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5 string bass... how to keep the lows even and tight?
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bdmctear
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#1
3rd January 2007
Old 3rd January 2007
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5 string bass... how to keep the lows even and tight?

I am tracking 5 string bass and it's just impossible to have these low strings sound decent. We have a Fender Jazz bass (passive) and a Washburn RB2500 (active). Looking for a trip-hop meets Police kind of sound.

Countryman Di > MCI JH400 console > Distressor

out from Di > Eden 800 bass amp > D12e > MCI console pre > Distressor

How do we keep it round and consistent with the lower strings? Any pointers much appreciated. (I have API 312s that weren't sounding as good).
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3rd January 2007
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If you are using a DAW You can try a multiband compressor - Wavearts has a low cost option which you can use while tracking if you want.

Tube Tech makes a multiband hardware version but it is a little pricey to buy just for one tracking session.

www.wavearts.com
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I do have plug ins, I was just hoping it could go in the way I want to hear it, you know what I mean?
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If you want to get the sound good on the way in you shouldn't overlook the bass itself.

Are the strings fresh?
Are the strings an appropriate gauge for the scale of the bass?
Is the intonation set correctly?
Is the B string settled into the nut properly?
Do the strings cross the bridge firmly and securely?

Furthermore, is the player striking the notes evenly and consistantly?

Compressors and other tools will help, but these fundamentals of bass tone need to be met first.


Hope this helps.
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3rd January 2007
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Multi-Band Compressor perchance?

The most obvious solution to this would be a multi-band compressor to tame the low end of the bass. They're expensive (I think Tube-Tech has one for around $4895.00) but hey , this is the High end Forum

While I've never done it, I think there's a way to accomplish the same thing by side-chaining an equalizer into your compressor so that it triggers the compressor at the offending frequencies of the low string. Sorry I can't be more explicit.

HTH

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3rd January 2007
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Are those basses 34" scale or 35"? Quite often 5-strings with 34" scales will have a flabbier sounding low B.
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Thanks, everyone. The Tube Tech sounds awesome. Problem is, the bassist is standing here next to me (right now... he says hi), so I doubt we could take a trip to the store and drop $5000 TODAY.

My guess is that we'll taylor the parts a bit, maybe cut two different takes of sections (one low, one hi).

We also stuffed some foam under the string right in front of the bridge. Seems to help.
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3rd January 2007
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BASS

Making basses sit in the mix is always one of the hardest and most important things to a fat musical sound.

Sometimes its so easy with the right bass, bass player, and bass part. However, here are a couple quick things to try if youre having trouble:

Try bandlimiting the bass. If you are doing a full band with drums, I would roll off some of the sub stuff, like 30 - 65 either with a Highpass, or a narrow band to get rid of the flappy, boomy stuff. Leave that for the kick drum. Analog tape and Bass amps can roll this stuff off automatically. Going direct to digital can let lots of rumble and other undesirable freqs come blaring through. Sometimes theres not much there, but other times its a disaster with boomy stuff that makes compressors chomp down and making the bass disappear. By cutting these boomy freqs, you will quickly find you can turn the bass up louder without the whole mix getting rumbly.

Sometimes you can pull some "woolly" low mids around 300, kind of narrow band. A similar affect is to add around 100Hz if necessary, and then midrange for clarity.. IE 600 to 2K. You can also roll off a little high end above 3-8K since lots of that is often just pick noise and hiss. I would generally say the most important bass freqs are between 80 and 2000Hz... but please dont tell anyone I said so. The 700 - 2K is high for a bass but contains lots of overtones on a bass that helps it cut through.

Compression is touchy on bass but usually necessary in todays mixes. EQuing before or after compression is an issue. Some people do both. If its really boomy, you may want to cut the subs after compression so the compressor doesn't try to just bring them back up. Sometimes before compression makes it tighter and more even, however.

A lot of how a bass sits is the bass part itself, as well as what is going on around it. Often you may want to highpass guitars to keep mud below 100 - 130Hz from clouding the bottom. Sometimes even highpassing much higher is necessary.

Dont forget what a bass amp can do. Miking a speaker often automatically highpasses the bass and adds the mid harmonics etc. If you have certain notes that just jump out, you may need to eq on them, or sidechain a compressor to push them back.

