What's sooo wrong with the C12vr that everyone seems to hate it?

[G-3]

I have a choice between grabbing a C12vr (used) and a new U87 for some work that I'm doing, and was shocked to see some of the opinions on here after I did a thread search for the C12. I saw one reference to the vr standing for "very rotten". What's the deal?

I know, I know, my ears should be my guide. I'm just curious what gives. Whichever I take will be the "main" mic in my home studio. I record mostly Rap, and am currently using a Sure KSM32 through an Avalon Vt737sp. I "thought" either mic would be a step up.... but....

[G-3]

Originally posted by mdbeh
...far more importantly, it just doesn't sound that good, period.

Thanks for your opinion. Is this opinion as you said "period" regardless of cost, or are you saying for a 5K mic it is simply garbage (to your ears)?

Originally posted by mdbeh
There are a _lot_ of alternatives for the money. Try searching on "Hip-Hop Vocal Mic" or something similar--it's come up before. [/b]

Thanks for the advice... doing that is exactly what helped lead me toward the U87 in the first place. All things being equal, I just don't want to "pass up" a 5K mic without doing my homework first.

[entropy]

its been a while since i used (briefly) the VR and it was doo doo. not a patch on the original C12 which has an immediate presence, it just sits in the mix straight away. from my recollection the VR was dull and thin by comparison.

I'd put the C12VR up there with the AKG Solid Tube and the Neumann M147.

[G-3]

Originally posted by mdbeh
if it's about the same price as a new U87 (I thought your post implied that--could be wrong), I'd personally steer clear.

Nope... you're not wrong. You were spot on and took the post exactly as I meant it. Thanks for breaking down your impressions for me.

As always guys... thanks for the input.

[tele_player]

Lemme guess - you were looking at the one at Guitar Showcase, in Campbell, for about $2k?

[toledo3]

Originally posted by G-3
Thanks for your opinion. Is this opinion as you said "period" regardless of cost, or are you saying for a 5K mic it is simply garbage (to your ears)?

Thanks for the advice... doing that is exactly what helped lead me toward the U87 in the first place. All things being equal, I just don't want to "pass up" a 5K mic without doing my homework first.

Klaus Heyne pointed out to me a few things about the U87 that had me kicking myself in the ass for selling the one I had to buy "more" gear a few years back, now that I am considering purchasing another "money" mic. I will paraphrase...

1- It sounds pretty good on most, if not all vocals and instruments.

2- It's a mature design with a very good capsule, and can be serviced for the forseeable future.

3- You will be able to sell it for the price you bought it for (or close to it).

4- It is can be upgraded to compete with mics costing 3 to 4 times as much. There is not any other mic you can say that about.

I don't think Klaus will mind me posting that Very interesting take, that I hadn't quite considered.

[JTD]

