Waves L2: analog limiter for the "loudest snare" hits?

[zulusound]

Hey there,
I have noticed on a few mixes I have done lately that I have had to bring the whole mix down by about 4 db because of a couple loud snare hits making it go over digital 0. I tried using automation on those hits, but this made it sound small. I would like to find a limiter that only shaves off these few transients, it's probably only a few samples anyway. Not used as a 2 buss limiter, but specifically for snare and/ or toms.

Can the hardware version of the Waves L2 work for this (analog in/ analog out), or does it have latency? I have a Crane Song HEDD and would like that to remain my A/D converter in mix down. Any other ideas for good brick wall, invisible limiting with quick clamp down?

Thanks.

Evan in Seattle

[PDC]

Originally Posted by zulusound

Hey there,
I have noticed on a few mixes I have done lately that I have had to bring the whole mix down by about 4 db because of a couple loud snare hits making it go over digital 0. I tried using automation on those hits, but this made it sound small. I would like to find a limiter that only shaves off these few transients, it's probably only a few samples anyway. Not used as a 2 buss limiter, but specifically for snare and/ or toms.

Can the hardware version of the Waves L2 work for this (analog in/ analog out), or does it have latency? I have a Crane Song HEDD and would like that to remain my A/D converter in mix down. Any other ideas for good brick wall, invisible limiting with quick clamp down?

Thanks.

Evan in Seattle

The hardware version is running the same math as the TDM plug in I think.

[Darius van H]

Originally Posted by zulusound

Hey there,
I have noticed on a few mixes I have done lately that I have had to bring the whole mix down by about 4 db because of a couple loud snare hits making it go over digital 0. I tried using automation on those hits, but this made it sound small. I would like to find a limiter that only shaves off these few transients, it's probably only a few samples anyway. Not used as a 2 buss limiter, but specifically for snare and/ or toms.

Can the hardware version of the Waves L2 work for this (analog in/ analog out), or does it have latency? I have a Crane Song HEDD and would like that to remain my A/D converter in mix down. Any other ideas for good brick wall, invisible limiting with quick clamp down?

Thanks.

Evan in Seattle

the L2 might not be the best choice for this.

Different limiters have different "knees" or limiting characteristics. The L2 is a very low distortion limiter, but correspondingly it also removes a lot of "punch"........something you might consider very important in a snare drum (or not).

At the other end of the limiting spectrum is pure clipping (digital or electronic), which will sound a lot more punchy, but will be much higher in distortion.

In between these 2 extremes are a plethora of choices, analog, digital etc.........in the pre-digital days, tape had the nice by-product of shaving off these transients for you.

Like tape, there are other tools that would not generally be considered "limiters", which would get the job (limiting transients) done, possibly in a euphonically pleasing way......

Hope this helps............D

[mixerguy]

to be honest - I cant imagine using a hardware L2 for this, personally

id go for a Distressor - in my opinion.

[lucey]

Originally Posted by zulusound

Hey there,
I have noticed on a few mixes I have done lately that I have had to bring the whole mix down by about 4 db because of a couple loud snare hits making it go over digital 0. I tried using automation on those hits, but this made it sound small. I would like to find a limiter that only shaves off these few transients, it's probably only a few samples anyway. Not used as a 2 buss limiter, but specifically for snare and/ or toms.

Can the hardware version of the Waves L2 work for this (analog in/ analog out), or does it have latency? I have a Crane Song HEDD and would like that to remain my A/D converter in mix down. Any other ideas for good brick wall, invisible limiting with quick clamp down?

Thanks.

Evan in Seattle

What about lowering the mix by 4db Evan, and leaving the punch in there for mastering?





If you really want a limiter the PL2 from Pendulum is fast and nice. Calistro usually has one. Transformerless Class A, and 2 modes ... each with a different sound (harder and softer).

[zulusound]

That's what I did. But, I would like the whole mix to have more resolution and level, what I'm trying to do is get maximum bit resolution/ average level and have my clients leave the mix session with a full sounding mix. If I'm just shaving off say 4 samples on a few snare hits I am not taking any of the punch away from the mix.. Like I said, I would only use it on the snare and/or tom tracks.

