Hand crafted labs products

[Emperor-TK]

Flute Player, if I understand you correctly, your analogy is incorrect. This particular Mercedes has no airbags and no seatbelts, not 8 airbags with one mis-adjusted. If you hit the right object at the right speed, you will die, not break your nose. However, you might be lucky and drive the car for 30 years without a problem.

[flute player]

Originally Posted by fez

Well. After reading THREE people pointing their finger at HCL I stopped counting the horde. You know when the first poster said AND properly motivated that it is not the best solution, he made his point. So when you lift that ground you can have more risk with a dangerous electronic environment, and if you do not lift the ground you are safe? That is the ONLY thing that I care about right now.

You know people it is a good thing to point for a (possible) 'flaw' with any manufacture. But it is very INSULTING to do it the way it seems right now. This particular thread can have no post in months and all sudden people are pointing their fingers out of nowhere in great numbers, stop it already! You almost do not hear any appreciation for the members who are supporting HCL with sound-clips/reviews and the lot other then HCL himself and HCL-owners. But when there is some flaming it's disco once again.

The person with a second opinion made his point. I just want to know if that above stated question of me is the thing I need to do, if any.

Thanks.

Very well said Dennis.
I am not grazy , so after all this question counts for metoo.
I allways believed, and still do, the situation is save.
All my units are turned on with the ground switch not lifted.
If it turned out to be not safe we should find a decent sollution to get it right..

Greetz,

Paul

[flute player]

Originally Posted by Emperor-TK

Flute Player, if I understand you correctly, your analogy is incorrect. This particular Mercedes has no airbags and no seatbelts, not 8 airbags with one mis-adjusted. If you hit the right object at the right speed, you will die, not break your nose. However, you might be lucky and drive the car for 30 years without a problem.

Breaking my nose would be better than breaking my fingers beacause I would not be able to play the flute....
Yes indeed the unit has got sound and side airbags on board.
But the isue is will they work in the way they installed at this moment.
I asked a technician right here at my work.
The main problem occurs when the units are lifted because than it is not fisically grounded.
You can solve this by wiring the chassis onto your heating system.
Because that system in your house is allways 100 % grounded.
But the risk stays that when you are touching the chassis at the moment the voltage is going through it you'll be roasted.
For the grounding directly to the IEC cable the still keeps the question.
You can solve this but then you must rewire the unit.
Or you must be 100 % sure that the fuse will work in case there is an electrical problem.

Greetz,

Paul

[GYang]

Hopefully it will not kill anyone under normal circumstances.
Anyway I would be scared to use it (so I don't consecutivelly)

[hollyburg]

If I don´t lift the ground I am safe!?

Is this right?

[flute player]

Originally Posted by hollyburg

If I don´t lift the ground I am safe!?

Is this right?

According to my technician it is if you know that all wall socklets in your house are having an earth wire.
By the way, did you know that most devices that are made today don't evne have earth wires anymore.
This because it is double shielded.
But as said, that requires a total different way of building up the device.

Greetz,

Paul

[George Necola]

3 models seem to have this problem. The manufacturer should mention that he is willing to change this in the future and to offer a rewiring service for already sold units.
It remembers me about a guitaramp manufacturer from one of the new countries. We distributed their guitaramplifiers in our country. After selling over 70 of them a guitarstore owner asked me why there is no CE brand on the back of the amps.

I checked it and informed the manufacturer. He didnt bother and ignored me until i told them to inform the public (mainly all the other distributors). They were100% resistant from learning something. They got the ce sign 3 month later, problem solved. Let me tell you that those sounded sweet.

This is a small storm in a gearslutz waterglass right now. Hope we can solve this easily.

[magibatalla]

I'm sorry, I can't be on the side of my fellow HCL users.

Originally Posted by fez

Well. After reading THREE people pointing their finger at HCL I stopped counting the horde.

But when there is some flaming it's disco once again.

