Will modern Gibsons become collectors items?

[CJ1973]

Custom shop and Historic reissues are amazing. For instance, Gibson used some of the finest wood in the mid to late 90s and folks who hear good sounds will always pay more for collector items with a better tone. Period. Just like a vintage car with a fantastic engine.

[noah330]

Who knows.

I have a whole bunch of old Gibson guitars (I collect 54 - 60 Standards and have others too).

I buy them because I like them and I have been doing so since I was a kid.

I have some new ones (I have a Moderne, a bunch of Historic models, a couple of those Tribute ones and a reissue Junior) and they're all nice.

I see people praising the 90s Gibson guitars now. I don't agree that (most) of them were anything to write home about - although they were nice.

Of course, people sell a 1990 Strat as a "vintage" guitar now so who knows.

As for anything with preloaded "collector" value, usually they're not going to be all that rare because people will buy them and not play them.

[jdsowa]

I say no.

Think about comic books and baseball cards. In the 50s and 60s, nobody thought they'd ever have any collectible value. So they became rare and now they're worth money. In the late 80s/early 90s--they were mass produced and people were buying them conscious of a potential for future collectibility. Barring some exceptions here and there, they have not appreciated like people hoped. Ken Griffey rookie cards go unsold on ebay with $1.99 starting bids.

If you want a guitar from *the* important era of rock, you get a late 50s/60s instrument. If that's out of your range, but you want to get as close as you can, you settle for a late 60s/70s model.

Beyond that, you're getting pretty far removed from that original source of rock mojo.

The guitar was a vital instrument from 1955-1999. Since Kid A came out, computers have been the instrument of choice for the kids. Sure, there will continue to be guitar-based bands, but basically the era of that instrument's dominance is over. It's tough to sell people on the collectibility of instruments that were made in an era when no important rock records were being made.

[CJ1973]

Originally Posted by jdsowa

. Since Kid A came out, computers have been the instrument of choice for the kids. Sure, there will continue to be guitar-based bands, but basically the era of that instrument's dominance is over. It's tough to sell people on the collectibility of instruments that were made in an era when no important rock records were being made.

Wrong wrong...hate to burst your bubble here but I'm more a computer guy myself and into daws for music but I was talking to a cat at Fender and apparently the sales have never been this good. Kids went through the mp3 phase and will continue but a lot of kids are like "'dad whats this eagles record or toto record' why does this sound warm open and musical to my ear?" etc. Kids are not silly so they know what is best, the ears don't lie. Folks want an easy route that is creative but now want to up the quality and out do what is done. Also remember..kids these days have free online lessons on YouTube and a wealth of information at the tip of their fingers..all they need is an axe to play it with..once they get good and they start working and can afford, they will want to get a better axe. Finally, it's also about kids around the world. Korea Japan etc are now on US Billboard. When they switch more from cheesy pop to real instruments and they know more about Jimmy page and Hendrix they are also going to want to dig deep. Guitars ain't baseball cards!! They have a purpose and hence called an instrument.

[bigbongo]

Originally Posted by jdsowa

The guitar was a vital instrument from 1955-1999. Since Kid A came out, computers have been the instrument of choice for the kids. Sure, there will continue to be guitar-based bands, but basically the era of that instrument's dominance is over. It's tough to sell people on the collectibility of instruments that were made in an era when no important rock records were being made.

What an interesting thought, could we see Vintage Acid house era Atari 1040 STFMs for sale on Ebay in 20 years for £7999?

... I hope not I sold mine for about £100 10 years ago.

[jdsowa]

Originally Posted by CJ1973

Wrong wrong...hate to burst your bubble here but I'm more a computer guy myself and into daws for music but I was talking to a cat at Fender and apparently the sales have never been this good. Kids went through the mp3 phase and will continue but a lot of kids are like "'dad whats this eagles record or toto record' why does this sound warm open and musical to my ear?" etc. Kids are not silly so they know what is best, the ears don't lie. Folks want an easy route that is creative but now want to up the quality and out do what is done. Also remember..kids these days have free online lessons on YouTube and a wealth of information at the tip of their fingers..all they need is an axe to play it with..once they get good and they start working and can afford, they will want to get a better axe. Finally, it's also about kids around the world. Korea Japan etc are now on US Billboard. When they switch more from cheesy pop to real instruments and they know more about Jimmy page and Hendrix they are also going to want to dig deep. Guitars ain't baseball cards!! They have a purpose and hence called an instrument.

You grew up listening to rock music. So in your mind, guitar music is the "best" music. And because it's the "best" music, people will for some reason return to it.

