Do It Yourself SUMMING BOXES

[AMIEL]

I was wondering that maybe many of you guys made their own summing boxes!

I would love to see pics, know components, ideas , design and features, also will be very helpful to know from where did you buy the chassis, parts components etc.
Also would be interesting to know how you Summing box sounds ans if you compared it with others.

Can you place here some web links with good info about DIY Summing boxes?

Thanks!!

[Hulk]

Here's a lot of info!

Here's a good place to start reading

[nathanvacha]

search.

i recall a thread a few months ago titled something like "my diy summer"...

really detailed... and a really kick-ass color of orange.

[AMIEL]

Nathan I guess is that thread?
******//gearslutz.com/board/showthrea...026#post958026

[Andrew Kinsey]

******//oxygene.dynip.com:8080/jules/Jules-Summing-1.jpg

******//oxygene.dynip.com:8080/jules/Jules-Summing-3.jpg

******//oxygene.dynip.com:8080/jules/Jules-Summing-4.jpg

[gyraf]

******//www.gyraf.dk/tmp/G16.jpg

Fully tube-based, integral optical stereo comp, monitoring outputs..

Jakob E.

[chrissugar]

A simple passive one, with hardwired stereo and mono ins, selectable summing impedance with an external resistor inside an XLR (the two orange XLRs):
******//img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...AB-PMXB1-3.jpg
******//img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...AB-PMXB1-7.jpg
******//img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...AB-PMXB1-5.jpg

A complicated one, with faders on all channels, L-C-R panorama, transformer based Neve make up gain electronics, K system (Bob Katz) calibrated monitoring system, relay based input selection:
******//img.photobucket.com/albums/v2.../MIXBUSS-3.jpg
******//img.photobucket.com/albums/v2.../MIXBUSS-2.jpg

chrissugar

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by AMIEL

I was wondering that maybe many of you guys made their own summing boxes!

I normally wouldn't make a comment like I'm about to, but this is the Geekslutz forum where science has to come before fashion.

Of all the things to spend time and money on, an outboard summing box seems way, WAY down the list in importance. If you're mixing in the box, continuing to do so has numerous advantages. Versus the hassle to route things out and back in again for no reason other than what's really just a fashion statement. If you're mixing with a regular mixer, then using that mixer will surely give better results than a separate summing box you could cobble together yourself.

For all I know you might be an excellent electronics engineer who knows how to design high quality amplifier circuits having good transient response and low distortion and low noise. But if you're asking for advice I'll guess you are not an electronics engineer.

Please do not take this as a personal attack, because that's not my intent. But I really hate seeing people waste a bunch of money and effort for no reason.

--Ethan

[AMIEL]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

I normally wouldn't make a comment like I'm about to, but this is the Geekslutz forum where science has to come before fashion.

Of all the things to spend time and money on, an outboard summing box seems way, WAY down the list in importance. If you're mixing in the box, continuing to do so has numerous advantages. Versus the hassle to route things out and back in again for no reason other than what's really just a fashion statement. If you're mixing with a regular mixer, then using that mixer will surely give better results than a separate summing box you could cobble together yourself.

For all I know you might be an excellent electronics engineer who knows how to design high quality amplifier circuits having good transient response and low distortion and low noise. But if you're asking for advice I'll guess you are not an electronics engineer.

Please do not take this as a personal attack, because that's not my intent. But I really hate seeing people waste a bunch of money and effort for no reason.

--Ethan

Ok Ethan!! I want to know the perspective of your statement as you said ..in a cientific point of view..and is not personal as you said...but:
Do you really think summing boxes are a waste? but why?
based on what? I would like your cientific opinion.

I have my doubts also about summing boxes because I think the transformer if what gives you that sound.... But if you want to use outboard gear in specific instruments or channels I think then a summing box is very handy...you can insert your outboard gear without any delay..because all the mix is going thru the summing box.....beside of that you also can get the sound of the transformers of the stereo buss of the summing box , have monitor control etc...and are some boxes that have total recall too......

Now I have a very good knowledge of electronics in certain areas but I would not build a summing box myself....only if I like the concept and is coming as a kit.....I am just interested to know what others are doing...just to learn about the signal path and components and how others do it, all of that is is very interesting for myself....so your assumptions were wrong... no because somebody ask for info means is looking for advise....but I really appreciate your concern about something you believe is a waste for us.
Thanks!

[funka]

FYI, I described my design(inspired by a lot of readings around forums...) in that post:
******//www.gearslutz.com/board/geeks...ing-mixer.html

[The Spark]

DIY summing box = a crapload of Y cables?

[Ethan Winer]

Reuven,

Originally Posted by AMIEL

Do you really think summing boxes are a waste? but why? based on what? I would like your cientific opinion.

Yes, I think they're mostly a waste. Why? Because they address a problem that doesn't exist. Unless your mixer (or DAW) is truly lame, which is rare these days, the noise and distortion and frequency response - which are ALL that matter - are already plenty adequate.

