Who makes the best U47 Clone?

[Alex Breaux]

Originally Posted by Sofa King

Hey Alex,
Ive only had one experience with two "real" 47s at the same time,
and those two didnt sound identical.
So I guess my point is that chasing any venerable, benchmark standard, be it a mic, a guitar, amp etc etc. is often futile.
I just put a bunch of 47 type mics [ one of them being a "real" 47 ], and did a blind test, and I picked the Flea as the one that spoke to me on a number of different voices.

best,
Sean

Hi Sean,

When it comes to comparing almost any vintage mic to another, you are going to be hard pressed to get two that match for numerous reasons. That is why if you had a pair of lets say u47, you send them to Bill Bradley or Andreas Grosser to dial them in and get them as close as they can.

Some people may not like a u47, some people use them on almost everything "me". Its preference. Flea makes a great product, one of the best I think. So I would probably have the same choice as you if I were not such a u47 fan.

But like I said, even though these mics are all great, they don't sound exactly like a real u47 as you know. In my opinion, not even close.

Is that a bad thing?? No.

Maybe these vendors should just stop with the clone stuff, and just make great mics. : )

A

[wildpark]

sorry but Flea makes a 47
like akg the c12vr instead of a c12

just read my post from the last year.

iam hard bored about Gearsluts today all informations you need for Vintage gear is allready Here inclusive shotouts thats the reason
i allmost quit my posts in here just alot peeps here with no idea

[Frankovitchy]

I love my CM7...did an A/B with an original U47 and maybe, i said maybe, there was a slightly better high end on the U47...

Amazing mic that CM7

[Directimage]

CM7 is awesome. I've seen posts about different freq response on 47 clones and proximity has to be very scientific to be accurate. You can move 1/2" and it changes the apparent frequencies in a huge way.

[Alex Breaux]

Originally Posted by wildpark

sorry but Flea makes a 47
like akg the c12vr instead of a c12

just read my post from the last year.

iam hard bored about Gearsluts today all informations you need for Vintage gear is allready Here inclusive shotouts thats the reason
i allmost quit my posts in here just alot peeps here with no idea

You mean Flea makes a 47 "clone"......

As AKG makes a c12 "clone" ..

I don't understand what you are getting at?

A

[tree]

Originally Posted by RKrizman

I think it pretty much has the same sonic signature, in a way, say, that the Lawson does not (although it's a fine mic on its own). The Flea may not sound exactly like any given 47, but again it might well sound just like a particular 47. It's also perhaps an example of what a 47 might sound like new.

We extensively compared it here with Grosser's Voxarama, changing different capsules and headbaskets, and the differences were really negligible.

-R

Hey R
Sorry, feel like i'm missing something here ... can you clarify the last part of your post for me?
You extensively compared AG47 to original U47 or to Flea?
Thanks.

[RKrizman]

Originally Posted by tree

Hey R
Sorry, feel like i'm missing something here ... can you clarify the last part of your post for me?
You extensively compared AG47 to original U47 or to Flea?
Thanks.

Sorry not to be more specific. I have files of me reading and playing guitar and other things using the Flea 47, Gefell 92.1, new Tele U48, Wunder CM7 and CM7gt, Wunder CM49, Flea 49, Bock 151....and my friend's nicely maintained vintage U47, which is my own personal benchmark for the U47 sound. So yes, in the midst of all this the Flea was compared to the vintage 47. This happened over 6 months at two different studios, different preamps, etc. These files have no value to anyone but me and helped me decide which mics to go for.

Then, a friend of mine came over with his Grosser Voxorama 47 which uses the fet tube replacement. Over several sessions we compared this to the Flea 47 (which I had purchased by then) on guitar and vocal. He then replaced the fet device with an ef14 tube, and a few different capsule baskets. Old, modern, reskinned, M7, K47, etc. We recorded using the Grosser headbaskets on the Grosser mic and the Flea mic, switching them around, etc. Now I'm considering ordering a Flea K47 copy as an alternative to the M7 it came with. We also compared the Grosser mic to several other versions of vintage 47s that my friend's friend owns.

So in short I've been around the block with this, and found something I liked at a good price point, and have been a happy camper ever since. To me, an exact answer to the question of who makes the best U47 clone is essentially impossible because of too many variables--- but as Roger Miller says, "You can be happy if you've a mind to".

So, what was the question?

-R

[carloff]

Hey R,
cannot help myself but EF14 is not appropriate substitute to VF14 or VF14 FET AG
For me is quite strange to try it with AG V47...

[Piedpiper]

was thinking the same thing...

[RKrizman]

Originally Posted by carloff

Hey R,
cannot help myself but EF14 is not appropriate substitute to VF14 or VF14 FET AG
For me is quite strange to try it with AG V47...

Sorry, I meant VF14. Thanks for the correction.

