Hand crafted labs products

[HandCrafted Lab]

Virtalahde

Sorry of course,sincerely - we have assumed few days ago you had some plagues with electrical shocking in past,evidently - so, you had yet,pity of course.
I have luxury carcrash in past - and I do not drive my car now :-( but it`s not mean all drivers & cars will be crushed, it`s my personal problem (though another drivers&friends have a big smile) as well as electrical shocking in past excite you for many worries now.

We understand self-affirmation is big (or main?) part of each human nature and you have found very good carrier for this purpose as well as for self-advertising own brandname with SAME business - in powerful thread of small but wellknown manufacturer, with thread in upper positions with more 40K views and with many hundreds customers for same stuff, worldwide.
May be you have assumed that you informed us for big knowledge - I can sadden you all these things we know not worse of you. And much more, believe me, sorry for it, of course.

So... we earnestly ask you please do not push up your own brandname and do not make your OWN business in OUR tread.
Make your same business and spread your advices&claimes in your own area, OK colleague?
With hope for your professional civility - as minimum it`s indecorous between of colleagues.
Thanks in advance for your non replying, anyway we shall not react anymore,sorry, we have a lot of work and have not a time/desire for rigmarole.

Mod, we would be really appreciative for removing all this self-affiramtion & hidden self-advertising hysteria, rigmarole with a tons of text & garbage on page (....no chances for audio talking) - hysteria which is based on speculations at very important theme for each person -safety- and therefore very gainfulh&endless theme for selfadvertising/affirmation for man who have attempts for making own business while of sitting at our necks.

Originally Posted by magibatalla

Hey, I'm a big HCL supporter, and owner of many of their devices...
Let's try to turn this into a constructive discussion.

Magi,thanks for reasonable thought at last, our handshakes

[Virtalahde]

Originally Posted by HandCrafted Lab

you have found very good carrirer for this purpouse as well as for self-advertising own brandname with SAME business

Do I have a brand name?

...

In fact, I should erase the tab from my website that mentions about building custom gear. I don't have the time to do that. The last thing I built for a customer (4x racked Yamaha PM-1000 modules) took me two years to finish, of which about 1 week was how long I actually did that. The rest of the time I had been mastering records, building things to myself and thinking that I really should start with that PM-1000 job.

So let me make it official: Please do not ask me to build anything for you because I won't do that. Or I might, but it'll take 5 years this time, and cost you an arm and a leg.

Anyway, HCL hasn't still answered why there is an illegal safety ground lifting switch in his equipment, so could we please get an answer to that. I'm also interested in how Copiapoa has diagrams of HCL's equipment, and what is his connection with HCL, besides from being a friend.

It's good to see tube equipment that is different than another mediocre Pultec/LA2A/Altec 436 copycat. Russian tubes are cool, too. I have a bunch of 6N6P's I need to try somewhere, they're tall & tough guys! But electrical safety is not to be overlooked. Fix the issues regarding the safety ground so people that don't know a jack about electronics can still make their music without fear of being toasted.

[copiapoa]

I have killed to advertise two days the Finnish devices.

Originally Posted by Virtalahde

Here's the same thing written down one more time.

TSC Tech Talk | Grounding

I've got jolted with 230v a few times. It's never funny. I hate the feeling of 50Hz buzzing through my body, and I'm happy to be alive.

There is no sense more to tell as it is necessary to do devices.Do the devices so that they did not kill you.Devices HCL are made correctly and safely for a life.

Good luck!!!! The Colleague!!

[CapstanGreg]

It's not acceptable to lift the safety ground (from the IEC) here in the states either. As Virtalahde stated several times, if the chassis becomes energized (by one of many ways possible), there is no guarantee the fuse will pop; thus, the chassis itself can become energized with the mains voltage and give someone a nice pop when they touch it.

Audio grounds can be lifted if desired but not the one from the IEC.

[Darwin James]

I just spent 2 hours reading this thread and was thinking this could be a possible new preamp source, since I just got paid and am looking for a new high end pre to go with my MA-201FET mic. Now I see the gear could kill me? WTF.

