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Klipschorn: Highly efficient: 105 dB 1W / 1M; What Amp?
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Faispastonben
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3rd December 2006
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Question Klipschorn: Highly efficient: 105 dB 1W / 1M; What Amp?

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Nobody use a low-power high-end amp?
If I drive monitors with Hi-fi amp, what is the best to un-balance the signal from my console?

Best ;-)

Ben
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These is no merit in a low wattage amp, per se. The point here is that this outrageously high efficiency permits use of low current designs, and that typical listening levels will be achieved with low wattage amps There is no disadvantage to using a high power Bryston, for example, to drive a high efficiency loudspeaker. A large part of the efficiency of a horn-loaded design like the classic Klipsch designs lies in the enclosure; that is, it's a high acoustic efficiency design. By this I mean that the drivers do not have an inherently low ability to dissipate heat; it's just that by the time the loudspeaker is disspipating 100 watts, listening levels are very high (read impractically high). It's been twenty five years since I last heard the Klipschorn, but a friend used to drive a pair with a Conrad Johnson tube amp that was in the range of 45 watts per channel. His were positioned in a 90 degree corner, as I believe the design calls for, and perceived loudness was really high.

Bryston amps, to give an example, offer balanced inputs. Others high end amps do as well, so you may not need to make an unbalanced conversion.

It's a little bit of an unusual loudspeaker for studio monitoring, I think. What got you on to the Klipschorn?

Best,

John-
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I try some monitors in my control room ... from BM15A to AIR20 with sub...
My problem is my room is small, 13*15... height 7.5...
I never find a good placement for my monitors.
Either I had no bass or then no low-mid... The walls are too close ->filtering !!!
I heard the Klipshorn and I say Waw!!!
They need to be placed in the corner to create bass... that's why, me and acoustics experts think that will be a good solution...
We think it's better to drive them with 2 amps per monitor to adjust the low register compared to the mid and high regsiter....
I continue to use my NS10 with my Quad... :-)




So I try to find somethnig like Bryston 2B SST Pro... maybe ;-)


(Sorry for my poor english, I read better than I write ;-) )
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There are plenty of amps, high and low power that can work with those monsters. But I wish you best luck with it, if you have tried and succeeded then I can't argue, but I would not attempt mixing on those kinds of speakers myself.

I've had their close cousin La Scalas here many times over the years, for parties etc., not for mixing. The cabinets are too low to hear properly while sitting at a desk for one thing. And I could not imagine using them in a smallish room without bypassing the internal crossovers and wiring up my own external tri-amp setup, and that is what I did. Otherwise they are all scream, no bass, unless driven to 105+ dB. Not for the faint of heart.

I think you need some acoustic treatment first....

Steve
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I understand a little better now. As for bi-amping the Klipschorn, this may give a little more control between LF and MF-HF drivers, so long as your pre-power amp crossover network is well designed.

It sounds like your room may benefit from some LF-absorption (bass traps), with or without a corner-loaded speaker like the Klipschorn. Have you attempted any bass trapping?

Your wriiten English is certainly superior to my Dutch or German!

John-
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john caldwell View Post

Your wriiten English is certainly superior to my Dutch or German!

John-
STRASBOURG is in france!!! ;-)

Quote:
but I would not attempt mixing on those kinds of speakers myself.
Why? They sound very detailled... A really large frequency range... quality in tone in the low register... better sounding than my BM15A...and a low price compared to a air20 with sub... ,-)


I ve no problem with bass rumble... the room frequency response is flat... I'll show you the TR60... But , due to the proximity to the walls, the low register and/or low mids are canceled (dependind to the monitors placement...)

Quote:
The cabinets are too low to hear properly while sitting at a desk for one thing. And I could not imagine using them in a smallish room without bypassing the internal crossovers and wiring up my own external tri-amp setup, and that is what I did. Otherwise they are all scream, no bass, unless driven to 105+ dB. Not for the faint of heart.
No one said I ll no heighten them ;-)

The Klipschorn are designed with bi-amp capability... So I ll use it...

Ben
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Klipsch Corner Horns are so efficient that you hear all kinds of bad amplifier artifacts that regular 87dB/1W-1M loudspeakers don't reproduce.

A class-A solid state or tube amp that makes 10-15W will be sufficient for most people to fill a big room, but the price will be high to get quiet power supplies and troubleshoot other little noises.

The passive crossover used in the LaScala are about the same as Khorn and are pretty nice/effortless sounding. Efficient speakers are good.