This "horde" is pointing at an important thing. A matter of law which could make HCL stopped manufacturing gear. This is serious. People are chiming in because HCL seems to be kicking balls out of their playground. And safety is not a joke.

Originally Posted by flute player

I allways believed, and still do, the situation is save.
All my units are turned on with the ground switch not lifted.

I only know a few things about audio engineering, but sadly I don't know anything about electronics. If a piece of gear has a switch, I'd probably try to switch it some day to see if it affects the sound. Would it be my fault for not knowing about electronics? Probably. But a court will prosecute HCL, not me.

I really appreciate the people at HCL, they are nice people to deal with and they craft great sounding devices, but I think they haven't managed this issue very well. I hope they will appreciate my sincere words.

[kazper]

Looks like decent copies of great equipment done with lack of knowledge and standards for safety.

Not trying to slam anyone harshly but that equipment does not meet the label printed on it clearly.

A few simple fixes and the unit would be in alot better shape for the world market.

Kaz

[flute player]

Originally Posted by kazper

Looks like decent copies of great equipment done with lack of knowledge and standards for safety.

I have a nice anekdote to tell.
I do not only play wooden flutes, I do sell them too.
The manufacturer is a small chinese company, but with the knowledge how to build them in good quallity.
The product is made of several kinds of hard wood.
One day a guy from the chamber off commerse said to me.
Are these products CE certificated because some types off hard wood may not be imported or used at all.
At that point I was surprised because I didn't knew those kind of things.
Simply because of the fact I didn't thought about it at all.
I think in some ways it counts for this case too.
I don't think Albert and team has a certain lack off knowledge for safety.
Than they would be sensless people that doen't care for the safety of their custumors.
It is just that no one ever mentioned this before.

Greetz,

Paul

[Virtalahde]

I have said pretty much everything I can on this topic. I have pointed out very clearly that some of HCL's products contain illegal switches, and they are not even denying it. Instead I'm being told that it is an installation technique. It's not - it's a fibrillation technique.

What I find surprising is that some people start dumping it on me. I have only pointed out a safety issue, and I did that because I was worried. I know enough about electricity to know that the issue we're speaking of is indeed serious.

I have no interest in purposely bashing down manufacturer's products. Why would I? I don't do that to any manufacturer, and I personally even don't know the people behind HCL.

Originally Posted by flute player

You can solve this by wiring the chassis onto your heating system.

Which is illegal, too. I don't know enough on this subject (correct me if I'm wrong), but I think modern electric installations do not ground to the water pipes anymore. If you tie your chassis to the radiator of your flat, you're only sending mains to the heating system in the event of failure and possibly killing your neighbor downstairs, if you have one.

[flute player]

Originally Posted by Virtalahde

Which is illegal, too. I don't know enough on this subject (correct me if I'm wrong), but I think modern electric installations do not ground to the water pipes anymore. If you tie your chassis to the radiator of your flat, you're only sending mains to the heating system in the event of failure and possibly killing your neighbor downstairs, if you have one.

Relax Jaakko, it is just a way how to ground the chassis when it is lifted.
I told my technician the problem and so he explained what you could do.
I have kid in the house so would never do this.
Can't imagine if he touches a radiator when there would be a problem with one of the units in my studio.
But I must admit to become a little bit concerned now too.
I mean, my rack is worth about 20K.
That is not an amount you can spend or save in one day.
I hope to have a reaction from HCL about how to solve it.
Sending it back to let it be rewired would be an option, but a co****ll one.
I am thinking to let it be checked by a specialist here in the Netherlands.

Greetz,

Paul

[JohnRoberts]

Originally Posted by flute player

According to my technician it is if you know that all wall socklets in your house are having an earth wire.
By the way, did you know that most devices that are made today don't evne have earth wires anymore.
This because it is double shielded.
But as said, that requires a total different way of building up the device.

Greetz,

Paul

Indeed it is legal in the US for ungrounded 2 circuit line cords as long as primary is double insulated and proper spacing is maintained.

