Analog summing versus Hybrid?

[AMIEL]

you must be considering scenario 1 & 2 hybrid right???

[Ackman]

I'm considering all three. Scenario 3is based on the points folks have made about the increased phatness and clarity I should receive with analog summing versus ITB summing with analog pre+comp+eq on the 2-buss final mix. What are your thoughts?

[AMIEL]

I would get first a good converter as LYNX aurora o APOGEE!

then anything else!!
I think a Vari mu would be cool!!
I am curious about Culture Vulture and I don't know if is to radical for that purposes

[Ackman]

Thanks, that's helpful feedback. I'm happy with the quality that I'm getting from my Benchmark DAC1, but if I opt for analog summing I am going to need more channels, thus the Apogee DA16x. My problem really is, I'm not sure how much better (if any) summing in analog versus ITB. The threads that I've read on summing are not overwhelming in favor of analog although it tends to generally favor analog summing versus digital. I'll keep reading about and eventually make a decision.

I've heard the Manley Vari-Mu and really like it. But I've also heard some great things about the Culture Vulture as a way to inject color (valve distortion harmonics) into the mix that will give me that phat analog (less digital) sound that I'm after. The Culture Vulture appears to be versatile in that it can be used subtley or radically like you mentioned. Fatso can do similar (not all the same) coloring as well.

So that's where I am now. Again, thanks for your feedback.

[numrologst]

going outside the box for mixing is gonna do more for you than any stereo compressor will.

What kind of music are you doing?

You gotta get to where you aren't processing in and out, in and out.

But first you gotta get out of the box.

Nothing's gonna take the digital out of digital. You can fatten tracks, but digital tracks are always gonna sound like digital tracks.

You already have a colored eq and colored preamp. But you gotta stop thinking about injecting color and gluing things together...Color isn't the end all be all of recording. I have alot of so-called color boxes and it doesn't make a lick of a difference by the time the mixes are done. Color, Tape-like, glue, liquid, gooey, warmth are all cool terms to throw out there...But they really distract from the point, which is getting your mixes to sounds nice. All the color boxes in the world won't get you far unless all the other pieces are there. Sure 1176's, distressors, neve comps, etc have their own tone, but when everything is said and done whatever works, works. I don't really know what I am trying to say anymore, but maybe don't just rely on what you think color is and what glue is and what a gooey compressor is.


That being said, alot of you color is there if you are tracking through the pacifica. But a folcrom--->Pacifica----->1968----->eq2nv would provide you with a nice summing setup. That's gonna do you more than just adding a stereo color box.

Drawmer 1968
Apogee da16x
Folcrom
2 distressors

That's what I say you should do. That would cost you around $7000 + shipping if you go the right dealer.. Maybe save a little extra cash and go for that setup... Or that setup minus the distressors, and just buy the distressors further down the line.

But you defnately gotta get to where you are mixing outside the box without reprints.

[raal]

not gonna bore everyone by repeating my point of view again, but let's just say i don't necessarily agree with numrologist, though his list of gear is nice.

on the folcrom thread there's a similar discussion if you want to take a look.

[3rd world order]

hiphop?

i'd start banging my mixes thru the fatso and see how that works and adjust from there... (see DiscoD threads on fatso use)

Thermionic Culture Vulture would be something i'd prolly more use for synth hooks and that kind of processing... Varimu doesnt have enuff color for hiphop IMO.. Folcrom u'll prolly get at some point... you may wanna look at the Speck Xsum too.. got an Xtramix i use to sum stems and the difference is HUGE vs ITB on drum sounds.. especially if you have some analog compressors to bang sounds thru... i'd upgrade summing before i'd upgrade D/A, you already have a DAC-1 for monitoring so you'll know if you're damaging things inside protools at least..

never used the 1968 so i have no opinion.

[mauroiul]

Just a curiosity...How can you use external analogic gears with only 2 outputs from your cards???
I’m asking that because I’ m setting up a studio and if I think about having some external gears for mix, I cannot imagine having less the 8 outputs (2 for monitors, 2 headphone monitoring, and 4 for the gears)…am I wrong? Is there a different and better system???

[Black Seal]

You'll definitely need an ssl type comp or something with a high pass filter on it for hip-hop.
API 2500
Rolls Super Stereo Comp
SSL G comp
Alan Smart C1,C2
I believe all of those have feed forward designs which are more aggresive. The apogee DA would allow you plenty of room expand with other in gear in the future. The Folcrom would all depend on the preamp you use to boost the signal after summing. It seems like going for a modern sound you'll want something clean, but not sterile after the folcrom. My personal setup I use a speck x-sum summing mixer followed by an API2500 bus comp set at 2:1 on the 2 bus. Don't forget about some inexpensive comps like the DBX 160. Gets a lotta mileage with me for hip hop. Plenty of options so don't go into things too quickly. Keep on doing your research!
Perry

[Ackman]

Originally Posted by numrologst

going outside the box for mixing is gonna do more for you than any stereo compressor will.