Lots of tricks for bass. Remember that a 5 string bass can produce tones so low that will not be reproduced on speakers. Your job is to shape the bass so you can hear and feel them without blatting or blowing up anyones system. When you solo the bass in front of the bass player and he wants to "feel" more low end, you may be in trouble! It's how the bass sits in the mix and works with everything, not how the bass player wants the hairs on his chest to vibrate.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdmctear View Post
I am tracking 5 string bass and it's just impossible to have these low strings sound decent. We have a Fender Jazz bass (passive) and a Washburn RB2500 (active). Looking for a trip-hop meets Police kind of sound.

Countryman Di > MCI JH400 console > Distressor

out from Di > Eden 800 bass amp > D12e > MCI console pre > Distressor

How do we keep it round and consistent with the lower strings? Any pointers much appreciated. (I have API 312s that weren't sounding as good).
It is probably not your gear. But it could be his. When it is a big issue like this is, I generally go to the source, unless I have been hired to mix then I am stuck. Strings, Bass, Pickup, Player could all factor. I did recently have a Washburn 4 string and a Washburn 5 string with same player pickups, strings (DR's the only consistant string IMO) ect. Played into the Ampeg SVT-VR/SVT Cab with an RE-20/DI Avalon U5. Mic Pre Neve 1073. Both sounded great and even, but 4 string sounded superior.

In the mix I added a little 700 to 800hz, cut 170hz, HP 50hz on both. Compressed with DBX 160XT.

BTW Edens sound great, but noticed them better for slap.
I always preferred Ampeg SVT's for finger players, GK's for pick players and Edens for slap.
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3rd January 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Derr View Post
Making basses sit in the mix is always one of the hardest and most important things to a fat musical sound.
.....

When you solo the bass in front of the bass player and he wants to "feel" more low end, you may be in trouble! Its how the bass sits in the mix and works with everything, not how the bass player wants the hairs on his chest to vibrate.
Well said Dave ... excellent post.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Derr View Post
A lot of how a bass sits is the bass part itself, as well as what is going on around it.

Dont forget what a bass amp can do. Miking a speaker often automatically highpasses the bass and adds the mid harmonics etc. If you have certain notes that just jump out, you may need to eq on them, or sidechain a compressor to push them back.
I agree: great post- these two points are important as well.

You have to be careful when EQing bass- you don't want notes to drop out because you cut too much. Much better to examine the source sound and how well it fits in with the rest of the arrangement if you have that option.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdmctear View Post
Problem is, the bassist is standing here next to me (right now... he says hi), so I doubt we could take a trip to the store and drop $5000 TODAY.
Go to your local GC and get a Tech21 Sansamp Bass Driver DI. It cleans up the ultra-lows from my 5-string nicely, on account of it's amp simulator (which is kind of a one trick pony, but it's an excellent trick). Plus it's got some useful controls, like a great tube drive knob, "presence", etc.

I think they're around $250.

Also, try using strings that are tapered at the bridge, so they sit deeper, and put more of the weight on the string itself. I like La Bella "Deep Talking Bass" strings for my 5.

One more suggestion- if you can turn the active electronics off and go passive, you might have more control of the lows that way, and actually get more punch, believe it or not.
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4th January 2007
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if you can't plug the bass into any old di and get a decent to good sound with no fiidling, the problem is with the hands and/or the instrument they're holding.

if you got a decent sound coming off tape (oh my, how tape takes care of so many bass problems), but when you drop it in the mix it disappears or plays hide and seek, the problem is likely in the arrangement and/or the part.

that doesn't mean that the solutions to the above problems can't be found somewhat or even mostly in gear and tweaks, because a talented set of hands and ears can work miracles. but ime even the best miracles fall short of what happens when a great part is well played and mixed into the right arrangement.

do what you can with the source, hipass and squeeze the rest. take your time with that hipass freq, 5 or 6hz can make all the difference in the world.

which brings you to my parting comment: are you sure the problem isn't your room?


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4th January 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
if you can't plug the bass into any old di and get a decent to good sound with no fiidling, the problem is with the hands and/or the instrument they're holding.

if you got a decent sound coming off tape (oh my, how tape takes care of so many bass problems), but when you drop it in the mix it disappears or plays hide and seek, the problem is likely in the arrangement and/or the part.

that doesn't mean that the solutions to the above problems can't be found somewhat or even mostly in gear and tweaks, because a talented set of hands and ears can work miracles. but ime even the best miracles fall short of what happens when a great part is well played and mixed into the right arrangement.

do what you can with the source, hipass and squeeze the rest. take your time with that hipass freq, 5 or 6hz can make all the difference in the world.

which brings you to my parting comment: are you sure the problem isn't your room?


gregoire
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ubk
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Not entirely sure it's not the room. It is a proper RFZ control room, but it is still in development, so to speak. Plus I am monitoring through Genelec 1030As. But (before everyone jumps on my Genelecs) I am pretty sure it's the bass as well as the bass parts (I couldn't agree more with what you said about "the arrangement").