A secondary issue that may not have been mentioned. A properly ground bonded chassis will not only protect against faults in that chassis but in other upstream gear connected to it.

Finally it seems there is some confusion between criticizing the general merchantability of the product or specifically just the safety engineering. I have no doubt that it could sound wonderful.

The dubious safety grounding practice does suggest lack of complete awareness of established procedures for clean signal transfer.

If signals aren't being treated differentially and signal grounds are sloppy it is possible for shield noise current to corrupt audio signals, often remedied by floating a ground. This is only a band-aid that may solve the immediate problem but it is possible with proper circuit techniques to have your safety ground "and" a clean audio path.

Search "pin one problem" for more specific discussion about that.

JR

[GYang]

Can this thread be moved to the Moan Zone finally?

[Bruno Putzeys]

Allow me to butt in for a single post (by request of Fred of Angstrom Mastering).

1) Safety earth & equipment safety
You can design to have no safety earth connection, if you design according to the rules of class II insulation (aka double insulation). The whole reasoning behind it is that there should always be two things separating users from unexpected death, so that when one fails, the result is still safe.
In class I (singly insulated) equipment the first line of defense is the insulation, be it one layer of plastic or a guaranteed 3mm separation between any uninsulated primary conductor and a part that can be touched. Guaranteed means that they'll push and tug at everything up to a prescribed force and then you still need to guarantee 3mm. The second line of defence is safety earth. This insures a circuit breaker will trip when the first line of defense fails. Clearly floating secondary ground is a problem here because should the secondary ground become live, the circuit breaker won't notice.
In class II equipment you don't have safety earth. The second line of defense is then: a second, separate insulating layer (if the first gets damaged, the second has no reason for doing likewise), and double the distance between uninsulated primary and secondary conductors.
So, if you must rid yourself of safety earth for some reason, follow class II construction rules throughout.
A ground lift switch figures in neither scenario. Either you don't need ground because you've jumped through all the hoops for class II or the box is class I and you need safety earth and thou shalt not cut it.

2) Grounding and audio quality
Whether a collection of equipment is physically tied to earth is absolutely irrelevant to audio quality. However, equipment with safety earth connections have their chassis necessarily interconnected via a connection which is not an audio cable. IEC has nothing to say about this, that much is correct. However, the AES does. Please read and follow AES48. It solves the problem. First off, in a balanced connection, the current through the cable shield does not cause hum provided you bond pin 1 directly to the chassis. Secondly, cutting safety earth only removes one potential ground loop. It does not guarantee freedom from ground loops. As soon as you have more than two interconnected boxes in any configuration other than a daisy chain, a ground loop is created. Important to remember: in anything more complex than a home stereo, ground loops are logically unavoidable.
From that moment on, badly designed equipment is prone to humming and this humming depends on exactly how the cables are run.
By "badly designed equipment" I mean equipment with a so-called "pin 1 problem". You can easily tell them by taking the cover off and have a look. If pin 1 does not first go straight to the chassis, you have a potential pin 1 problem. An XLR with three wires going into the circuit board: NONO. What happens then is that current resulting from a ground loop will be shunted straight into the audio ground of the circuit board and cause voltage on the internal audio reference. Unless the circuit happens to be fully differential throughout (rare), this will cause hum at some point.
Correct practice therefore is to bond the cable shield, through pin 1, straight to the chassis and connect the audio circuit ground to chassis at one point. Then, no matter how much current flows, none of it flows through the audio circuit.
Again: ground loops are unavoidable. Current will flow. Keep it out of your audio. Bond pin 1 directly to the chassis, and use proper balanced I/O.

Conclusion:
1) Following AES48 allows you to connect all equipment with safety earth with no adverse effects. You will also find that "balanced power" is also unnecessary to optimise sound.
2) If you do not want to use safety earth in order to minimise the impact of any pin 1 problem other equipment might have, construct per Class II.