-R

[Jim Williams]

FET or tube? That IS the question. They made both. They sound different too. I couldn't read 11 pages to see if anyone else brought that up.

Me, I'm not inclined to spend thousands on a 50 year old mic in questionable condition. Audio work doesn't pay those wages these days... if you havn't noticed.

I built my own. A K-47 capsule and a decent circuit is close enough for me. Throw it into a cheap $50 mic body and put the change back into your pocket. If I have a hangover for a tube 47 sound, a tube preamp does that well enough for the pay I get for doing it.

Besides, once it's smashed into an MP3, who is really going to notice?

Answer: My pocketbook.

[RKrizman]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

FET or tube? That IS the question. They made both. They sound different too. I couldn't read 11 pages to see if anyone else brought that up.

Yes we listened to the "FET tube" and the real tube. The FET we listened to sounded a bit abrasive, so Grosser concluded it was broken and sent a new one to my friend, along with a real tube. Didn't hear the new FET, did hear the vintage tube. It sounded fine, but IMO nothing to justify the price. Also IMO the Grosser head baskets sounded better on the Flea body. Splitting very fine hairs at this point. Intelligent listeners could reasonably conclude otherwise.

-R

[Alex Breaux]

I have A/B'd my 47 and others to many clones in front of many people. Every time I have done this, I get the same results, the same responses from the listeners. Due to those results I have sold everything I have "other then my aea R44" and bought all vintage.

If you don't have the cash for u48, u48, u67, elam 251, c12, etc, buy a damn um57, or cmv563. Small diaphragms to buy- mv692, m592. These mics are not any more expensive then new clones, plus they go up in value unlike the new stuff where its like driving a car off the lot!

Again, I'm not bashing the new stuff, there is nothing wrong with it, just saying that if you want vintage tone, buy a god damn vintage product. Also keep in mind that you now can sleep at night knowing that $2,000-$4000 you just spent will not depreciate over time.

Alex

[tree]

Originally Posted by RKrizman

...Also IMO the Grosser head baskets sounded better on the Flea body....

-R

... better than the Flea head basket sounded or better than AG basket sounded on AG body??
Did you ever find out if your friends replacement AG "fet tube" worked out better than his 1st?
Just curious. I use an AG47 here and it sure doesn't sound abrasive in any way.
Thanks.

[yotonic]

I know Rick has good ears and I have heard a couple of his own tracks with his Flea 47. That said, a properly functioning Andreas Grosser FET in a Voxorama definitely does not sound abrasive. In fact I find one of the nicest things about it to be the lack of abrasiveness. It has a wonderfully gentle depth and articulation to it, albeit subtle.

However at the same time I do agree that the subtlety and refinement of the AG can leave you wishing you had something more grandiose for the dollars you spent. At that level of craftsmanship incremental improvements come at a cost, I have noticed this with other boutique outboard gear as well.

[RKrizman]

Originally Posted by tree

... better than the Flea head basket sounded or better than AG basket sounded on AG body??
Did you ever find out if your friends replacement AG "fet tube" worked out better than his 1st?
Just curious. I use an AG47 here and it sure doesn't sound abrasive in any way.
Thanks.

That's why AG concluded that it was broken. Never heard the replacement. A guy can only go so far with all this, and I'm happy with where I'm at. Really not trying to prove anything, or convince anybody of anything, or be critical of anybody's product. Just relating my experiences.

To answer your other question, I liked the AG headbaskets on the Flea body better than on the Voxorama body. For better or worse, the Flea just goes lower and wider. It's part of their aesthetic, and is apparent in all of their mics that I've tried. Of all the clones I tried, the only one that had low end approaching my buddy's vintage 47 was the Flea. That said, when I've borrowed his mic I've had to roll off some bass consistently. Everything comes with it's opportunity cost. Other people might appreciate a tighter and more attenuated low end, or a fizzier high end (for lack of a better term).

-R

[Fletcher]

Hey Rick - stop for a second and think where you're writing this... around these parts - it doesn't matter what you think about a tool that you use for your work... what matters is that you have ALL of the right buzz words inside the body housing.

Sheesh... would have thought you understood that concept by now - and really, taking the time from your day to actually share things you found that relate to your work [that don't necessarily agree with common GS knowledge] - how dare you!!!

Peace

[tree]

Rick, Yotonic,
Thanks for clarifying.

While I've been able to listen to most of these mics individually, as too many others here, living where I do, it's been almost impossible to get them in the same room at the same time. Comparing accumulated session files and reading others experiences has been invaluable.

fwiw. I'm knocked out most by the AGs smoothness in upper mids. Tho i suppose that could also play into what Yotonic is saying ...

Originally Posted by yotonic

...At that level of craftsmanship incremental improvements come at a cost, I have noticed this with other boutique outboard gear as well.

... one for the book for sure.

