VOX AC15 or AC30 for Recording?

[elan]

Thank you

BTW I don't know the AC30 sound, I heard only CC version and some handwired and a couple of vintage in Youtube... they seems all very similar, probably vintage one are a bit different but that's also because the CC I've heard were new (you know shop that does demo on youtube..) so.. part of the sound is because the speakers need some hours/months to break in... while the vintage ones have been played for a lot of time and also some caps surely need to be replaced and that contribute to the smoother and less predictable, sound...

But, BTW, I liked the CC, specially with Alnico Blue, and I have the chance to exchange the Twin with an AC30 CC2 with Alnico Blue... that's my first VOX

I haven't the money to buy a vintage one and also I don't want to buy 10 of them to find one usable and reliable... I got a Sunn (bass, the 300T) that made me spend 1000 euros to repair it many times and never worked properly and, initially, I spent like 3.500 euros or more to buy it... and it was new, I don't want to repeat this experience, I cannot afford it

[patheticus]

Originally Posted by elan

Thank you

BTW I don't know the AC30 sound, I heard only CC version and some handwired and a couple of vintage in Youtube... they seems all very similar, probably vintage one are a bit different but that's also because the CC I've heard were new (you know shop that does demo on youtube..) so.. part of the sound is because the speakers need some hours/months to break in... while the vintage ones have been played for a lot of time and also some caps surely need to be replaced and that contribute to the smoother and less predictable, sound...

But, BTW, I liked the CC, specially with Alnico Blue, and I have the chance to exchange the Twin with an AC30 CC2 with Alnico Blue... that's my first VOX

I haven't the money to buy a vintage one and also I don't want to buy 10 of them to find one usable and reliable... I got a Sunn (bass, the 300T) that made me spend 1000 euros to repair it many times and never worked properly and, initially, I spent like 3.500 euros or more to buy it... and it was new, I don't want to repeat this experience, I cannot afford it

You do realize that Custom classics are not actually AC30's so it would be impossible for one two ever sound like a real 6 input AC30. The CC (Custom Classic) is a completely different amp in a similar looking case that they called an AC30. It's the same as slapping a BMW emblem on a DaeWoo or a KIA. No matter how long you break in a Custom Classic it will never sound like a real AC30 because it's a totally different circuit design. I always thought of it as a Crate dressed up as a Vox.

And you don't have to spend nearly that much money to get a 90's 6 input resissue AC30. Those are much much better amps than the Custom Classics.

[Drywsef]

Originally Posted by patheticus

You do realize that Custom classics are not actually AC30's so it would be impossible for one two ever sound like a real 6 input AC30. The CC (Custom Classic) is a completely different amp in a similar looking case that they called an AC30. It's the same as slapping a BMW emblem on a DaeWoo or a KIA. No matter how long you break in a Custom Classic it will never sound like a real AC30 because it's a totally different circuit design. I always thought of it as a Crate dressed up as a Vox.

And you don't have to spend nearly that much money to get a 90's 6 input resissue AC30. Those are much much better amps than the Custom Classics.

Kris (patheticus) gave me this same piece of advice last summer, and I got the 6-input reissue AC30 as a result. Never looked back. Workhorse of an amp.

[Draytone]

Yes, I would be looking around for one of the British re-issues from the 90's if it were me. Still a well built amp (PCB), but that will get you into the AC30's with the big boys for not as much outlay as a vintage model.

Its such a hard thing to explain. AC30's all have that mid-forward type growl (almost boxy) kinda tone, but its the nuances that differ between different amps. How sensitive one amp is from another etc. etc.

Its great that you are asking these questions, and once you get some play time under your belt on a few different amps, you'll be the one here passing along the advice

-Rob

[elan]

Originally Posted by patheticus

You do realize that Custom classics are not actually AC30's so it would be impossible for one two ever sound like a real 6 input AC30. The CC (Custom Classic) is a completely different amp in a similar looking case that they called an AC30. It's the same as slapping a BMW emblem on a DaeWoo or a KIA. No matter how long you break in a Custom Classic it will never sound like a real AC30 because it's a totally different circuit design. I always thought of it as a Crate dressed up as a Vox.

And you don't have to spend nearly that much money to get a 90's 6 input resissue AC30. Those are much much better amps than the Custom Classics.