[copiapoa]

Sense of grounding or shielding in that has fast break down a safety fused.That it has occurred on the chassis there should be a zero potential.
In devices HCL the zero on the chassis gets from a pin a minus of the first capacitor in PS.The metal case 7808 is a point shielding.Therefore at lifted upwards GROUD LIFT from the IEC the zero potential does not vanish anywhere.That's all.

[copiapoa]

Originally Posted by Darwin James

I just spent 2 hours reading this thread and was thinking this could be a possible new preamp source, since I just got paid and am looking for a new high end pre to go with my MA-201FET mic. Now I see the gear could kill me? WTF.

Preamp does not use this switch.

[Virtalahde]

Originally Posted by copiapoa

Sense of grounding or shielding in that has fast break down a safety fused.That it has occurred on the chassis there should be a zero potential. In devices HCL the zero on the chassis gets from a pin a minus of the first capacitor in PS.The metal case 7808 is a point shielding.Therefore at lifted upwards GROUD LIFT from the IEC the zero potential does not vanish anywhere.That's all.

That's it. You clearly do not understand the difference between signal ground and safety ground, which I find utterly horrifying. From now on I assume you take part in manufacturing these things, since you specify a lot of details in how they are connected.

The grounding point for the signal ground you're speaking of is perfectly fine. It's a common practice to keep the star ground point at the first filter capacitor, and tie this point to the chassis. If I understand you correctly, this point can not be lifted, which is OK, too.

But the ground lift switch @ the IEC connector cuts the connector's safety ground lug to the chassis - the exact point which is important. After this is done, the safety ground is not referenced to anything, and the neutral at the breaker box doesn't know if the chassis is on mains potential or not.

Originally Posted by copiapoa

In Ukraine the ohm law learn in the sixth class

Getting back to this older post, I would like you to explain in your Ohms Law why you specify the same size of a fuse for both US mains (120v) and European mains (230v)?

[Darwin James]

What's the difference between the A2 and the mirror?

How do they sound with a FET mic?

What is shipping time to California?

[flute player]

Hey mister Virtalahde,

I am just like a few people more arround here becomming a little sick of trying to make it here into some of a one man show about grounding.
If you know all about it, well fine for you sir.
But I feel you try to harm the trade mark HCL off assuming they don't know what they are doying.
And assuming that their gear is not save to work with.
I have the feeling you are trying to confuse people on purpose sothat they won't buy it for that reason.
Which, I believe it totally not true.
After so many units sold, do you think that a manufaturer would survive if the gear would not be save enough to work with ?
If you want to talk about you own knowledge please blow away to the DIY forum.
Then we go further with the main topic about how the gear sounds.
And that it still is the best for the buck if you want a high end sound into your studio.

Greetz,

Paul

[livingstone]

yes let's talk about sound !!

after all who cares about taking electric shocks with gears ?
no one !!
exept Jaakko maybe...

so after reading this thread i decided to unground all the gears of my studio,
and WOAWE !!! it sounds so much better !!
even my Weiss DS1 MKIII sounds more open and wide !!!

ungrounding is the new audio hype !!! the best ever !!!



well let's be back the feet on earth a minute please now ... it's better to talk about ground...

long time ago, before being involved into underground music scenes and sound engineering at full time i've spent 7 years in Law university, and what i can tell from the law point of view
is that in regards to european norms and laws all electrical units that are built or sold in europe, have to be connected to ground, if they 're not they're then complitely illegal, whatever they are used for...
and any damage to a user because of an electric shock engage the resposability of the manufacturing company and of the designer.
i won't talk for US laws but it might be the same, and about ukrainian law, i really don't know.

you should think to it twice HCL, it's a friendly advice,
if by any (bad)chance one user have once an electric shock with this kind of ungrounded units you purvey and have a body damage or even worst loose his life, you're legaly responsible of this, and in case of trial you don't have a chance and the result will be that you will pay for this for a very long time ...


Jaakko thanks for pointing out this detail,

sorry for all of you who want to discuss about these gear's sound quality,

but whatever they sound, this is a very serious point discussed here

[[silent:arts]]

Originally Posted by flute player

...
I am just like a few people more arround here becomming a little sick of trying to make it here into some of a one man show about grounding...