[foldback]

Originally Posted by RKrizman

That's why AG concluded that it was broken. Never heard the replacement. A guy can only go so far with all this, and I'm happy with where I'm at. Really not trying to prove anything, or convince anybody of anything, or be critical of anybody's product. Just relating my experiences.

To answer your other question, I liked the AG headbaskets on the Flea body better than on the Voxorama body. For better or worse, the Flea just goes lower and wider. It's part of their aesthetic, and is apparent in all of their mics that I've tried. Of all the clones I tried, the only one that had low end approaching my buddy's vintage 47 was the Flea. That said, when I've borrowed his mic I've had to roll off some bass consistently. Everything comes with it's opportunity cost. Other people might appreciate a tighter and more attenuated low end, or a fizzier high end (for lack of a better term).

-R

Rick, thanks for all the time you've put into your responses.

Since I started this thread I've moved from St Louis to LA (in my 4th year here) and had the opportunity to hear three more REAL vintage U-47 mic's.

My first comparison was with a pair of U-47 I rented, they both sounded very different from each other. In retrospect neither of them were particularly great and I ended up buying a new Peluso 2247LE because it sounded cleaner. After using that mic for a year we grew to hate it and thought it sounded shrill so it went on ebay.

Now I've heard some more REAL vintage U-47 and honestly, I just don't think it's MY vocal sound and I'm quite positive it's not the right choice on my female partners vocals.

It's really a matter of doing your due diligence and testing, trying, listening and listening some more.

Thank you to all for your passionate responses, I love sharing this info about the stuff we care about. Carry on!

[RKrizman]

Wow, I just noticed all the eBay ads at the bottom of the page. I should get a sales commission just for keeping this thread alive.

Over and out.

-R

[bluejbill]

I'm the guy Rick is referring to. Yes, the original FET on the Grosser was defective, and he quickly shipped me one that was working correctly. The first one exhibited some 5K crunch when pushed, almost a distortion in that range. I'm happy to say that the second FET is far better without any of those problems.

At the same time he shipped me several headbaskets (by the way, they come from Flea I believe), with different capsules in them, in case the problem turned out not to be the FET. We tired two different Thiersch M7's, a Thiersch reskinned K47, and a new Neumann. All sounded great. The M7's had a bit more bottom and sounded a tad scooped, and one was a bit better than the other. The Thiersch reskin was better for me, a more immediate midrange character. The new Neumann K47 had the best realism and detail in the mids, and a bit less bottom than the others. It also sounded great on the Flea, being nicely filled out on the bottom by that mike. The Flea definitely has a bit more bottom than the Grosser, perhaps at the expense of midrange detail, but no biggie.

BTW I have compared this mike to three excellent U47's, and it is definitely in the ballpark. The originals sound a tad more relaxed, and the Grosser has a bit more upper mid presence. If you can't make a good recording with any of these, or the Flea, time to move to a new business model. Although I can see that the U47 is not the best for all voices. The Grosser is a bit better for females than the originals I think, but still not necessarily the first choice there. For pretty much all men and alto females, they sound great. But they are not aggressive mikes like U67's and U87's. They have a presence peak, but they are smooth. They don't bark like the newer mikes, something to consider if you are looking to buy. They take EQ and compression extremely well.

I also tried a real VF14 that Andreas sent me, as well as three other original unused VF14's. I liked them a tad more than the FET, but not for the reasons you might think. They actually don't sound much "tubier", for want of a better word. In fact the FET has a bit more bottom. But they do add a bit- just not $2000 worth, IMHO.

Originally Posted by tree

... better than the Flea head basket sounded or better than AG basket sounded on AG body??
Did you ever find out if your friends replacement AG "fet tube" worked out better than his 1st?
Just curious. I use an AG47 here and it sure doesn't sound abrasive in any way.
Thanks.

[yotonic]

Well said Bill, you articulated quite nicely my thoughts and experiences with the Voxorama as well.

I'm drawn to mics with big low ends, just like Sir Mixalot, but the Grosser made me realize that perhaps I need to show more restraint and control in my choices/decisions.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Alex Breaux

I have A/B'd my 47 and others to many clones in front of many people. Every time I have done this, I get the same results, the same responses from the listeners. Due to those results I have sold everything I have "other then my aea R44" and bought all vintage.

Man, I'm glad I'm not you alex. I'd probably be divorced.

I've had the opposite reaction many times, but hey, that's just me - WTH do I know. I'm not all about posing with the vintage crew, just about recording great stuff - no matter what the venue. This is an unbelievable era for new mics. Many great ones to be had for much less than a "vintage" maintenance project - in both the clone and original vibes. For my money, I've heard a $700 "clone" that was for all intents and purposes indistinguishable from a great 48 that I auditioned on a great vocalist in a GREAT studio.

But what the hell do I know. JMNSHO.....