Originally Posted by lucey

What about lowering the mix by 4db Evan, and leaving the punch in there for mastering?


If you really want a limiter the PL2 from Pendulum is fast and nice. Calistro usually has one. Transformerless Class A, and 2 modes ... each with a different sound (harder and softer).

[yeloocproducer]

If you're mixing in 24 bit, there's no reason to push your level so hard. Print lower. You're not going to miss out on resolution by going 4-5 db lower with the mix. And it's better for the ME.

If you're printing back into the computer, just print two versions at the same time... one with a digital limiter on it for client listening purposes, and one with no limiting for the ME.

As far as those couple of unruly snares, distressor, tape, and pendulum have all been good suggestions.

[PDC]

Originally Posted by zulusound

That's what I did. But, I would like the whole mix to have more resolution and level, what I'm trying to do is get maximum bit resolution/ average level and have my clients leave the mix session with a full sounding mix. If I'm just shaving off say 4 samples on a few snare hits I am not taking any of the punch away from the mix.. Like I said, I would only use it on the snare and/or tom tracks.

You are limited to you initial sample rate and bit depth for resolution. If you recorded at 24-bits, then that is what you have. There is no sliding scale. All that you have the ability to do is determine how your dynamic range is represented by those bits. You cannot "shave off" samples unless you sample rate convert down to 16 bits.

[SoZo]

How would Apogees soft limit do on a snare?

[Mike Caffrey]

Originally Posted by zulusound

That's what I did. But, I would like the whole mix to have more resolution and level, what I'm trying to do is get maximum bit resolution/ average level and have my clients leave the mix session with a full sounding mix. If I'm just shaving off say 4 samples on a few snare hits I am not taking any of the punch away from the mix.. Like I said, I would only use it on the snare and/or tom tracks.

You're not shaving off 4 samples, you're shaving off 4dB.

If you peak limit the snare, you're going ot have the sound of a pillow with some wires arcoss the bottom. You wont want fullness and maximum bit rate at that point.

What is you're target bit rate? Do you want to be running at OdBFS? That's a bad idea becuase you're going to run into CD players that can't handle that and will distort.

What you want is mastering.

For clients print your mix, then audio suite it with the L1/L2 at a threhold of -4dB and you'll have what you need for the client.

[zulusound]

Maybe I'm not being clear. Let's say I have a mix going and ONLY ONE SNARE HIT is making me lower my the whole stereo mix by 4 db, so I don't go into digital red. The peak transient of this snare hit is probably only a few samples long. I want to brickwall those samples only (not every snare hit), so I can bring the whole mix up. I'm just talking about the snare track. I certainly don't want to limit the whole mix. I usually mix at 24/96, going analog into my HEDD.

Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey

You're not shaving off 4 samples, you're shaving off 4dB.

If you peak limit the snare, you're going ot have the sound of a pillow with some wires arcoss the bottom. You wont want fullness and maximum bit rate at that point.

What is you're target bit rate? Do you want to be running at OdBFS? That's a bad idea becuase you're going to run into CD players that can't handle that and will distort.

What you want is mastering.

For clients print your mix, then audio suite it with the L1/L2 at a threhold of -4dB and you'll have what you need for the client.

[lucey]

Originally Posted by zulusound

That's what I did. But, I would like the whole mix to have more resolution and level, what I'm trying to do is get maximum bit resolution/ average level and have my clients leave the mix session with a full sounding mix. If I'm just shaving off say 4 samples on a few snare hits I am not taking any of the punch away from the mix.. Like I said, I would only use it on the snare and/or tom tracks.

Just clip it for the client and send the nice one to mastering.

And you're never limiting a "whole mix", only what peaks above the limiter. So the HEDD 192 can be clipped, and there you go. Then back it off at the master fader or last gain stage of outboard, and print a clean one.

Sorry, but I dont see why it's better to buy/insert a limiter, but not to clip it a little for the clients car?