Paul, the discussion is not about grounding, it is about safety.
with "grounding" we are free, with "safety" there are laws (which is a good thing).

fact is, in 99% of all countries law is the chassis has to be connected permanently to the IEC safety earth.

there are lot of test equipment on the market for doing this test ...

at the end, at least in the EU (and if there other countries with CE requirement) it is just illegal, even if it sounds better. just not allowed to sell. for very clearly stated safety reasons.
this is a matter of fact. at my work we do this tests, and if it fails the equipment just goes back - with a notice to the authorities. even if it would sound better unsafely

HCL should think about this, could have major problems after
a) a studio burned
b) a customer burned
c) a customer died
or
d) the big label boss of the customer wanted to adjust the gear ...

this is an important theme, and HCL should be thankful to Jaakko for pointing it out.
they might know everything about audio grounding, but the laws safety earth comes first.

best
Volker
[silent:arts]

[livingstone]

just a last thought
excuse me but
it's really hilarious to lower the SNR on a Distortion Box !! ... especially this way

maybe rock n' roll has something to do with electrick shocks !!

[George Necola]

I am just like a few people more arround here becomming a little sick of trying to make it here into some of a one man show about grounding

you dont get it right? We are by no means questioning the sound of the unit. We question the safety.

If the airbag in your car is not showing up during a crash and you die there is an investigation. If its a technical defect the manufactere pays your wife.

This one here is against EU law. Even if nothing happend in the last few years, it can happen in the future.

HCL seems to be resistant in learning and changing it for the good! Pleade guys, just change it and we can live in peace and happyness

[Thermionic]

Keep up the good fight, Jaakko. Your efforts are not in vain. Absolute kudos to you for having the integrity to take out the time from your schedule to make people aware that potentially lethal gear is being sold.

Has Jules seen this thread? This is really serious. Far be it from me to suggest a course of action for Jules (I'm sure he's a busy guy and has a million and one things to do, without having to read every utterance here), but I think he should lock any threads pertaining to the OEM in question until they've proven their gear meets CE standards.

Serious business...not remotely funny.

Well spotted, Jaakko.

Justin

[Grooveteer]

Unbelievable. Just unbelievable.

Jaakko is absolutely right. He points out a serious safety issue and he gets flamed?

[flute player]

Originally Posted by flute player

After so many units sold, do you think that a manufaturer would survive if the gear would not be save enough to work with ?

For all those who didn't saw it in my text.
Here's the little quote again.
It is not that people don't may mention this.
It is the way and specifically the tone in which he said it.
That is a little bit irritating.

[frans]

I have a HCL preamp. It's grounded fine, thank you. Albert seems to know what he's doing.

[ritz]

Originally Posted by flute player

For all those who didn't saw it in my text.
Here's the little quote again.
It is not that people don't may mention this.
It is the way and specifically the tone in which he said it.
That is a little bit irritating.

Uhh... If you read back over the thread I think you'll find the issue was brought up very respectfully, without any "irritating" tone to it.

It's only HCL's continuing ignorance regarding this important matter that the message has continued to be repeated with more and more urgency. And rightly so.

Seriously, this is a pretty basic but very important point of electrical safety and it's nothing to be so dismissive about. Such a grounding scheme would be illegal in basically any modern country (and probably most of the not-so-modern countries too). It actually surprises me that a company who obviously knows enough to design equipment of this complexity would disregard this problem. What's even more scary is that it's not just any piece of equipment, but a piece of high voltage tube gear.

And your arguement backing its safety is kinda flawed. Just because hundreds of people own one of these things doesn't mean they're all going to suddenly start dropping dead like flies. This is very much akin to selling a car without seatbelts. You'll be perfectly fine... that is, until you run into something...

[chrissugar]

It is unbelievable that someone who manufactures pro audio equipment thinks that safety ground is optional.
NOT IMPLEMENTING CORRECTLY SAFETY GROUND IS ILLEGAL. This is not something you can negotiate. You can lift your audio ground at your will but safety ground is obligatory.

What I find outrageous is the fact that HCL has the nerve to lecture Jaakko about electonics and accuse him of "self-affirmation' and "self-advertising"
Unbelievable

chrissugar

[rob f]

Jaakko is correct. What I see in the picture is not safe, & illegal !