Douglas Self has a design for a dual-mode Class-A and Class-B power amp that has a kit available. The books is a good read, too.

http://www.amazon.ca/Audio-Power-Amp...toc/0750680725

Karl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faispastonben View Post
Why? They sound very detailled... A really large frequency range... quality in tone in the low register... better sounding than my BM15A...and a low price compared to a air20 with sub... ,-)

No one said I ll no heighten them ;-)

The Klipschorn are designed with bi-amp capability... So I ll use it...
As I said, if they work for you for mixing then that should do it. I only know that my experience with compression horns for accurate mixing is not good, whether Klipsch, JBL, EV, etc.

Raising them would be necessary for sure. I did not realize the corner horns were biamp capable, the La Scala are not so my mistake. I went further than that though and rebalanced all the elements with separate amps, choke coils, and L-pads so I could enjoy them at reasonable volume levels.

As for amps, I continue to recommend Bel Canto. They are accurate and agile, at all power levels. Just be sure to calibrate your controller trims to get proper travel and resolution from your level controller.

Steve
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Klipschorns utilize the walls of the room to complete the sides of the horns...and take a good deal of space to develop the wave correctly.
They are not studio monitors......might be fun...but not adequate.
They used dreadful hf components (EV 1823/T35) as well
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In the worst case, they will complete my NS10m, and BM15A...
That will not be worst in my situation!!!

I install them tomorow in my control room... so I ll tell you how they sound in the this place...

Quote:
They used dreadful hf components (EV 1823/T35) as well
What do you mean?

Ben
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Quote:
Originally Posted by perun View Post
Faispastonben, how much did they cost? Klipschs... I'm curious...

Check this out... KORATO's beautiful amps... Good choice for your Klipschs...

http://www.korato.com/series.php?id=22
Year --> 1996
3500€
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faispastonben View Post
Year --> 1996
3500€
What's the usual 2nd hand price for em?

Cheers...
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Those are great speakers. Most older designs don't compete today, but those truly do.

They're making them again, by the way.

http://www.klipsch.com/products/deta...lipschorn.aspx

I remember going with my dad to hang out with PWK when I was a kid. Those guys would discuss crap like crossovers for hours. I just wanted to get back to Hot Wheels.

I know Klipsch was always saying "What this country needs is a good five watt amp" but K-horns do benefit from a good amount of power.
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I don't know... depends of age and localisation = 175 lbs unboxed!!!
Best New pair price =14000€ !!!
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i am a huge Klipsch fan and have been for years and years and years!
i am also a big EV fan!
for just listening i love big horns and big efficient drivers.
some mc, mono blocks and it all heaven for me.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pan60 View Post
i am a huge Klipsch fan and have been for years and years and years!
i am also a big EV fan!
for just listening i love big horns and big efficient drivers.
some mc, mono blocks and it all heaven for me.
Just listening or work with? and why...?
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space....the final frontier

Quote:
Originally Posted by MIKEHARRIS View Post
Klipschorns utilize the walls of the room to complete the sides of the horns...and take a good deal of space to develop the wave correctly.
They are not studio monitors......might be fun...but not adequate.
They used dreadful hf components (EV 1823/T35) as well
Mike is on to something here: to get the most out of K-Horns, you need a big rectangular high-ceiling room with no other purpose (except a big screen and seating) so that the sound can be optimized. In a theater, ALTEC sectoral horn might be more appropriate for vintage mid/HF. Control room use is going to be less-than-optimal.

When Klipsch & Associates first made these available as a commercial product, 50W was a big/powerful/expensive amplifier, so the effiency of horn-loading allowed "realistic levels of reproduction, even of a full orchestra". More common were <20W tube amplifiers that were pushed to the edge (and past) audible distortion with less efficient loudspeakers, so horn-loading dramatically reduced distortion at peak output.

Another advantage of high-efficiency design is that for reasonable SPL, very little power is dissipated in the voice coils. The voice coils don't heat up, causing peak compression. Horn-loaded drivers also need very little excursion capability, compared to conventional boxes, contributing to low driver distortion.

These speakers have fans (esp. among low-power tube folks). If you got a good deal, you won't lose your investment no matter what route you choose.

Karl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faispastonben View Post
Just listening or work with? and why...?
i like listening, i just never got the same since of dimension from smaller speakers and solid state amps.
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I Received my klipsh.. and I try them with a few amps:
Bel Canto--> A very good and accurate low register but a too dark high frequency...
Rotel--> Beurk!!! too harsh; a lack of low register
Quad --> I do not speak about it....
Crown --> not better!!!
Bryston--> I did not test any because I did not find any to test!!! The price is bel canto price...
REGA-MIRA--> My choice: 2*2amp... a very musicality stuff, very accurate,... a light lack of firmness in the low registers but the price is not the same than the Bel Canto (>3000€) 2*new REGA =1700€ (a very good price)...