[livingstone]

thanks for these constructive & detailed explanations Bruno

[Virtalahde]

Originally Posted by flute player

I am thinking to let it be checked by a specialist here in the Netherlands.

Paul, if you want a quick & dirty basic safety check, you can do it without opening the piece of equipment.

I recommend anyone with a HCL product to do this basic check because after looking at the other products (the ones without a ground lifting switch in question), I'm not certain they are connected the way they are supposed to be.

Here's how you do it - this is for all of you that might be worried about the safety of your equipment.

You need a multimeter that can do a continuity check (by "beeping out"). You can do this using an ohm-meter, too.



Here's a very basic multimeter. The knob in it is turned to temperature measurements, but the continuity check is the next position to the left and between the ohm range measurment of "200" ohms and the temperature measurement. You will find these symbols in about any multimeter. If not, you can use the ohm-meter, use the range of 200 ohms.

Test your meter by putting the tips of the cables together. You should hear a beeping sound (continuity test) or see a measurement of "0.000" (ohm measurement). If you don't check out your measurement cables are connected the right way or that the battery of the meter isn't dead.

Turn off the piece of gear you want to check, disconnect every cable and take it out of the rack. If any of the ground lifting switches are in, turn them off so that all grounds are/should be connected. Find the safety ground tab in your IEC power connector:



The tab is the center one inside the connector, pointing up like in this picture, or pointing down. It's always the center one.

Put the testing tip of the other measurement cable (it doesn't make a difference which one) to this grounding tab and try touching the chassis with the other one. Good places to try this are the housings of the XLR connectors, screws, etc. If you hear a beeping sound or get a measurement of "0.000" (the amount of decimals may vary), the safety ground is connected to the chassis.

Now try lifting the grounds and do the measurements again. If you still get a beeping sound or a "0.000", the safety ground is still in. If you're not getting a measurement on either or both of the cases, the safety ground is connected wrong. But remember to try poking around every piece of metal in the case, sometimes you just might not succeed the first time.

If you're curious, you can also try to measure the continuity between the safety ground lug and the front panel, too. Good places to try are the housings of switches, screws, everything. Sometimes there might be paint or something else in between that isolates the front panel from the rest of the chassis. This can be bad from noise point of a view - or it might be a very bad thing if something goes wrong with the power switch of the unit.

I hope these simple instructions help out you who feel confused.

[copiapoa]

Originally Posted by Bruno Putzeys

Allow me to butt in for a single post (by request of Fred of Angstrom Mastering).

1) Safety earth & equipment safety
You can design to have no safety earth connection, if you design according to the rules of class II insulation (aka double insulation). The whole reasoning behind it is that there should always be two things separating users from unexpected death, so that when one fails, the result is still safe.
In class I (singly insulated) equipment the first line of defense is the insulation, be it one layer of plastic or a guaranteed 3mm separation between any uninsulated primary conductor and a part that can be touched. Guaranteed means that they'll push and tug at everything up to a prescribed force and then you still need to guarantee 3mm. The second line of defence is safety earth. This insures a circuit breaker will trip when the first line of defense fails. Clearly floating secondary ground is a problem here because should the secondary ground become live, the circuit breaker won't notice.
In class II equipment you don't have safety earth. The second line of defense is then: a second, separate insulating layer (if the first gets damaged, the second has no reason for doing likewise), and double the distance between uninsulated primary and secondary conductors.
So, if you must rid yourself of safety earth for some reason, follow class II construction rules throughout.
A ground lift switch figures in neither scenario. Either you don't need ground because you've jumped through all the hoops for class II or the box is class I and you need safety earth and thou shalt not cut it.