What kind of music are you doing?

You gotta get to where you aren't processing in and out, in and out.

But first you gotta get out of the box.

Nothing's gonna take the digital out of digital. You can fatten tracks, but digital tracks are always gonna sound like digital tracks.

You already have a colored eq and colored preamp. But you gotta stop thinking about injecting color and gluing things together...Color isn't the end all be all of recording. I have alot of so-called color boxes and it doesn't make a lick of a difference by the time the mixes are done. Color, Tape-like, glue, liquid, gooey, warmth are all cool terms to throw out there...But they really distract from the point, which is getting your mixes to sounds nice. All the color boxes in the world won't get you far unless all the other pieces are there. Sure 1176's, distressors, neve comps, etc have their own tone, but when everything is said and done whatever works, works. I don't really know what I am trying to say anymore, but maybe don't just rely on what you think color is and what glue is and what a gooey compressor is.


That being said, alot of you color is there if you are tracking through the pacifica. But a folcrom--->Pacifica----->1968----->eq2nv would provide you with a nice summing setup. That's gonna do you more than just adding a stereo color box.

Drawmer 1968
Apogee da16x
Folcrom
2 distressors

That's what I say you should do. That would cost you around $7000 + shipping if you go the right dealer.. Maybe save a little extra cash and go for that setup... Or that setup minus the distressors, and just buy the distressors further down the line.

But you defnately gotta get to where you are mixing outside the box without reprints.

Dude, thanks for your response - you are making much sense and have me thinking about things I haven't though about. I've heard some of these things on here in pieces, but you tied some things togther. Don't worry dude, I don't have a crush on you or anything, but this is the kind of feedback I was looking for. Ohh - Hiphop, R&B and some Pop are some of the music that I do.

[Ackman]

Originally Posted by 3rd world order

hiphop?

i'd start banging my mixes thru the fatso and see how that works and adjust from there... (see DiscoD threads on fatso use)

Thermionic Culture Vulture would be something i'd prolly more use for synth hooks and that kind of processing... Varimu doesnt have enuff color for hiphop IMO.. Folcrom u'll prolly get at some point... you may wanna look at the Speck Xsum too.. got an Xtramix i use to sum stems and the difference is HUGE vs ITB on drum sounds.. especially if you have some analog compressors to bang sounds thru... i'd upgrade summing before i'd upgrade D/A, you already have a DAC-1 for monitoring so you'll know if you're damaging things inside protools at least..

never used the 1968 so i have no opinion.

Thanks dude - good points -> I'll check out the Speck Xsum and Xtramix. If I sum OTB I will need more DA channels than the two I currently have, thus the DA16x. I've heard good things about the Fatso and am thinking I can really benefit. Thanks again.

[Ackman]

Originally Posted by mauroiul

Just a curiosity...How can you use external analogic gears with only 2 outputs from your cards???
I’m asking that because I’ m setting up a studio and if I think about having some external gears for mix, I cannot imagine having less the 8 outputs (2 for monitors, 2 headphone monitoring, and 4 for the gears)…am I wrong? Is there a different and better system???

Your on point with this. I spend a lot of time mixing because currently I mix each track and each sub mix buss indenpendently OTB back ITB two tracks at a time. The result is pretty good but if I don't get something quite right I have to redo it. The down side is that you don't get to hear the complete mix until everything has made that round trip and then you end up doing some tweaking for final balance. The upside is that I have the freedom to use all of my Outboard gear on each buss separately. This obviously creates a workflow issue which I would like to improve. BTW I use the same gear on the front-end for vocals, outboard sound modules and live guitar. Hope that helps.

[Ackman]

Originally Posted by Black Seal

You'll definitely need an ssl type comp or something with a high pass filter on it for hip-hop.
API 2500
Rolls Super Stereo Comp
SSL G comp
Alan Smart C1,C2
I believe all of those have feed forward designs which are more aggresive. The apogee DA would allow you plenty of room expand with other in gear in the future. The Folcrom would all depend on the preamp you use to boost the signal after summing. It seems like going for a modern sound you'll want something clean, but not sterile after the folcrom. My personal setup I use a speck x-sum summing mixer followed by an API2500 bus comp set at 2:1 on the 2 bus. Don't forget about some inexpensive comps like the DBX 160. Gets a lotta mileage with me for hip hop. Plenty of options so don't go into things too quickly. Keep on doing your research!
Perry

Thanks Perry!