[ioaudio]

lifting safety ground is a big NO NO.

hcl, your reaction is very wrong. you MUST take back these units and fix that. fat cable, not that tiny wire, directly to the box.

[JohnRoberts]

+1 Jaakko... keep trying.



JR

[frans]

I see people questioning gear which they never held in their hands. Discussions about what and how and theory and practice. I keep it short: a seasoned technician took a look into my HCL gear and found nothing wrong.
So if in doubt search for somebody in your area that has HCL gear and check it for yourself.

[chrissugar]

Originally Posted by frans

I see people questioning gear which they never held in their hands. Discussions about what and how and theory and practice. I keep it short: a seasoned technician took a look into my HCL gear and found nothing wrong.

You do not understand some basic design principles (which are not optional) There is no need to use a device to know from a picture that it is wrongly designed. It is not a question of "how it sounds" but about implementing safety grounding by the law. (law which is not optional)

And by the way, your seasoned technician who said there is nothing wrong about that device is an ignorant amateur (just to say in the least offensive way).

chrissugar

[ritz]

Originally Posted by frans

I see people questioning gear which they never held in their hands. Discussions about what and how and theory and practice. I keep it short: a seasoned technician took a look into my HCL gear and found nothing wrong.
So if in doubt search for somebody in your area that has HCL gear and check it for yourself.

You don't need to have it in your hands to see the obvious.
Take the analogy of the car without seatbelts. You don't need to be driving in that car to know that it's an unsafe practice.

As for your tech... maybe he overlooked it/didn't notice it, maybe he didn't care, maybe he's just not that savvy on the safety aspect, who knows? At the end of the day, the fact still remains that this is an unsafe practice.

[Emperor-TK]

Switchable chassis/IEC grounds are dangerous and should not be implemented on any piece of gear, due to both legal and safety reasons. I have not heard anyone claim that the device in the photo does not contain a switchable chassis ground. And as such, the piece of gear depicted in the photograph is unsafe and is also illegal in most countries. That is a fact which is not debatable. Whether or not other HCL preamps are safe or not is not being explicitly questioned. The fact that another HCL product passes a tech's safety assessment is not pertinent to this discussion.

Switched chassis ground = dangerous and illegal.

[livingstone]

just to stay rigorous,

looking at HCL website pics, 3 units have this groundlift switch connected to the IEC connectors wich is illegal & dangerous

- the Velvet channel strip
- the Mirror balanced pre
- the tubescream distortion box

these gears are undoubtly built with quality components,
but wiring looks a bit like a mess, not rigorous at all, a bit prototype/diy style,
most of the times mains wire's standart colors are not respected.

[flute player]

Originally Posted by George Necola

you dont get it right? We are by no means questioning the sound of the unit. We question the safety.
If the airbag in your car is not showing up during a crash and you die there is an investigation. If its a technical defect the manufactere pays your wife.
HCL seems to be resistant in learning and changing it for the good! Pleade guys, just change it and we can live in peace and happyness

OK George,

I've just get it right and mentioned that L am questioning the savety point by myself.
I believed that Albert and his team we're having this checked allready before even think off selling one piece of gear.
I didn't liked the tonew in the way he brought it.
Just by being some smart ass that know a mercedes had 8 airbags.
And he is going to discuss the way that the left one at the drivers seat is positioned not right enough.
I mean, that is something that mercedes has allready done.

[fez]

Well. After reading THREE people pointing their finger at HCL I stopped counting the horde. You know when the first poster said AND properly motivated that it is not the best solution, he made his point. So when you lift that ground you can have more risk with a dangerous electronic environment, and if you do not lift the ground you are safe? That is the ONLY thing that I care about right now.

You know people it is a good thing to point for a (possible) 'flaw' with any manufacture. But it is very INSULTING to do it the way it seems right now. This particular thread can have no post in months and all sudden people are pointing their fingers out of nowhere in great numbers, stop it already! You almost do not hear any appreciation for the members who are supporting HCL with sound-clips/reviews and the lot other then HCL himself and HCL-owners. But when there is some flaming it's disco once again.

The person with a second opinion made his point. I just want to know if that above stated question of me is the thing I need to do, if any.

Thanks.