But say you were part of an earlier generation that grew up on big band music. The year is now 1967. To you, big band is the "best" music, and it's just a matter of time before the kids go back to it--because it's "the best". Because people are naturally tasteful and always return to the best things--just because. And you point to the fact that the Beatles had a couple saxophones quote Glen Miller in "All You Need is Love" as proof that things will inevitably go back to the way they were, once the kids drop this pop trash and go back to real musicianship and classy arrangements. Only they never did.

Music is fashion. Fashion means sticking with the latest technology and not repeating what your grandparents did. That's the reason why the kids in 60s rock bands didn't reach for the clarinets and double basses. Again, guitars will always be used to some extent. But to suggest that the guitar return to its former position as the dominant instrumental texture, when it's been explored to death for 50 years, is just not realistic.

[CJ1973]

Originally Posted by jdsowa

You grew up listening to rock music.
.

Haha are you for real? Do you even know if I'm male or female? You must have had a dream. I did not grow up listening to guitar music and all I did was synth pop. Anything I had on Billboard is all synth and in the YouTube era. How about you? Let's see...you are ignorant enough to think everyone is oldschool as opposed to new school with an open mind. Go buy a Gibson and learn to play it. You may just wake up from your little dream

[jdsowa]

Originally Posted by CJ1973

Haha are you for real? Do you even know if I'm male or female? You must have had a dream. I did not grow up listening to guitar music and all I did was synth pop. Anything I had on Billboard is all synth and in the YouTube era. How about you? Let's see...you are ignorant enough to think everyone is oldschool as opposed to new school with an open mind. Go buy a Gibson and learn to play it. You may just wake up from your little dream

I can always count on Gearslutz.com for intelligent conversation between adults.

[CJ1973]

Originally Posted by jdsowa

I can always count on Gearslutz.com for intelligent conversation between adults.

Adults? Yes. Intelligent? Not sure. Why? Because you are quoting things I never said. You mention Beatles and Big Band...i never even mentioned those... Are you reading the right thread?

[kennybro]

You'd actually need a crystal ball to know for sure. People make things collectible. The thing itself has nothing to do with it. Baseball cards are marterialistically worth about a nickel, if that. An average Warhol has about 50 bucks in it, but could sell for $100M.

If people 30 years from now are coveting the guitars made today, there will be collectibles around. If not, there won't be. Personally, I wouldn't buy a guitar hoping that it will be collectible, but then Gibson stopped making classic Les Pauls in '60 because nobody was buying them.

You can't really know anymore than you can know which horse will cross the line first or tomorrow's lotto numbers.

[deathromantik]

I guess the Gibson Robot Guitar will. I know I want one, because being able to switch from standard to open G minor at the touch of a button sounds sweet to me and I like the blue and silver paint job.

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by axeman_uk

the short answer is no the long answer is you only have to look at comics to see what will happen to the modern gibsons , 50's - 60's comics first editions and new appearences of characters are worth alot of money and this started to become apparent in the late part of the last century, people started buying more comics and putting them away (maybe to put there son/daughter through collage) fast forward in time all these new comics are pretty much worthless no way near the value people thought they were going to be, to many in exsistance in mint condition, same thing will happen to the new gibsons to many people collect them as an investment/cool item to have and dont really play them or have 2-5 of them and only really play 1 of them the others sleep in there cases in mint condition .

Erm, I don't know if that's entirely true - a lot of the value in the comics market has to do with the fact that the cheap, high acid paper they're printed on crumbles to dust if they're not VERY well taken care of so there's a real scarcity thing going on with the old ones, as people didn't take very good care of them back then.

Guitars are not the same.

HOWEVER - the "collector's market" for guitars is way overpriced right now - there are too many idiots buying guitars as "investments" instead of instruments to be played. (I hate those people.) This has also resulted in inflated prices for guitars that are rare because everybody thought they were dogs when they were new so they didn't sell.

[CJ1973]

Guitars are probably not as over priced as they were a few years ago before the market crash but certainly there is a demand for well crafted Pauls. The fact is Gibson factory, especially custom shop, like Fender, have a limited amount of craftspersons who do the special guitars with detailed attention. These guitars will always be limited in quantity and availability so it will have a demand no matter what. I'm don't even call myself a guitarist and I took a tour of the Fender factory in Fullerton, CA. It's breathtaking how much detail goes in and how hands on the workmanship really is. Even the 'lady' who has wound coils for Leo from 40 years ago and was brought back in, still has her cubicle where all she does is wind coils for certain guitars. I so recommend digging deep into a visit or understanding the craftsmanship that goes into making these instruments, especially the higher end pieces/custom shop stuff.

[cwillms]

All I can say is I bought a "new" Les Paul Classic in 2008 and I have no regrets and no illusions. It is a great guitar, the QC was excellent but for the set up. I doubt it will ever be a collectors item, but it also will never be valueless like some pretty great guitars made by Ibanez, Schecter, Yamaha and others. So the answer is no - the run of the mill Gibson will not be a collectors item, but it's always going to be worth while.