The thing is, I don't have a large collection of 5 strings to choose from, and I don't really even know to many people around Philly who would have one either (let alone, a really good one).

As far as arrangement, I think the part was just too ambitious for the ultra low end of the spectrum. Too much movement and, for such a "slow" sound, it barely could lock into the fast rhythm of the song. Similarly it had a ton of sustain, so we muted it a bit with foam, and I think that worked very well.

Anyone ever hear Buddy Guy's Sweet Tea? Oh baby please! That would be the ideal bass sound, though truthfully, I cry everytime I hear it because it's just too perfect.

Thanks everyone. You were all very helpful!
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4th January 2007
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Many of the newer 5 string basses have the B string strung through the body, giving it more scale. I had a 5 without this and had it done to the bass and it did an extremely good job of tightening the B up.
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4th January 2007
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Hello,

I'm a bass player too and I always record bass threw DI and amp with d112.
I use the low end and very hi end from the DI and the grainy mids from the miked amp.(david eden).
mixing between DI and Amp is the tip to get the right sound.

I play clean soul & funky basslines like jamiroquai's. IMO 5 strings are nice for live but in a studio recording session it's always a problem.
Buy A 4 string bass and play low on the neck playing a low B or C comes hardly ever.

If everytime you hit the B string it gives a muddy sound, prefere using the DI track louder than the amped track.
cut the low and the high from the amped track and blend it with the DI track.

I hardly ever compress the whole bassline mix but you can do it to glue the two takes, and it reduce levels between slaps and fingerstyle sequences.

I always take a lot of time to drop in single notes to replace some that are not well defined/focused.
If you record your track well, and edit the whole note by note you'll make your bassist the most precise in the world

When compressing always keep in mind that the lower the threshold is, and the longer the release is, the muddiest and unfocused sound you'll get.

good luck and happy editing/tighting/crossfading.

Another tip to avoid open B string ringing is to put a ponytail elastic on the last fret like victor wooten does, it cleans and muffle the open B string sound a lot!
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Hi bdmctear,

unfortunately it's usually the player. It's his job to play all the notes evenly.

get the bassplayer to play a scale from the lowest notes of the bass as evenly as possible and then set the eq at the amp to compensate for any discrepencies in the guitar itself.

If you want the low B to sound decent then you have to go to a heavy gauge string for it. And adjust the pick up height at the low-pitch side id need be. Also look at the nobs on the basses and make sure they are set where they should be especially on the active bass. Do not crank any active boost - put the nob at the centre dent.

It's hard to play fingerstyle as evenly as pick.

Peace,
cortisol
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The fender jazz 5 has a flabby B string. That kinda sucks.

Other than that, play harder! Seriously, I learned this as a bass player/engineer that a bass won't sit in the mix unless its played a little hard. Within reason of course, but don't be afraid of fret buzz. It never shows up in the track anyway.

I just mixed a record where the bass player was absolutely amazing, but played softer than what I am used to. The hardest mixing job I've ever had.
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4th January 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thermos View Post
The fender jazz 5 has a flabby B string. That kinda sucks.

Other than that, play harder! Seriously, I learned this as a bass player/engineer that a bass won't sit in the mix unless its played a little hard. Within reason of course, but don't be afraid of fret buzz. It never shows up in the track anyway.

I just mixed a record where the bass player was absolutely amazing, but played softer than what I am used to. The hardest mixing job I've ever had.
i guess playing harder creates relatively more overtones?
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4th January 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josht View Post
Many of the newer 5 string basses have the B string strung through the body, giving it more scale. I had a 5 without this and had it done to the bass and it did an extremely good job of tightening the B up.
Technically, that doesn't really do anything for the scale... it's still the same from the bridge saddle to the nut. It might increase string tension a bit.
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4th January 2007
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A larger diameter B string will increase string tension and help remove Flabio.

Many systems, DI's etc. are rolling off before 20 hz. That low B is around 26 hz. Roll off gear at 20 hz and you create phase shift beginning a decade above the roll-off point = 200 hz. Phase shift increases with decreasing frequency. Your low B isn't tight because of all this accumulated phase shift. Roll off the gear at 2 hz and the phase shift begins at 20 hz = not audible.