[yeloocproducer]

Lucey said it best, buy yeah if the couple of snare transients are the loudest thing by 4 db, and you limit the "whole mix" for a listening copy by 3-4 db the only things that will be limited are the snare transients. 24 bits have an ungodly amount of dynamic range; you def. won't miss the 4 db on your printed mix once it's been mastered and dithered down to 16. If you want it hotter for the client's 16 bit listening copy, then limit the mix with your choice of digital limiter and be done (quasi-mastering).

Other variants on above posts if you need to address the snare track specifically: if you're in plug-in land, maybe try massey's tape, analog channel, etc. with a proper threshold on the snare track to reign in transients by adding subtle distortion to the loudest hits. I don't dig apogee soft limit on anything really. It's really only good to prevent digital overloads while tracking... and even then I'd rather just track quieter b/c 24 bits has lots of room.

If there aren't that many snares having a problem and they're out in the open, you could also find the bad ones and replace them/ edit them out with snares from other more consistent parts of the song... but that's probably obvious.

[PDC]

or better yet. Leave it and tell the band that that will be proof that it was NOT a sample, WAS mixed out of the box, With dynamics...something most music doesn't have.

[Musiclab]

If your going to buy something because of one snare hit, don't by L2, get yourself a nice
compressor made for this app like the SSL the manley, or quite a few others, there's a big difference in the sound of a compressor like say the SSL than something nasty like L2. It leaves much less play for the ME and if it's used needs to be used VERY judiciously
not as something for the mix. I recommend using a buss compressor because I like the "glue" it imparts and I believe using it makes for a mix that will be more consistent when it comes back from mastering. But NOT a limiter.

[yeloocproducer]

Not too sure but I'm guessing a snare hit 4 db too loud is not the kind of dynamics even the most diehard analog cats would be thrilled over but I like the spirit of that. Actually, I'm guessing this was tracked digital to begin with which is probably part of the problem. If not... get the razor blade out for a hard-core old school "window" edit? *joke*

[GSF]

You're on a daw, right?

Just automate that offending snare hit down a few db and you can keep the basic transient.

[u b k]

i'm with lucey, screw that one hit, let it fly into the red. every major album on the radio does it on every single drum transient, if you're only doing it on one i'd say you're in pretty good shape.

ime there's a gap between when a daw's red light comes on and when i hear something offensive.


gregoire
del
ubk
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[Mike Caffrey]

There's not going to be just one single snare hit 4 samples long clipping by 4dB. Anything 4dB louder than the rest is going to sustain for more thna 4 samples.

It's probably an indication of problems within the mix.

But hypothetically, I agree with turning the whole mix up and letting it clip or automating the one snare hit. I'd be fine with clipping a dozen or maybe even all of them if they're 1/10,000 of a second or 1/10th of a millisecond long.

[Jam]

I'm probably missing something obvious here, but why not just automate the few "peaky" snare hits so the levels are where you want them ?

Jam

[Beardhead]

What about replacing those loud hits with decent ones?
Claus

[groovepusher]

Did you try to reverse the phase on the snare for those few hits. That can help sometimes.

[zulusound]

The reason I don't want to replace the snare or automate it down, is it sounds right. It's a big fill, and it sounds good. It's played louder and it sounds different than a normal snare hit. I think it's a flam, as well. I just didn't want to lower the whole mix down by 4db when mixing it so I don't go over 0. I could give my client a pseudo master by bumping it back onto the computer, and running it through a UAD precision limiter, but I was hoping there was a piece of sub $2000 analog gear (other than a 2" machine) that would only catch the quickest transients and not change the sound of each snare hit. That's why I thought a brickwall limiter like the hardware L2 analog in and out on the snare would be good. But then I starting thinking about latency and being phase coherent-... Next time I will just use a plug in limiter.. But I prefer to use all outboard for everything but delays.

[Ghost Logic]

Just let the HEDD go into the red on those hits, you should be able to do it without any audible distortion--the HEDD is very forgiving with overs.