2) Grounding and audio quality
Whether a collection of equipment is physically tied to earth is absolutely irrelevant to audio quality. However, equipment with safety earth connections have their chassis necessarily interconnected via a connection which is not an audio cable. IEC has nothing to say about this, that much is correct. However, the AES does. Please read and follow AES48. It solves the problem. First off, in a balanced connection, the current through the cable shield does not cause hum provided you bond pin 1 directly to the chassis. Secondly, cutting safety earth only removes one potential ground loop. It does not guarantee freedom from ground loops. As soon as you have more than two interconnected boxes in any configuration other than a daisy chain, a ground loop is created. Important to remember: in anything more complex than a home stereo, ground loops are logically unavoidable.
From that moment on, badly designed equipment is prone to humming and this humming depends on exactly how the cables are run.
By "badly designed equipment" I mean equipment with a so-called "pin 1 problem". You can easily tell them by taking the cover off and have a look. If pin 1 does not first go straight to the chassis, you have a potential pin 1 problem. An XLR with three wires going into the circuit board: NONO. What happens then is that current resulting from a ground loop will be shunted straight into the audio ground of the circuit board and cause voltage on the internal audio reference. Unless the circuit happens to be fully differential throughout (rare), this will cause hum at some point.
Correct practice therefore is to bond the cable shield, through pin 1, straight to the chassis and connect the audio circuit ground to chassis at one point. Then, no matter how much current flows, none of it flows through the audio circuit.
Again: ground loops are unavoidable. Current will flow. Keep it out of your audio. Bond pin 1 directly to the chassis, and use proper balanced I/O.

Conclusion:
1) Following AES48 allows you to connect all equipment with safety earth with no adverse effects. You will also find that "balanced power" is also unnecessary to optimise sound.
2) If you do not want to use safety earth in order to minimise the impact of any pin 1 problem other equipment might have, construct per Class II.

Thanks. It is constructive discussion!!

Paul.Here too measurement,please.

[livingstone]

that's a very interesting picture,

i just had a look to a few other SPL products and they also have a ground lift push button (not switch... so not in contact with the chassis)
AND CE logo

so it seems that SPL build most of their gears in class II and are so double insulated, what make them really safe

unlike HCL following gears,

- the Velvet channel strip
- the Mirror balanced pre
- the tubescream distortion box

wich have a ground lift switch and HAVE NOT the CE logo
wich means they have not passed the tests & procedures to have it,
just because they can't, because they're not conform to electric safety CE rules

i'm sorry but posting this pic to someone with a few knowledge of electronic is just introducing confusion

[Virtalahde]

That switch on the SPL piece does probably nothing else than lifts the signal ground out of the chassis, which is perfectly fine.

[livingstone]

Originally Posted by Virtalahde

That switch on the SPL piece does probably nothing else than lifts the signal ground out of the chassis, which is perfectly fine.

right Jaakko :

taken from the Kultube manual

[flute player]

Originally Posted by livingstone

unlike HCL following gears,
- the Velvet channel strip
- the Mirror balanced pre
- the tubescream distortion box
wich have a ground lift switch and HAVE NOT the CE logo
wich means they have not passed the tests & procedures to have it,
just because they can't, because they're not conform to electric safety CE rules

As said before in another way, I don't think the HCL geas is ever being tested for CE certification.
Simply because no one have told this kind of things before.
I think Albert just started to assemble.
But when buisness becommes bigger and bigger you have to professionalize.
And very often that means that there are more terms and rules to deal with.
By the way, do you know for sure that these arte the only units that have the problem ?

Greetz,

Paul

[flute player]

By the way, Jaakko thanks for your explenation.
But those kinds off things I can't do by myself.
And if the unit is not well grounded than there is a second problem how to solve it.
So I am very much thinking of sending the units back.
Bruno, do you can fix these things also ?
I see you post for Belgium and Netherlands.

Greetz,

Paul

[Bruno Putzeys]

Originally Posted by Virtalahde

That switch on the SPL piece does probably nothing else than lifts the signal ground out of the chassis, which is perfectly fine.

Depends. The signal ground is an accessible signal (the user can touch it). If this signal ground isn't somehow connected to safety earth, an unsafe condition still happens when the primary conductors contact it. So you need class II if you want to ground-lift anything.