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3 or 4 years ago I wrote an article for Recording Magazine called "Taming the 5-String Bass" that addressed this very issue. In it my suggestions included a couple of things already mentioned here:

- look to the source (a crappy sounding low B string can rarely be salvaged with studio trickery, and there are more 5-string basses with crappy sounding low B's than not)

- try multiband compression


One suggestion I made in the article that no one's mentioned here yet is

- dump the 5-string and record the part with a 4-string bass.

I can't count how many times this strategy has saved a session. (Of course, being a bassist myself I can usually muster up the proper empathy -- and a couple primo 4-string instruments from my arsenal -- to convince the player that this is a good tactic.) A tight, solid, consistant bass part that sits firmly & unwaveringly in the mix is way cooler than a few big subsonic depth charges that immediately call attention to themselves because of their timbral disparity.


BTW Jim, the low B is closer to 31 Hz.
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4th January 2007
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Originally Posted by chrisp2u View Post
Technically, that doesn't really do anything for the scale... it's still the same from the bridge saddle to the nut. It might increase string tension a bit.
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You're right. Scale isn't changed at all. Actually, neither is the string tension, though. :D I can't think of any reason to put ONLY the B string through-body except to have a marketing gimick based on voodoo. Guitarists and bassists are an easily-influenced lot.

What COULD happen, depending on the friction at the nut and behind the bridge, is put more physical material (the string IS ultimately longer, of course) into the equation, across which changed tension is distributed. This would affect a guitarist who bends notes more than a bassist who frets notes, though. Unless you're bending, it should have no effect whatsoever. The subtle "bend" as a string gets depressed isn't substantial enough to notice or likely to even measure without scientific precision instruments.

Greg
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5th January 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Ross View Post

One suggestion I made in the article that no one's mentioned here yet is

- dump the 5-string and record the part with a 4-string bass.


BTW Jim, the low B is closer to 31 Hz.
My thoughts exactly. I said the same thing today. Unfortunately the keyboard player literally wrote the songs to use that low string. Can anyone say "Nightmare"? It's okay. But I did say, next record write your bass parts on a 4 string and see if the 5 string makes sense here or there.

Besides following lots of your excellent suggestions, here was my creative sollution:

We recorded his parts in the range he had written them, but we simplified the rhythm (no 1/16 notes, fewer 1/8th notes). It was a good first step. Next, and luckily it fits their style/genre, we recorded a double an octave up, distorted (with lots of low rolled out). It's pretty cool. Sounds like an octave pedal, but better than anything, we can hear the lines he's playing.

Like you said, Bob Ross, next time... 4 string all the way.
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5th January 2007
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Yeah those are not good 5 string basses. I have found the only 5 strings that really record are the really expensive ones. Sydowsky and such.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
A larger diameter B string will increase string tension and help remove Flabio.

Many systems, DI's etc. are rolling off before 20 hz. That low B is around 26 hz.Jim Williams
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A low A would be 27.5 in 440 tuning, so I would say your bass is somewhat flat.
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9th April 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregP View Post
You're right. Scale isn't changed at all. Actually, neither is the string tension, though. :D I can't think of any reason to put ONLY the B string through-body except to have a marketing gimick based on voodoo. Guitarists and bassists are an easily-influenced lot.

Greg
No increased string tension, however, an increased angle at the bridge would put more tension on the top of the bass. On an electric this would be trivial, but on an double bass getting that tension right can make a huge difference
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9th April 2011
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Yeah those are not good 5 string basses. I have found the only 5 strings that really record are the really expensive ones. Sydowsky and such.
+1. It's almost certainly the basses - neither have stellar B strings. Unless you can convince the bassist to use a 4 string maybe try to have him transpose the notes below low D or better yet E up an octave if at all possible? Even on a good 5 string those low notes carry a lot of weight, used sparingly they tend to have more impact anyway.

There are decent 34" low B's to be found in middle priced basses - the Stingray5 does work pretty well and can be found around $1k or less used. Not that this will help you for your session tonight, but maybe this experience will convince the bassist to save for a better instrument and you can avoid having the same problem the next time...
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9th April 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Ross View Post
One suggestion I made in the article that no one's mentioned here yet is

- dump the 5-string and record the part with a 4-string bass.
damien did in post #16.



Frank
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9th April 2011
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I'm a longtime bass player. The major fault with many 5-string basses is a flubby low B with poor tone. I had to hunt and hunt for a good one - the one I use now is an Alvarez, that was a lucky find. When I play with musicians, the Alvarez is the one they like.
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