Have you read one word I wrote in the thing you quoted?

I feel like you haven't done such thing

Do you know how much a CC costs here? 600 euros. Do you know a 6 TB whatever? 1600/1700 euros.

Now.
Do I care something if it sounds or not like the real thing? Also considering the more I read the more people tells me the real thing are actually the real things because no one sounds like another...

Two things, I don't want to get an unreliable amp and, the more I read, the more I see people who says the old are unreliable too.. even more and you can find one in good shape and reliable as you can find another one that needs a tech every week or every month depending on the use.

I do studio use with it, so, following my reasoning, if I can find a CC like new, bought, tried out, and resold, it will last forever in my studio... because I don't move it and I use it only when I need it.

If I spend 1600 euros to get a TB (yeah, my favorite band uses a TB 6) and I need to go to the tech monthly or has very bad problems that I cannot identify when I buy it, but after some months... well.. I'll be pretty pissed off

Considering here people doesn't tell you if it has problems (and actually I had problems with seller from US, UK and Germany) but the price tag is always the same, if it is broken of it is perfect... well.... which choice would you do for me considering these things?

[elan]

Originally Posted by Draytone

Yes, I would be looking around for one of the British re-issues from the 90's if it were me. Still a well built amp (PCB), but that will get you into the AC30's with the big boys for not as much outlay as a vintage model.

Its such a hard thing to explain. AC30's all have that mid-forward type growl (almost boxy) kinda tone, but its the nuances that differ between different amps. How sensitive one amp is from another etc. etc.

Its great that you are asking these questions, and once you get some play time under your belt on a few different amps, you'll be the one here passing along the advice

-Rob

Well, I don't like the boxy sound and none of the AC30 I heard from bands I like, have a boxy sound, actually it is really 3D, articulated, and deep. I've heard some AC15 in youtube that can get boxy... specially with pedals... but others sound more open then an AC30

[patheticus]

Originally Posted by elan

Well, I don't like the boxy sound and none of the AC30 I heard from bands I like, have a boxy sound, actually it is really 3D, articulated, and deep. I've heard some AC15 in youtube that can get boxy... specially with pedals... but others sound more open then an AC30

I know what he means by boxy and it's not a bad boxy or even what you'd think of when you say boxy. But when you hear a real AC30 in a room it's as if your guitar has been fit in to the exact frequencies it was meant be in. As it never goes to high or too low it just sits in this perfect range of frequencies and sounds incredible. And when I personally hear that, for some reason I the iagry I get from it is like the perfect cube of tone. I know that sounds stupid and I know I'm not explaining it well. But it's something you won't hear on youtube. But it is something I'm sure you've heard on a lot of your favorite records. And you would definitely hear it in person.

[elan]

Look, I already have a Twin Reverb '65 Reissue, which I prefer over many vintage I heard... and I perfectly know how great can sound an amp of that level, in a room

My point is I need it to sound great in recordings, not to fill a room. The room is treated so I can hear it perfectly well even at its lowest volume, I get great recordings from a Twin, but to push it, I distort the mic and the preamp (even considered is at its lowest setting)

Now, you understand why I don't too much care how much volume it has? I don't need to fill a room, I need to record it well

That's why I considered the ac15.
At the same time I don't want a boxy/muddy sound.. I want an amp that handles pedal well, much better then a Twin (which handles them very well, but it needs too much volume to do that, plus the AC30 seems less predictable, more expressive)

So, the ideal thing, to me, would be trying them side by side, but to do that I can only get an AC15 or an AC30 CC version... then if I fall in love with it I'll sell the Twin and maybe I'm able to find a TB 6 (which year? I've seen some of around 2000 that cost less.. what's different?)

[patheticus]

Originally Posted by elan

Look, I already have a Twin Reverb '65 Reissue, which I prefer over many vintage I heard... and I perfectly know how great can sound an amp of that level, in a room

My point is I need it to sound great in recordings, not to fill a room. The room is treated so I can hear it perfectly well even at its lowest volume, I get great recordings from a Twin, but to push it, I distort the mic and the preamp (even considered is at its lowest setting)

Now, you understand why I don't too much care how much volume it has? I don't need to fill a room, I need to record it well

That's why I considered the ac15.
At the same time I don't want a boxy/muddy sound.. I want an amp that handles pedal well, much better then a Twin (which handles them very well, but it needs too much volume to do that, plus the AC30 seems less predictable, more expressive)

So, the ideal thing, to me, would be trying them side by side, but to do that I can only get an AC15 or an AC30 CC version... then if I fall in love with it I'll sell the Twin and maybe I'm able to find a TB 6 (which year? I've seen some of around 2000 that cost less.. what's different?)