[Mike Caffrey]

Originally Posted by zulusound

The reason I don't want to replace the snare or automate it down, is it sounds right. It's a big fill, and it sounds good. It's played louder and it sounds different than a normal snare hit. I think it's a flam, as well. I just didn't want to lower the whole mix down by 4db when mixing it so I don't go over 0. I could give my client a pseudo master by bumping it back onto the computer, and running it through a UAD precision limiter, but I was hoping there was a piece of sub $2000 analog gear (other than a 2" machine) that would only catch the quickest transients and not change the sound of each snare hit. That's why I thought a brickwall limiter like the hardware L2 analog in and out on the snare would be good. But then I starting thinking about latency and being phase coherent-... Next time I will just use a plug in limiter.. But I prefer to use all outboard for everything but delays.

The Pendulum PL-2 is the only thing I know of. Or a Quartet II.

[adamcal]

Originally Posted by zulusound

That's what I did. But, I would like the whole mix to have more resolution and level, what I'm trying to do is get maximum bit resolution/ average level and have my clients leave the mix session with a full sounding mix. If I'm just shaving off say 4 samples on a few snare hits I am not taking any of the punch away from the mix.. Like I said, I would only use it on the snare and/or tom tracks.

ah, this is how it all started, a little bit, and little bit there, and now we have the limited flat top hell!


compress it if you want it to sound compressed, dont do it for the sake of "maximum level" on the master level meters.

you could be -10, -15 even -20 down below zero on a 24 bit master and still be better off than the 16bit file is going to end up as on CD.

[zwaps]

I don't see why you take any limiter and automate it -4db limit only when the peak occurs.

Using plugin automation, this can be done easily in any DAW (I mean, at least Sonar does it).

I constantly automate my limiter on drum tracks, so you should, too.

Edit: Oh I see, your analog. Well, good luck with only limiting very short peaks there.

[scotty-o]

Originally Posted by groovepusher

Did you try to reverse the phase on the snare for those few hits. That can help sometimes.

That's what I was going to suggest as well

-Scotty

[TER]

I think people have tried to point out the issue... but maybe I can clarify:

If you turn the snare down 4dB at the moments of the offensive hits you will have achieved the same result as limiting the mix by 4dB. In either case the snare comes down relative to the track at that moment, and in either case you can go ahead and turn the whole track up the 3.9dB to get you back to -.1dBFS or whatever peak level you want.

The hardware L2 does have latency.

My own experience with the HEDD is that it sounds much better when I run a realistic signal into it... say 0VU=+4dBm=-20dBFS. If you're printing back to a 24 bit file you will have all the "resolution" you need and it will sound better too. Not louder... and ref mixes are not SUPPOSED to compete level-wise with mastered discs. We all need to educate our clients about that. Mixes need to have headroom so that intelligent choices are still available to the mastering engineer.

Hand them the actualy mix you do, tell them "it's going to be quieter than a commercial cd until it's been mastered" and relax.

And if you still want to mash it, the HEDD does clip quite nicely... but be aware of what your analog electronics are having to do BEFORE the HEDD to get that kind of level there in the first place.

-20dBFS is pretty conservative... so let's say you're running -14dBFS=0VU=+4dBm. That means to clip the HEDD your last analog stage has to be putting out in excess of +18... or in the case of clipping the 4dB off the snare, +22. How clean is your last analog stage? The days of consoles happily putting out +28 seem to be gone with the +/-24VDC power supplies.

-tom

[u b k]

Originally Posted by TER

If you turn the snare down 4dB at the moments of the offensive hits you will have achieved the same result as limiting the mix by 4dB.

the same technical result, but a snare that's been ducked 4db will not sound the same as one whose transient has been brickwalled 4db. many people will perceive the latter to be more aggressive, more exciting. it can also sound weaker, depending on the original mix and the limiter's algo.

the suggestion to automate a limiting plug is a good one. keep the threshold above the mix and pull it down for the snare hits in question.

it sounds like the OP isn't thinking of this stuff as a solution for the final mix, just for the ref that clients can take home. i'm assuming a wide-open, quieter mix would be delivered as well for the client to take to mastering.


gregoire
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