[Alex Breaux]

Originally Posted by drBill

Man, I'm glad I'm not you alex. I'd probably be divorced.

I've had the opposite reaction many times, but hey, that's just me - WTH do I know. I'm not all about posing with the vintage crew, just about recording great stuff - no matter what the venue. This is an unbelievable era for new mics. Many great ones to be had for much less than a "vintage" maintenance project - in both the clone and original vibes. For my money, I've heard a $700 "clone" that was for all intents and purposes indistinguishable from a great 48 that I auditioned on a great vocalist in a GREAT studio.

But what the hell do I know. JMNSHO.....

Not much when your a legend in your own mind. ; )

Hey, at least you have some Gefells, good man.

[tree]

Originally Posted by bluejbill

I'm the guy Rick is referring to. Yes, the original FET on the Grosser was defective, and he quickly shipped me one that was working correctly. The first one exhibited some 5K crunch when pushed, almost a distortion in that range. I'm happy to say that the second FET is far better without any of those problems.

At the same time he shipped me several headbaskets (by the way, they come from Flea I believe), with different capsules in them, in case the problem turned out not to be the FET. We tired two different Thiersch M7's, a Thiersch reskinned K47, and a new Neumann. All sounded great. The M7's had a bit more bottom and sounded a tad scooped, and one was a bit better than the other. The Thiersch reskin was better for me, a more immediate midrange character. The new Neumann K47 had the best realism and detail in the mids, and a bit less bottom than the others. It also sounded great on the Flea, being nicely filled out on the bottom by that mike. The Flea definitely has a bit more bottom than the Grosser, perhaps at the expense of midrange detail, but no biggie.

BTW I have compared this mike to three excellent U47's, and it is definitely in the ballpark. The originals sound a tad more relaxed, and the Grosser has a bit more upper mid presence. If you can't make a good recording with any of these, or the Flea, time to move to a new business model. Although I can see that the U47 is not the best for all voices. The Grosser is a bit better for females than the originals I think, but still not necessarily the first choice there. For pretty much all men and alto females, they sound great. But they are not aggressive mikes like U67's and U87's. They have a presence peak, but they are smooth. They don't bark like the newer mikes, something to consider if you are looking to buy. They take EQ and compression extremely well.

I also tried a real VF14 that Andreas sent me, as well as three other original unused VF14's. I liked them a tad more than the FET, but not for the reasons you might think. They actually don't sound much "tubier", for want of a better word. In fact the FET has a bit more bottom. But they do add a bit- just not $2000 worth, IMHO.

Great description. Thanks for taking the time, Bill.
Andreas has mentioned the idea of trying alternate baskets a couple of times now as an experiment to try sometime, but between being quite knocked out already by the mic and being just too busy, i'd put the thought on the back burner... you're post has me rethinking now though.
In u47s with K47s that I've had occasion to check out, i thought the point they showed in upper midrange might be a drag in some instances at mix.
Realize it's a bit nuts to split hairs - it's such a great mic - but for the investment at hand, guess it's worth checking out even more options.
Did you end up with 2 baskets then?
Cue distant cha-ching-ing sound

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Alex Breaux

Not much when your a legend in your own mind. ; )

Hey, at least you have some Gefells, good man.

I wish I was a legend in my own mind. Then I could start talking trash like you. Thanks for the mic lesson kid. I'm off to sell all my mics except the Gefells. I should keep those? Right?

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by drBill

I'm off to sell all my mics except the Gefells. I should keep those? Right?

Right

[Plush]

FLEA is the stuff of modern legend. It offers a beautiful U47 tone.

I also like the sound the Lawson offers. It is not really a U47 sound but it is a very high quality American mic made by skilled and likeable people.

There are, in fact, a LOt of not likeable individuals offering U47 clones. I reject out of hand the oily, the lazy, the mang coming towards me with eye wash. I avoid the hoser, the poseur, the car racer and the Texan.

Applied knowledge and study, not a Gearslutz Fact, results in a fine product.

I now only give my money to Ivan and crew at FLEA--SLOVAKIA

[Alex Breaux]

Originally Posted by drBill

I wish I was a legend in my own mind. Then I could start talking trash like you. Thanks for the mic lesson kid. I'm off to sell all my mics except the Gefells. I should keep those? Right?

Your wish came true right when you started talking about those sweet grammys, and your astronomical amount of experience.

And thats a good idea, Bill. You should. As a matter of fact, if you want more of those Gefells, let me know, I'm getting quite the inventory here. I'll post some pics of that in a few weeks, I think you will like it.

But I'm sorry, I don't have any Chinese u47 clones for you.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Alex Breaux

But I'm sorry, I don't have any Chinese u47 clones for you.

No but you got plenty of great advice to help us all figure out what it is we're doing. Don't know what we did it for all those years without a 24 y/o expert telling us how to get r done.....