Originally Posted by flute player

Bruno, do you can fix these things also ? I see you post for Belgium and Netherlands.

Unfortunately I'm occupied almost twice full time with design work so I don't take on odd jobs. This to preserve my sanity.

[livingstone]

Originally Posted by flute player

As said before in another way, I don't think the HCL geas is ever being tested for CE certification.
Simply because no one have told this kind of things before.

just look at HCL website photos, the Di box have the CE certification so they know what it is.

Originally Posted by flute player

By the way, do you know for sure that these arte the only units that have the problem ?

these units have an obvious problem, the other ones would have to be verified i think.

it reminds me a few years later Volvo had a problem on a serie of ABS sensors, and they contacted all the owners to change it

that's not why Volvo is considered as a wrong car brand, because they just cared their customers security,
HCL should do the same and act like professionals, it'd show their sense of responsability and how they care their customers

[Mushy]

Originally Posted by Virtalahde

That switch on the SPL piece does probably nothing else than lifts the signal ground out of the chassis, which is perfectly fine.

Precisely. The chassis is grounded no matter what the position of the ground lift switch. That's the way it's supposed to be done.

What's more disappointing than the revelation of a design flaw is the manufacturers reaction to it. I know that no one wants to hear that their baby is ugly, but the complete denial of wrong doing followed by rightious indignation and accusations of alterior motives is just sad. Not all Gearslutz are idiots.

I don't care how good this stuff sounds. Until they comply with basic safety standards (and it don't get more basic than this) and adjust their attitude toward their customers, I will NEVER bring one of HCLs pieces into my home.

[Radiance]

Originally Posted by Mushy

What's more disappointing than the revelation of a design flaw is the manufacturers reaction to it.

Yes, these are the times of the world wide web, without which this company never would have been where they are right now.
However, their arrogant attitude towards people who point them to a VERY important flaw in their design will backfire like a Tijuana burrito-eating contest....

Soon, when you google "hand crafted labs" this thread will pop up early in the search results...so better make that this has a happy ending....

[JohnRoberts]

Another perhaps subtle point that may not apply to EU (CE) markets, I recall an issue with one commercial product design where my in-house safety guy told me that any external connection labeled as "ground" on a product with 3-wire line cord must pass a ground bonding test.

I don't recall the exact details but the terminal labeled as ground must accept something like 50 amps for several seconds with less than several volts of voltage rise. In my particular case a PCB trace was evaporated by the test. I was given the option of renaming the connection something other than ground or beefing up the PCB. I made the product pass the test because IMO it was the right thing to do.

I notice some chassis pictures with XLR pin one labeled "GND". My guy would be testing those at tens of amps. FWIW

JR

[frans]

Originally Posted by chrissugar

You do not understand some basic design principles (which are not optional) There is no need to use a device to know from a picture that it is wrongly designed. It is not a question of "how it sounds" but about implementing safety grounding by the law. (law which is not optional)

And by the way, your seasoned technician who said there is nothing wrong about that device is an ignorant amateur (just to say in the least offensive way).

chrissugar

It's you who doesn't even know what box I have and what is inside. If you decide or assume that you know what's in there and that therefore my tech is an amateur that's up to you. I have to repeat myself: my HCL gear is safe. I can say that because of actual experience and not assumption. This gear is handbuilt to order. Probably no two boxes are 100% identical.

[Virtalahde]

I have been looking at HCL's products and I still have to say that I actually do like them. There's a lot of ideas I find interesting and different, and unlike many, I'm not that horrified with the general inner look and the wiring of these things. Sure, the wiring is prototypish and I would not do it like that, but that's what the Atomic Squeezebox looks like in the inside.

The safety issues are obvious, but they can be solved. By putting some effort in, HCL can have a perfectly good product line. Their gear is not exactly expensive, so they could just raise the prices a little and use a few extra hours in making them better.

I do feel kinda bad for all of this. But I just could no shut up on the matter.