[zak7]

Originally Posted by numrologst

You already have a colored eq and colored preamp. But you gotta stop thinking about injecting color and gluing things together...Color isn't the end all be all of recording. I have alot of so-called color boxes and it doesn't make a lick of a difference by the time the mixes are done. Color, Tape-like, glue, liquid, gooey, warmth are all cool terms to throw out there...But they really distract from the point, which is getting your mixes to sounds nice. All the color boxes in the world won't get you far unless all the other pieces are there. Sure 1176's, distressors, neve comps, etc have their own tone, but when everything is said and done whatever works, works. I don't really know what I am trying to say anymore, but maybe don't just rely on what you think color is and what glue is and what a gooey compressor is.

.

I am totally agree with you on that!!! you made me dizzy!!

[MDee]

Originally Posted by Ackman

I've read many of the summing threads on the debate between analog summing and digital (and some hybrid of digital and analog). I have a 6K budget and at a crossroads with direction. I do mostly hip-hop/ r&b and some pop. The extent of my analog instruments are vocals and guitar. Rythm, bass and synths are via sound modules.

My set-up is:
AKG C414B ->
Pacifica Preamp ->
GR EQ-2NV (also used for mixing out and back ITB) ->
Pendulum OCL2 (also used for mixing out and back ITB) ->
Apogee AD16x ->
Cubase SX3 ->
Benchmark DAC1 -> (both mixing via outboard to back ITB and monitoring) ->
Adam A7

I will be purchasing a Audio Accesories Shorti patchbay to increase my workflow since I'm currently going behind the racks with a flashlight.

I'm thinking of 3 different scenarios, but wanted the advice of sluts out there on which one would be the most bang for my buck. Other scenarios are welcomed:

Scenario 1 (Digital Summing; currently)
1) Fatso or Culture Vulture to add warmth and tape/analog phat-ness
2) Drammer 1968 to add a complimentary comp to my OCL-2 which I love

Scenario 2 (Digital Summing; currently doing)
1) Manley Vari-Mu as a complimentary comp with enough color and glue for drum submixes and overall mixes

Scenario 3 (Analog Summing; change)
1) Apogee DA16x to separate tracks coming OTB
2) Folcrum 16 for analog summing

So the question is, what purchases can I make for 5K (6K - patchbay purchase) that would give me the biggest boost?

Thanks,

This is exactly what I went through a few months ago.
I do hip hop and pop so I like Maximum bass. I use alot of out board gear api, prism, neve, etc.. I was looking for a summing solution and after experimenting with alot of options I ended up getting 2 Folcrom with The Neve 1073DPD and a Roll Super Stereo 755 for the insert. This works nice for me very warm but clear. IMO it makes a big difference compared to ITB.

BTW That Roll 755 is a Monster with the low end.

[mauroiul]

Originally Posted by Ackman

Your on point with this. I spend a lot of time mixing because currently I mix each track and each sub mix buss indenpendently OTB back ITB two tracks at a time. The result is pretty good but if I don't get something quite right I have to redo it. The down side is that you don't get to hear the complete mix until everything has made that round trip and then you end up doing some tweaking for final balance. The upside is that I have the freedom to use all of my Outboard gear on each buss separately. This obviously creates a workflow issue which I would like to improve. BTW I use the same gear on the front-end for vocals, outboard sound modules and live guitar. Hope that helps.

Whaoo...I could never do that anymore!!! It reminds of when I used to ping pong tracks to free some of the eigth available...I would rather loose some quality...but it's just me!

[Ackman]

Originally Posted by MDee

This is exactly what I went through a few months ago.
I do hip hop and pop so I like Maximum bass. I use alot of out board gear api, prism, neve, etc.. I was looking for a summing solution and after experimenting with alot of options I ended up getting 2 Folcrom with The Neve 1073DPD and a Roll Super Stereo 755 for the insert. This works nice for me very warm but clear. IMO it makes a big difference compared to ITB.

BTW That Roll 755 is a Monster with the low end.

Thanks man. Just the kind of feedback I was looking for. Very helpful info.

[Ackman]

Originally Posted by mauroiul

Whaoo...I could never do that anymore!!! It reminds of when I used to ping pong tracks to free some of the eigth available...I would rather loose some quality...but it's just me!

I'm with you homey.... thus the budget to on to a better workflow and quality set-up. I have a system to it, but admitedly its near exhausting by the time I get to the final mix. I will not be doing this much longer once I settle on a direction. This thread has helped me tremendously.