If you don't want problems, don't buy a tube amp, buy an Axe FX or Pod Farm. We have an amp repair shop here at the studio and I see a lot of newer custom classics come in. The only difference is when a TB 6 has problems it's usually a simple fix. A lot of the custom classics that come in have motherboard problems or have burnt up output transformers. And most end up having to get a whole new motherboard or output transformer. I believe it has to do with the lack of proper venting, cheap parts and cheap production. The only problems either of our AC30's have ever had are just worn out tubes and that's an easy fix. Especially in an AC30 I'm pretty sure the power tubes don't require any biasing (I could be totally wrong about them being self biasing, that's just what I'm remembering).

If reliability is your main concern, I would buy a custom built amp from a local vender who warranty it. All tube amps have problems. Newer mass production tube amps tend to have way more problems because they're chalked full of cheap parts and the way they are machined and layed out makes them pretty complicated to fix, but very cheap for the amp company to replace the whole thing with out having to do any actual repairs. Cheap for them, not for you. "Disposable circuits" is what our tech calls them.

[patheticus]

Originally Posted by elan

Look, I already have a Twin Reverb '65 Reissue, which I prefer over many vintage I heard... and I perfectly know how great can sound an amp of that level, in a room

My point is I need it to sound great in recordings, not to fill a room. The room is treated so I can hear it perfectly well even at its lowest volume, I get great recordings from a Twin, but to push it, I distort the mic and the preamp (even considered is at its lowest setting)

Now, you understand why I don't too much care how much volume it has? I don't need to fill a room, I need to record it well

That's why I considered the ac15.
At the same time I don't want a boxy/muddy sound.. I want an amp that handles pedal well, much better then a Twin (which handles them very well, but it needs too much volume to do that, plus the AC30 seems less predictable, more expressive)

So, the ideal thing, to me, would be trying them side by side, but to do that I can only get an AC15 or an AC30 CC version... then if I fall in love with it I'll sell the Twin and maybe I'm able to find a TB 6 (which year? I've seen some of around 2000 that cost less.. what's different?)

By the way, new Twins are very similar to the old ones. Even though their circuit board, they're basically the same circuit. I totally agree with you on the new ones sounding better than a lot of old ones. I've heard a few old twins that I like more than the reissues. But I've heard even more originals that sounded worse than the reissue.

AC30 TB 6's and AC30CC's aren't the same amp in any way. So the Twin Reverb example doesn't apply in your Vox situation. As for volume. I find AC30's to be much easier to mic at high volumes than a twin. A twin is 85 watts and pushes way more air. An AC30 is perceived as loud in the room. But it doesn't assault mics the way a cranked up Twin does.

[elan]

Look, the main point is I can't spend too much either in the amp or in the tech. I don't even know a good tech that's honest

I got this Twin for 3 years, never had a problem, never replaced a tube, never done anything.

So, tube amps, reliable, exist. At least mine.

[patheticus]

Originally Posted by elan

Look, the main point is I can't spend too much either in the amp or in the tech. I don't even know a good tech that's honest

I got this Twin for 3 years, never had a problem, never replaced a tube, never done anything.

So, tube amps, reliable, exist. At least mine.

I don't see many reissue twins come through shop. We do see a lot of Custom Classics, that's all I'm saying. If you buy a CC buy it new and make sure it has warranty.

[elan]

Originally Posted by patheticus

By the way, new Twins are very similar to the old ones. Even though their circuit board, they're basically the same circuit. I totally agree with you on the new ones sounding better than a lot of old ones. I've heard a few old twins that I like more than the reissues. But I've heard even more originals that sounded worse than the reissue.

AC30 TB 6's and AC30CC's aren't the same amp in any way. So the Twin Reverb example doesn't apply in your Vox situation. As for volume. I find AC30's to be much easier to mic at high volumes than a twin. A twin is 85 watts and pushes way more air. An AC30 is perceived as loud in the room. But it doesn't assault mics the way a cranked up Twin does.