Hello
I have had extensive experience with both the U 87 and C-12 VR and C-12.
The C 12 VR is no C 12. The C-12 VR is a good mic but the C-12 is an incredible mic. What AKG and Neumann have both done in the last 25 years is what most corporations do when they have history...they neede to boost their profits and what better way than to ride thier reputation all the way to the bank= make and sell more mics than we used to, cut costs as much as possible , where ever possible, and bank on our reputation that we built years ago when we produced the greatest miccs ever. That said I once owned 2 C 12 VR mics...and sold them both. I sold one to an analog type studio and the other to an L.A. based engineer. Both got tremendous use out of them. The engineer ended up renting his out to sessions he was working on and the mic has paid for itself several times over!!!! In fact, it has been used on several "hit" records by A-list artists , who actually requested and or liked the way it sounded on their voice!?!?! 2 of these artists are worth over 100 million dollars!!! so they can afford to rent/buy whatever they want (it always confused me as to why people with money will spend $2500 to RENT a mic for each album they record instead of actually finding one that they love and buy it??). Anyways, my point is I sold them both because I felt like I was ripped off, but they loved using them so...however, for the money (and this goes for ANY NEW Neumann mic, including the M149 and M150) Nemann and AKG can be easily outperformed by many other smaller (like AKG and Neumann once were) mic manufacturers. Dont spend(waste) your money on a name brand just because they once made the best mics in the world. They don't today. All you have to do is get a new U 87 and put it up against an older (60's) U 87 and you will see (hear) what I mean. Neumann and AKG just bank on their reputation, and on the fact that most musician's don't do the research, but just want to use what everyone else is (was) using. Here are a few alternatives for you.
1. Buy a Lawson-you GET what you pay for- a great mic at a great price.
2. Buy an Audio Technica AT 60 (their tube mic) and then invest in some custom cables for it (email me if you want more info on that-I dont want to get off topic). The right cabling will turn a great mic into a magical one.
3. Budget version- go to www.mojaveaudio.com and buy one of their kits. For about $400.00, you WILL get a mic that sounds as good as an AKG C-12VR!!!! You have to put it together, but when you hear it, you will be amazed what a little bit of money can buy.
Every single one of these alternatives were once suggested to me and they won't disappoint you. Hope that helps. JTD.

[JTD]

One more thing if you want to improve your mic'd sound...and it's free!!!!
If you use external mic pre's,(which most musicians do now), move it close to your source that you are recording. Many musicians want the racks in the control room to be full of pretty gear so that it can be admired (me too . But this is a big no no . All of your external mic pre's should be in the live room, close to the source being recorded. The cable from the mic to the mic pre should not be any longer than 10 ft (6-8 ft preferably). The cable from your mic pre to you recorder or converters should be no longer than 25 ft. My point is, the shorter the better, especially for the mic cable-this is the most important one. Try it and see what you think.
If you notice, there is a trend towards remote controlled mic pre's in high end mic pre's and recording desks (consoles). There is a reason for that. Engineers are discovering the benefits of having short cable runs, especially from the mic to the mic pre.

[G-3]

Originally posted by tele_player
Lemme guess - you were looking at the one at Guitar Showcase, in Campbell, for about $2k?

You my friend are correct.

@ JTD - Wow, thanks. I'm going to go ahead and take you up on that e-mail offer.

[wurly]

I currently own 2- C12VR's. Bought 'em used, one was $1000, I don't remember what the other one cost.

My other LD's: MagMic (yum), Neumann 147&149, Gefell CMV 563 w. Blue B6.

For $2000, it's probably worth consideration. AFAIK, their used value has been going up for the last few years. You should be able to use the mic for a few years and sell it for no loss or make money on it.

A stock VR is a good but not amazing microphone, definitely not worth buying new. I had the capsules replaced in mine with the original hand-made brass ring CK12 capsules, and that made a HUGE improvement. On grand piano, they are absolutely amazing. And electric guitars. And vocals......

I agree that AKG and Neumann are whoring out their lines and living on past glory, but for 2K used, it could be a smart move.

YMMV

JR Whir Lee
Appearing soon at NAMM
Hall E, booth 1829

Pimping guitar slides and mic stands

[thethrillfactor]

Not all C12VR's sound a like.

I compare it to the Focusrite Red 3.

The original run of the C12VR's sound stellar(the one's all the hype is based on). They sound closer to the original's than the latter one's(probably what most people have).

Same goes for the Red 3.

Most people who use them, thought that it was way over rated also.

The originals sound different than the one's that are selling now.

[Imagine]

I paid around $2000 for a new C12vr. I also own an AT4060 and sold the Neumann 103. I couldn't stand the sound out of that mic.

In any case the C12 IMO is a good mic. I've used it several times on a very well known artist who swears by it. We had the choice to try anything, but the C12 was the favorite.

My next investment is a Tele 251.

[drumdude]

has anyone out there heard the new tele. C-12.................inquiring ears want to know!

[G-3]

Thanks guys... picked up my new U87ai last night.