[numrologst]

also in my opinion there is no substitute for getting the summing out of the computer... I mixed in the box for a long long time...

After I got my console, there was no looking back. For me, the difference was night and day. I went on vacation over xmas and i brought my macbook and some songs to work on... I couldn't even do it, i lasted about 30 minutes in the box and I doubt I'll try it ever again.

So I would definately grab a folcrom... I've seen them used on the board for like $400-$500...

[Ackman]

Originally Posted by numrologst

also in my opinion there is no substitute for getting the summing out of the computer... I mixed in the box for a long long time...

After I got my console, there was no looking back. For me, the difference was night and day. I went on vacation over xmas and i brought my macbook and some songs to work on... I couldn't even do it, i lasted about 30 minutes in the box and I doubt I'll try it ever again.

So I would definately grab a folcrom... I've seen them used on the board for like $400-$500...

Cool. It's looking more and more like mixing OTB is the direction I'm going in, for many of the reasons that you and many others have pointed out.

I really like the idea of the folcrom becasue of the price, simplicity and quality. And, I could use my Pacifica as the preamp.

The Nicerizer sounds intriguing, but given the support issues I'm hearing about I'm a little hesitant, and it's costly in comparison, besides it sounds like I would be paying the extra for its built-in colored pre, when I could use the pre that I have. I run into the same cost/benefit argument with other active summing boxes that look attractive (Speck Mix, Dangerous, Equinox).

I'll look around for a good deal on the folcrom, but if I have to go new, that's okay too.

[3rd world order]

Originally Posted by Ackman

Thanks dude - good points -> I'll check out the Speck Xsum and Xtramix. If I sum OTB I will need more DA channels than the two I currently have, thus the DA16x. I've heard good things about the Fatso and am thinking I can really benefit. Thanks again.

the reason i say i'd upgrade summing BEFORE D/A is that i can make usable mixes with the D/A of a digi 001 if i have a germ and some decent (speck) summing and outboard... to me, the mixer and outboard make more of an impact than the D/A does... and the 001 is pretty bad... but you learn to compensate for it.. i dont think you can learn to compensate for shitty digital summing...

that said, if you can get an apogee DA-16X go for it.. i know i would if i could.

[Ackman]

Originally Posted by 3rd world order

the reason i say i'd upgrade summing BEFORE D/A is that i can make usable mixes with the D/A of a digi 001 if i have a germ and some decent (speck) summing and outboard... to me, the mixer and outboard make more of an impact than the D/A does... and the 001 is pretty bad... but you learn to compensate for it.. i dont think you can learn to compensate for shitty digital summing...

that said, if you can get an apogee DA-16X go for it.. i know i would if i could.

I see what you're saying now. That makes sense. Thanks.

[Zwinter]

Originally Posted by 3rd world order

the reason i say i'd upgrade summing BEFORE D/A is that i can make usable mixes with the D/A of a digi 001 if i have a germ and some decent (speck) summing and outboard... to me, the mixer and outboard make more of an impact than the D/A does... and the 001 is pretty bad... but you learn to compensate for it.. i dont think you can learn to compensate for shitty digital summing...

that said, if you can get an apogee DA-16X go for it.. i know i would if i could.

Well, I don't know if I would agree with that statement. Sure, most of us can't upgrade everything at the same time and consequently have to do it one piece at a time, but why ruin outboard summing with crappy converters? Further, everything in the signal chain will have an affect on the overall tonal quality. So don't think for a minute that your converters aren't ultra important. Ultimately I wouldn't discount the importance of good quality AD/DA.

[3rd world order]

Originally Posted by Zwinter

Well, I don't know if I would agree with that statement. Sure, most of us can't upgrade everything at the same time and consequently have to do it one piece at a time, but why ruin outboard summing with crappy converters? Further, everything in the signal chain will have an affect on the overall tonal quality. So don't think for a minute that your converters aren't ultra important. Ultimately I wouldn't discount the importance of good quality AD/DA.

i'm not arguing this at all... had i more money i'd line up for a DA-16X like everyone else. i'm just saying i'd upgrade summing BEFORE D/A.. especially since this guy has a DAC-1 to monitor thru (unless i'm confusing threads again). I said shitty D/A is a lot easier to compensate for (especially if you have a rack of outboard to run stuff thru) than mixing ITB. and also.. when i did the stuff with the 001 i still had 2 channels of HEDD in the fray for "pretty" stuff.. so i could do a passable job of covering up the cheap converters...