I also read the TB 6 isn't like the real one, and it wasn't supposed to be like the real one... has more growl, less chime (from what I heard)

What I'm telling you is just that seems I like the CC... so initially I thought, maybe it hasn't that vibe of certain good ones... but maybe it will be like a Twin compared to, I don't know, a well maintained silverface with JBL speakers..

Yes, the Twin is brutal, you need a big room also for recordings.. and you almost cannot close mic it

BTW, do you think that, for a recording use, the AC15 would be better or not (considering my situation)... I mean, it will start sounding boxy (they way I intend boxy) at high volumes with distortions pushing the crap out of it, or you just think is always better the AC30?

Because what I think is that if I can find the right gain staging in an AC15, maybe will be better suited for my needs

p.s. where I can find reliable informations about the AC30 versions? Maybe I can find a Korg TB 6 around year 2000, cost less... and I don't understand what could be the difference...

the TB 6 are all point to point?

[patheticus]

Originally Posted by elan

I also read the TB 6 isn't like the real one, and it wasn't supposed to be like the real one... has more growl, less chime (from what I heard)

What I'm telling you is just that seems I like the CC... so initially I thought, maybe it hasn't that vibe of certain good ones... but maybe it will be like a Twin compared to, I don't know, a well maintained silverface with JBL speakers..

Yes, the Twin is brutal, you need a big room also for recordings.. and you almost cannot close mic it

BTW, do you think that, for a recording use, the AC15 would be better or not (considering my situation)... I mean, it will start sounding boxy (they way I intend boxy) at high volumes with distortions pushing the crap out of it, or you just think is always better the AC30?

Because what I think is that if I can find the right gain staging in an AC15, maybe will be better suited for my needs

p.s. where I can find reliable informations about the AC30 versions? Maybe I can find a Korg TB 6 around year 2000, cost less... and I don't understand what could be the difference...

the TB 6 are all point to point?

I don't think any Korg TB 6's are point to point. But they have a well layed out circuit board that's easy to repair. The one I have was built in 99 and some guitar players like it better than the original. Some don't, but no ones ever hated it. I've had a good amount of guitar players who owned CC's record with our Korg TB6 and immediately decided to sell there CC. I've never had a guitar player pick their own CC over one of our AC30's. Not once.

Another thing to consider if you do really want a new amp with lower wattage is a Fender Princeton Reverb reissue or a Marshall 18 clone. The marshall 18 uses to EL84's like an AC15 but sounds way cooler and you can pick up a point to point clone for pretty cheap.

18 Watt Hand Wired Marshall Circuit 2061X Clone Amp Amplifier No Reserve | eBay

[patheticus]

Originally Posted by patheticus

I don't think any Korg TB 6's are point to point. But they have a well layed out circuit board that's easy to repair. The one I have was built in 99 and some guitar players like it better than the original. Some don't, but no ones ever hated it. I've had a good amount of guitar players who owned CC's record with our Korg TB6 and immediately decided to sell there CC. I've never had a guitar player pick their own CC over one of our AC30's. Not once.

Another thing to consider if you do really want a new amp with lower wattage is a Fender Princeton Reverb reissue or a Marshall 18 clone. The marshall 18 uses to EL84's like an AC15 but sounds way cooler and you can pick up a point to point clone for pretty cheap.

18 Watt Hand Wired Marshall Circuit 2061X Clone Amp Amplifier No Reserve | eBay

Two other cool sounding amps in that realm are the Orange OR15 and the Tiny Terror. Both very different from an AC15. But if what you're looking for is an amp that cranks and sounds fantastic with out being super loud, those two orange models do it well.

[tomdarude]

I know it´s blasphemy....but

Have any of you slutz heard/played a Morgan AC20 Deluxe ??

[elan]

Yeah, but I don't like Marshall, any Marshall, actually I hate the Marshall sound and I don't like Orange too... too 2D for my taste. That's why I like Fender.. but nowadays I'm not liking its icepicky highs.. I like something that saturates more.. but then I heard Vox and now I think I just want a Vox :P

It is the funniest one :P at least seems
The others are too pretentious (even thought the Fender clean is something I'll always love and the concept behind a Fender amp.. I mean, they are technically the best amps out there)

So you mean a TB 6 from 94 to 2004 more or less, right? They are all identical.. no changes in the design?