[Lenzo]

Move ahead 50 years to 2072 and who knows what will be valuable. Gibson might have gone out of business in say 2030 and 40 years later all gibsons might be worth more than people paid for them in 2012. The fact that a 59 Paul can fetch a quarter of a million dollars is crazy. It's not just the age, but there is something about that particular model that collectors see as valuable. But if I could see the future I wouldn't have given away or sold so many 60's era gibsons and fenders so cheaply in the 70's. If you have a great Gibson or any other great guitar, then play it as much as you can...the sheer enjoyment of playing well and often is worth a lot.
L.

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by Lenzo

The fact that a 59 Paul can fetch a quarter of a million dollars is crazy.

No, it's criminal. The buttholes who pay those prices never even play the instruments.

[kennybro]

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

No, it's criminal. The buttholes who pay those prices never even play the instruments.

The geniuses who payed $250k for Les Pauls since 2006 have been delivered to their punishment

[CJ1973]

Yeah doesn't Bill Gates' business partner own Hendrix's White Strat?
In this case though id condemn him if he played it....it's too sacred to be played by hands that sit on a key pad all day.

[BasHermus]

Hmmmmm.....

What were you doing when you wrote this ;-)

[Steve@39]

As the song goes.. "these are the good old days..."

[CJ1973]

Originally Posted by BasHermus

Hmmmmm.....

What were you doing when you wrote this ;-)

Aaa wellllllll....I was practicing scales? and using IPhone Siri lol

[noah330]

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

HOWEVER - the "collector's market" for guitars is way overpriced right now - there are too many idiots buying guitars as "investments" instead of instruments to be played. (I hate those people.) This has also resulted in inflated prices for guitars that are rare because everybody thought they were dogs when they were new so they didn't sell.

I don't know what 'collector's market' you're looking at. Prices have tanked from where they were a few years ago.

I bought two Bursts last year for less then half (I actually did trade heavy deals with some cash) of what they would have been in 05/06.

I never bought guitars because they were worth a ton of money, I bought them because I like to play guitar.

I'm not a huge fan of modern music, but I like some of it. I know it seems that kids today are much more interested in 60s/70s/80s/90s music then kids were into older stuff when I was younger - and I'm in my mid 30s.

I think YouTube, movies and tv shows, advertising and the whole Nintendo guitar games have introduced kids to all the music of the past. I have never heard a young kid (I have 3) say that an old record sounds musical and warm like someone suggested. I have had my kids ask me to load older music onto their mp3 players because they like the song.

[nuthinupmysleeve]

No freakin' way. In today's world there are $500 all solid wood acoustic guitars made in a factory in china that are as good as what Gibson is selling for 10 times as much. The world has changed, and the only thing Gibson has over the competition is their name and legacy, IMHO. Sure they still make good instruments, but they are priced far too high for what you get. Maybe if you care about how ornate your guitar is it might be with it, but it's not about sound at that point.

[CJ1973]

Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve

.The world has changed, and the only thing Gibson has over the competition is their name and legacy, IMHO. .

I hate to point it out but name and legacy is a huge part in anything...take Jordan, RollsRoyce or let's say Cadillacs for that matter. Let's for once not look at what comes from China but what goes there. If Chinese guitars had a brand name, they would be sold at 20times. Let's also appreciate the fact that Chinese consumers also have $ and prefer UK/European products and therefore the guitars in the US will go up. Just like a Cadillac being sold for three times in China. No faking or copying those.

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve

No freakin' way. In today's world there are $500 all solid wood acoustic guitars made in a factory in china that are as good as what Gibson is selling for 10 times as much. The world has changed, and the only thing Gibson has over the competition is their name and legacy, IMHO. Sure they still make good instruments, but they are priced far too high for what you get. Maybe if you care about how ornate your guitar is it might be with it, but it's not about sound at that point.

You have no idea. Would you like to get paid what their workers get paid? And it is a communist country, so you don't know if they sell their products at a loss or not... how much money does their government throw in to support these industries while they put ours out of business? That is how the pacific rim destroyed our steel industry... with the support of their government. And if we don't watch out, we'll lose -all- of our manufacturing, and at that point we will be dead in the water, unable to compete on the international stage and unable to pay our debts.

[nuthinupmysleeve]

Originally Posted by Bill@WelcomeHome

You have no idea.

I respectfully beg to differ.

And if we don't watch out, we'll lose -all- of our manufacturing, and at that point we will be dead in the water, unable to compete on the international stage and unable to pay our debts.

If you are making an ethical argument, I actually quite agree. You didn't mention quality anywhere in your post.

If you are talking about the US, "we" have already lost most of our manufacturing.