OF COURSE you wanna sell D/As too.. yer a freakin sales weasel. i'm selling nothing. also, show me all this subtle depth in modern recordings... it call gets the crap smashed out of it in mastering by the L2..

if you're giving me a choice between buying a mid grade summing mixer and a 1/4" machine to mix to and dropping the same money on a DA-16X i'll take tape/summing 10/10 times.

[GearHunter]

Just my two and a half cents: The Vulture is not too over the top. I mean, it can be MADE to be gnarly clipping distructo-tone, but it can also gently warm, like a baby's bum.

[Zwinter]

Originally Posted by 3rd world order

i'm not arguing this at all... had i more money i'd line up for a DA-16X like everyone else. i'm just saying i'd upgrade summing BEFORE D/A.. especially since this guy has a DAC-1 to monitor thru (unless i'm confusing threads again). I said shitty D/A is a lot easier to compensate for (especially if you have a rack of outboard to run stuff thru) than mixing ITB. and also.. when i did the stuff with the 001 i still had 2 channels of HEDD in the fray for "pretty" stuff.. so i could do a passable job of covering up the cheap converters...

OF COURSE you wanna sell D/As too.. yer a freakin sales weasel. i'm selling nothing. also, show me all this subtle depth in modern recordings... it call gets the crap smashed out of it in mastering by the L2..

if you're giving me a choice between buying a mid grade summing mixer and a 1/4" machine to mix to and dropping the same money on a DA-16X i'll take tape/summing 10/10 times.

Yeah, I definitely work for a sales company, there's no hiding that fact, which is why I made sure to include reasoning for my opinion. Recording is like cooking, the end result is only as good as the ingredients. If you use rotten or bad tasting food you are going to end up with a bad tasting dish, and no amount of salt will fix that...because then you will only have overly salted bad food. Think about the last time you went and had sea food that was too old and probably should have been thrown out. You can salt it and add garlic, but that bad fishy taste is not going to go away.

So if you invest in a great summing box and keep your terrible DA converters you will then end up with a more accurate sum of your terrible sounding converters. It's the same things as recording a crappy sounding guitar with great equipment...crap in is going to equal crap out.

[3rd world order]

Originally Posted by Zwinter

Yeah, I definitely work for a sales company, there's no hiding that fact, which is why I made sure to include reasoning for my opinion. Recording is like cooking, the end result is only as good as the ingredients. If you use rotten or bad tasting food you are going to end up with a bad tasting dish, and no amount of salt will fix that...because then you will only have overly salted bad food. Think about the last time you went and had sea food that was too old and probably should have been thrown out. You can salt it and add garlic, but that bad fishy taste is not going to go away.

So if you invest in a great summing box and keep your terrible DA converters you will then end up with a more accurate sum of your terrible sounding converters. It's the same things as recording a crappy sounding guitar with great equipment...crap in is going to equal crap out.

your analogy is nice but melodramatic... you can still cook with a $5000 stove or a $25 coleman gas burner...

in a perfect world we'd all have $3000 D/As... but is it the most important thing? No... and i dont expect a sales weasel to know the difference or have any sense of priority.

[raal]

Originally Posted by 3rd world order

No... and i dont expect a sales weasel to know the difference or have any sense of priority.

chill dude.

[Zwinter]

Originally Posted by 3rd world order

your analogy is nice but melodramatic... you can still cook with a $5000 stove or a $25 coleman gas burner...

in a perfect world we'd all have $3000 D/As... but is it the most important thing? No... and i dont expect a sales weasel to know the difference or have any sense of priority.

Last time I checked I hadn't ever eaten heat, but I do eat food. So I your analogy about the stoves would be great if we were talking about power and whether somebody used a UPS.

I am not trying to say converters are the most important part. I am sorry if you feel that I am trying to say that. My point continues to be the sum is equal to the parts, which is why we use the term "signal chain." Yes, this stuff is a chain and just like a chain it is only as strong as it weakest part. I don't expect anyone to immediately go out and spend their kids college fund on gear, but I also want to be realistic about somebody’s signal chain will sound like and what can be improved. We can all look toward the future, upgrading things piece by piece. I just think its absurd to say converters are the least important item in the chain. It's all important and we need to be aware of the importance.

As a musician and engineer I am always looking at improving my sounds. I am not rich, and like everyone else upgrade one piece at a time. I remember years ago when I really wanted a new alto sax. Sure I really wanted the new sax and a great mouth piece, but there was only so much money. So I got the sax and while it improved my tone I new there was still room for improvement. Probably 6 months or a year later I saved up enough money to get the mouth piece and, wow, what a difference; both items were great on their own, but the sum of both parts is what I really wanted.