I tried 1 REGA with 1 Bel Canto = no comment maybe when I would earn more money

Ben
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FWIW... i knew paul(kinda) and he was a great man in our industry his contribution was emence considering the state at the time... but there's no way in hell i would use those speakers for monitors... k(orner)horns for monitors is ridiculous... keep em if ya like them... use them for your home theatre... BTW those aren't EV drivers... and i think i still have a pair of the midranges around here somewher if ya want them...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dementedchord View Post
BTW those aren't EV drivers... and i think i still have a pair of the midranges around here somewher if ya want them...
So, you know the k-horn sound... What the different is between your EV and the K-horn drivers? What references?

If I change them would you try to mix something with them, or do you prefer to go hell with my BM15a...? and so, why? (On the other hand, food is perfect here )

I can say to you that since I changed monitors I have a sound... I have less holes in the spectrum... Stéréo image is realy accurate... low register is just...

I don't say that is perfect... but the principle which consists in being of zone of pressure (for the low register) goes well with my small room...

I would try to modify them to make them perfect...
Give me the formula!!!

Ben
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I use some 58 khorn with stock drivers to check my mixes on they are set up in the next room to the control room.
But them again I have a set of 51 khorns at home so i like to make my mixes sound good on them.
Lascala use the same xover as the khorn.
I power of my khorns with a Threshold s150 amps about 80 watts
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I love Klipsch
the Corner Horn, Belle, LaScalla, Cornwall and the little Heresy
but not everyone's choice as these are horn loaded and brash and in your face

I use them, always, on large amps even though there were originally designed for low power tube amps

it's all about efficiency and headroom
there was a time when Klipsch would quote efficiencies at 4 feet and not 1 metre

Mosfet and 200W+
old Perreaux and ZPE
and sometimes some old Rotel units


yes EV drivers have been used ... these items have been around for a long time and parts have changed a little and people in other countries have had substitutes
you can spend weeks researching this in the Klipsch user groups and fan clubs
and so too for the various cross-over Mod ideas

yes some people use two amps per speaker ( Bi-Amp )
but again an idea born of the past when 20W was powerful
some use the passive crossovers and some use active
the original idea was to reduce the TIM (Transient Intermodulation Distortion) especially in the Mid and Top section ... an overlay of the bass on the top end due to inadequacies in the amp when near clipping and the inductance issues with these very efficient speakers
( bass clipping and powersupply sag due to bass content )

Low damping factor of modern amps and the available headroom take 99% of this out of the equation

a friend has LaScalla with a Yamaha 400 W (yes 400 Watt)
see the Klipsch spec - 100 w max continuous (400 w peak)
I say again ... headroom
and a pair of my DIY 15 inch sub woofers with one of my active (filter/power amp)systems to drive the two sub woofers
....

Heresy in the rear
Sony Projector


Now that is a home theatre experience


the Sony, Klipsch experience ... there is no substitute
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i was thinking of getting some older KG2's to set up here in the future maybe not sure.
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as to specific differences between the driversin the khorns when i was selling them (80's) and the ev's ive used 1824M's cant say sonicly... just know they appear diff and require a diff kit for rebuilding.... my problem with them in general comes down to .... in order to provide effeciency... ( a big problem at the time of conception)... linearity and imaging were sacrificed... and i dont think i'm alone in thinking this... i have never seen a pair used in a studio.... must be a reason... again they can be fun though... in a retai demo room we had a pair hooked to mac amps with a big projection /laserdisc system.... put in top gun and people would duck when the planes came overhead.....
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dementedchord View Post
... linearity and imaging were sacrificed... and i dont think i'm alone in thinking this... i have never seen a pair used in a studio....
I have seen a picture of three Belles used in a control room but it could have been a Klipsch propaganda photo

I have used a pair of Heresy and LaScallas for tracking and feel the linearity is good compared to others when excessive headroom is required
Bum Flare JBL and Urei is also good here and they all share high efficiency specs

but for mix down
non of the above are great as the stereo imagery and frequency flatness is not their strong points

but
yes
heaps of fun


for those that are too young ... don't laugh
the laserdisc was all we had at the time outside of Beta and VHS
sometimes I feel that some of the laserdisc preparations were better than the heavily squished DVDs or today
but my memory could be sugar coating it
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