I believe Gibson is clearly using their brand name and legacy as a way to sell for higher prices. There are many who think that is fair (and of course it is in a free enterprise). If people think they are buying higher quality for those extra dollars, I beg to disagree. I also think, if you really care about US jobs, you would give your money to a local luthier rather than a huge company like Gibson. You'd not only get a better product for the same money but you'll be supporting someone in your direct community... and you might just get something that is unique. Of course, most people are buying "me too" guitars rather than unique, so I guess that might be a moot point.

[nuthinupmysleeve]

Originally Posted by CJ1973

I hate to point it out but name and legacy is a huge part in anything

You are right, but my argument was really about the quality of Gibson products. Perception is different, IMHO... valid, but not really what I was saying.

I think if people believe they extra dollars they are paying for Gibson might be for higher quality, I disagree. If they are paying for legacy and/or ethical (buy USA) reasons, they are making a thoughtful decision... but it's not about quality.

[Silent Sound]

Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve

No freakin' way. In today's world there are $500 all solid wood acoustic guitars made in a factory in china that are as good as what Gibson is selling for 10 times as much. The world has changed, and the only thing Gibson has over the competition is their name and legacy, IMHO. Sure they still make good instruments, but they are priced far too high for what you get. Maybe if you care about how ornate your guitar is it might be with it, but it's not about sound at that point.

I own some Chinese made instruments and electronics of various brands. Most of them are good bargains, but I'd never say their quality is anywhere near where most American or German products are. Exactly which $500 Chinese guitar is on par with a Gibson? I'd like to know and save myself some money.

Now, as for this collectability, history is our best indicator, but it's not clear on this one. Yes, comic books and baseball cards have bottomed out. There's still the supply and demand propping up the value of some of the older and more rare and desired comics and cards, but the newer ones are just too common and not desired enough to pull any value. Modern instruments from most manufacturers could be seen this way. I'd have trouble believing that any guitar made after the 1970's will continue to grow in value much above what a comparable new instrument would cost. In other words, their value would be assessed as a tool, not a collectable.

That being said, this is the music industry. Look at old violins. There are some million dollar instruments out there that people would gladly pay for, given the opportunity to own one. I don't know enough about the history of Stradivarius pricing to say if they have always commanded such figures (adjusted for inflation of course) or if they're currently in a bubble. But it appears there is some precedent for instruments to hold their value more like art than a collectable.

If, however, I were to make a bet on which guitars where going to go up in value over time, I wouldn't put my money on currently made Gibson's. The market is too saturated and there are far too many people that claim "They don't make them like they used to". And that's a big hurdle to overcome for any manufacturer in today's market.

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve

....you would give your money to a local luthier rather than a huge company like Gibson. ....

Until I retired a few years ago I had between 36 and 40 guitars and basses that were on a regular rotation through my luthier to keep them all tweaked and performing properly. I also had him build a custom electric for me, and I have a custom made Santa Cruz, so I suspect that I've spent quite a bit more in that area than most people.

Yes, it is an ethical argument. I try to buy as much 'made in USA' as I can. I support the US labor force as much as I can, and I do not begrudge them their wages. A big part of our problems today stem from jealousy among workers and our short-sighted demand for cheaper products.... which can only be supplied by counties with a lower standard of living than what we enjoy, or by countries where the manufacturing is supported by the governments. It is the Walmarting of the US, as quality is no longer a consideration if the product is cheap enough. We are selfish and spoiled, we want everything when we want it, we do not save or wait for anything. So we accept crap, instead of demanding the best, so long as it is cheap and I can get it right now. The really sad part about this is that my generation, with all the best intentions, raised the people who feel that way.

[nuthinupmysleeve]

Originally Posted by Bill@WelcomeHome

Yes, it is an ethical argument. I try to buy as much 'made in USA' as I can.

Yes, but it's getting harder and harder to do so.

It is the Walmarting of the US, as quality is no longer a consideration if the product is cheap enough. We are selfish and spoiled, we want everything when we want it, we do not save or wait for anything. So we accept crap, instead of demanding the best, so long as it is cheap and I can get it right now. The really sad part about this is that my generation, with all the best intentions, raised the people who feel that way.

The interesting thing is the US and China seem to be building guitars the same way for the most part, using the same machines and same process. I don't think you are "accepting crap" when buying Chinese made gear anymore. Their stuff can be pretty much the same quality now, when made using the same materials (solid woods, quality components). That makes it a more difficult argument IMHO... I don't think it's a quality argument anymore.

I see Gibson as more of a problem then a solution. They try and make themselves out to be craftspeople when the majority of their gear is probably made the same way... assembly line, not "crafted." I think they are hurting the argument. A local luthier is an entirely different thing... you might very well be paying for a craftsman.