[patheticus]

Originally Posted by elan

Yeah, but I don't like Marshall, any Marshall, actually I hate the Marshall sound and I don't like Orange too... too 2D for my taste. That's why I like Fender.. but nowadays I'm not liking its icepicky highs.. I like something that saturates more.. but then I heard Vox and now I think I just want a Vox :P

It is the funniest one :P at least seems
The others are too pretentious (even thought the Fender clean is something I'll always love and the concept behind a Fender amp.. I mean, they are technically the best amps out there)

So you mean a TB 6 from 94 to 2004 more or less, right? They are all identical.. no changes in the design?

Yep, they're pretty much all the same. And they are seriously awesome amps. Guitar players always fall in love with them too. They're extremely dynamic.

[elan]

Ok, I'll consider them...

The reason of the CC choice is that I'd like to compare a Twin with an AC30, or AC15, side by side, for some weeks, month.. then I'll decide if I want to keep the Twin and I like the CC too, or I like the CC because it is a VOX, so a different amp, but I want to find a good version of the AC30, like the TB6...

It's really hard for me to sell this Twin.. I kind of love it, even thought I hate it too :P

I need to hear how a Vox processes other stuff too.. like synths, bass.. I love the Twin with synths.. I love the Twin vibrato!!! (specially on synths..) it has soo much headroom that you could even throw a SUB synth and it doesn't moan :P

That's why I could keep the Twin as an amp with infinite headroom.. and the VOX as.. just the opposite (that's why I considered the AC15)

I also love the Vox sweetness!!... And, for what I heard I don't like it on the bass... for example, the amp I like more on the bass is the Bassman '59.. which, to me, actually doesn't sound old at all.. just natural.. I got the Twin because it has vibrato.. and more headroom (so I thought was good for the bass..)

BTW, thank you very much for the suggestions

[elan]

How is it an AC30 made in UK... 2004... 4 inputs (not 6)?

[Electric Blue]

I've had AC30's and 15's. Tried the custom classic and couldn't stand it. My 90's AC15 w/ the blue speaker is 90% my go to when seeking the Vox sound.

[elan]

Originally Posted by Electric Blue

I've had AC30's and 15's. Tried the custom classic and couldn't stand it. My 90's AC15 w/ the blue speaker is 90% my go to when seeking the Vox sound.

Why the AC15 instead the 30 (considering you have both)?
What are the differences? What do you prefer?

Thanks

[noah330]

They have a new 1 watt hand wired AC4 that I have my eye on.

If I wanted a 15 watt amp that has the Vox thing I would look for a Gibson GA-15.

[lane thaw]

I have an older AC-30 TB with Blue Celestions - nothing has ever blown me away like this amp does. I recently got the newer version AC-15 with the stock Greenback as the AC-30 is so damn heavy and too loud for some clubs. I was surprised how nice the AC-15 sounds - nice chime and takes pedals well. Does it sound like my AC-30, no, but it is still a good Vox sound. Perhaps with a Blue and some mod's it would be closer. Perhaps you can find a used AC-15 TB (from the early 90s I believe) and put a Blue in it. That's a great starting point if the price is not too dear.

[AwTAC]

I recently built an AC30. In researching the history of the circuit, it was pretty surprising to discover that there really is no *definitive* version of this amp and JMI went through a minimum of three different transformer suppliers that yielded VERY different sounding amps that might have well had different names. One thing is for absolute certain, the AC30 that the beatles were recording in 1964 was not the same amp that brian may was recording in 1971. Different transformers, different amp, same name. And since then, the "ac30" has been reissued so many times, by so many different people, its odd to read the threads about people talking about "the sound" as if its an absolute the way something far more consistent might be, like a JTM.

Anyway, point is, ac30's should be evaluated on a case by case basis.

The AC15 is a completely different amp all together, not just a half power ac30. First off, the preamp is totally different and was never in an ac30. Matchless used the ac15 preamp in some of the channels of their ac30 type amps but jmi never did to my knowledge. It uses a totally different transformer set, entirely different power supply, its just a different amp.

At the end of the day, with an ac15 circuit and an ac30 circuit plugged into the same 4x12 speaker cabinet, the 15 is not going to be significantly "less loud" than the 30. Some, sure. But if your neighbors are a problem they are not gonna like your ac15 any better than your ac30. 30 will have more clean headroom than the 15. Either has the potential to provide the foundation for a great recording.

[Steve@39]

I had two AC30s- a '64 and a '65, many years ago, did a lot of gigs with them and sold them for various financial reasons at the time..happy with the sound and never had many problems from memory. I got a loan of an early 60s AC30 about 10 years back and did some gigs with that- great sounding amp. Fast forward to 2007. I bought a standard new Vox Chinese AC30, and did a year of gigs with it, and it sounded superb with my Strat, and right up there with the old originals I used to have, it too got sold when the band broke up, and I later bought a new AC15c- another top sounding amp, but didn't like it live, though it was great in the studio- different character to the AC30. These days I just use a Fender Deluxe Reverb reissue with a couple of mods, and don't really want for any other amp live or recording.

[nedorama]

Originally Posted by elan

That's why I like Fender.. but nowadays I'm not liking its icepicky highs.. I like something that saturates more.. but then I heard Vox and now I think I just want a Vox :P

So you know this is much more due to the excessive headroom the Twin's 85 watts has as well as trying to recreate the brightness of the old JBL D120's that were in Twins in the day. If you swapped out the stock speakers for something less bright, you'd be better off and have a more usable amp. But a Twin is great for clean, pedals and not much else. Hopefully you have the Bright switch off. My Showman is the same amp topology as yours sans reverb, and through 2 Warehouse G12C speakers in a closed cab, there's no icepicky highs at all, even with the bright switch on.

If you want overdriven Fender, a Princeton or a Deluxe Reverb (silverface or reissue) would be the ticket.

If you like the CC, great, but people are telling you they're poorly made compared to the Korg made ones in the day. I'd try out the Korg version to see if you like it better. You'll be getting a better cabinet, speakers and more easily serviceable amp.

Just my $0.02.

[reelbigspikey]

I had the same question when I was buying my last guitar amp...AC30 vs AC15.

I settled on a Heritage AC15 with a Celestion Blue speaker. Not sure if they are still making them, but I'm sure you could find a used model. All the volume you could ever need, but breaks up at a more usable level than an AC30. Cool thing about the Heritage AC15 is that it is really two amps in one. First channel is a EF86 tube sound, more of the classic AC15 sound (also what Matchless amps are based on). This sounds warmer and more distorted to me. The second channel is a classic "Top Boost" channel that nails the jangly AC30 sound. Both channels have hi and low gain inputs. So really, it is like having a 4 channel amp. Well worth the small extra price IMO.

Another bonus is a switch that cuts the power output from 15 watts to 7.5watts. It is a great recording amp. There isn't a bad sound to be found in it.

[TurboJets]

Originally Posted by nedorama

If you like the CC, great, but people are telling you they're poorly made compared to the Korg made ones in the day. I'd try out the Korg version to see if you like it better. You'll be getting a better cabinet, speakers and more easily serviceable amp.

Just my $0.02.

I've got the Korg-made (korean) Cambridge 30 reverb twin w/tremelo and the tone is actually really nice. It's full, round, nice bottom end and the highs are smooth and sweet. The tube section is nice but I actually get fantastic tone from the solid state channel plugged straight into the amp. The tremelo is actually beautiful. I'd recommend the Korg Vox's to anyone.

Another korean made amp I like is the Kustom amps. Nice smooth tone.

[elan]

Originally Posted by nedorama

So you know this is much more due to the excessive headroom the Twin's 85 watts has as well as trying to recreate the brightness of the old JBL D120's that were in Twins in the day.

It's more because of the excessive headroom and the "scooped sound", which I think comes from the AMP not just the speaker. I've heard many Showmans sounding even more scooped than this.

I think the Fender sound I like the most is the one of the Bassman '59 (even thought I'd like to have more headroom in it, because on certain loud cleans or putting keyboards in it, it breaks up sometimes where I don't want to.. A master volume would solve that problem)

But maybe I don't like how pedals sound in a Fender.. they are usually too precise (the Bassman '59 less)... in the AC30 seems more interesting and expressive