I have my doubts also about summing boxes because I think the transformer if what gives you that sound.

What sound?

See my point? If you want to add a little grit to dirty up a track or add color, that's fine. But there are MUCH easier ways to do this. For example, TapeSim plug-ins and intelligent use of EQ and compression, which is what I use.

Now, if you truly do need to sum external gear, then in that case a passive box or a basic active mixer can be useful. Personally, I switched to working entirely in the box many years ago (mid 1990s), and I never looked back.

More editorializing:

All the time I see posts by people who are unhappy with the quality of their productions. All the time they ask what "gear" they should buy to get higher quality or better sound. The answer is almost never gear unless, again, what you have now really does suck. Rather, the answer is technique, and understanding how to use the gear we already have, and - most important of all - having excellent monitoring in an excellent treated room.

--Ethan

[AMIEL]

Originally Posted by funka

FYI, I described my design(inspired by a lot of readings around forums...) in that post:
******//www.gearslutz.com/board/geeks...ing-mixer.html

Hey Funka...did you A/B the mix going thru your passive summing box with the preamp for makeup gain and just taking the stereo mix from the audio interface to the preamp used for make up gain?
That would be a very interesting test and comparison.
which stereo preamps are you using?

[Stitch333]

Originally Posted by AMIEL

Can you place here some web links with good info about DIY Summing boxes?

Thanks!!

Heres two places to start

[AMIEL]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

Reuven,



Yes, I think they're mostly a waste. Why? Because they address a problem that doesn't exist. Unless your mixer (or DAW) is truly lame, which is rare these days, the noise and distortion and frequency response - which are ALL that matter - are already plenty adequate.



What sound?

See my point? If you want to add a little grit to dirty up a track or add color, that's fine. But there are MUCH easier ways to do this. For example, TapeSim plug-ins and intelligent use of EQ and compression, which is what I use.

Now, if you truly do need to sum external gear, then in that case a passive box or a basic active mixer can be useful. Personally, I switched to working entirely in the box many years ago (mid 1990s), and I never looked back.

More editorializing:

All the time I see posts by people who are unhappy with the quality of their productions. All the time they ask what "gear" they should buy to get higher quality or better sound. The answer is almost never gear unless, again, what you have now really does suck. Rather, the answer is technique, and understanding how to use the gear we already have, and - most important of all - having excellent monitoring in an excellent treated room.

--Ethan

Well I think excelent monitoring and acoustics are the best tools for a better mix ....but we are talking just about the souind of the mixes....I also belive there is nothing wrong o any problem ITB that is being addresed by summing boxes....I think you are defending something you like as others do the same....I think if you believe hardware gear is a waste during mixing because you can have the same tools in Plug ins...well you may have to try to convince to so many people here that prefer outboard gear during mixing over certain plug ins......specially compressors ...examples of great engineers :Michael Brauer, Russell Elevado( that actually he just love and uses Tape)...... anyway people are using mic preamps , passive summing boxes, active mixers etc....not to "do the mix for you"...just to get a different vibe...a bad mix ITB o thru an SSL still a bad mix......so what you are saying about the answer is "Mixing technique" don't have anything to do with using a summig box o mixing ITB...that is a different subject!! nobody of this guys is asking for how to compress a vocal o how to get that great drum sounf when you want a new gear in this case summing boxes.
Also as you said everything ITB is adecuate ....but many are looking for certain sound that they find more desirable o better using certain outboard gear...that is the reason why many plug in manufacturers are doing that "analog emulations".

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

More editorializing:

All the time I see posts by people who are unhappy with the quality of their productions. All the time they ask what "gear" they should buy to get higher quality or better sound. The answer is almost never gear unless, again, what you have now really does suck. Rather, the answer is technique, and understanding how to use the gear we already have, and - most important of all - having excellent monitoring in an excellent treated room.

--Ethan

Well I saw here many great engineers that still ask for different new gear for "better sound" I would not say they need "a better mixing technique" people always want something new and different and if it sounds better awesome!! that is the nature of human being and Gearslutz!! when I had the pleasure to meet Dave Pensado he asked me fso many questions about new outboard gear and new plug ins...I think that is great....he wants to have better and newer gear always.

[funka]

Hey Funka...did you A/B the mix going thru your passive summing box with the preamp for makeup gain and just taking the stereo mix from the audio interface to the preamp used for make up gain?
That would be a very interesting test and comparison.
which stereo preamps are you using?

No, I just have finished it...and was still on testing things to check everything was ok...
I think I will use a DRS-2.
How can I put the stereo mix in my preamp without attenuating the mix (with the same attenuation that the summing box "add") before it goes in mic ins?
I should attenuate of around 43db to do so, digitally(it will cause the 24 bit mix becoming a near 16 bit mix...).
Anyway, I will try it when I have time, why not?

But for me, it is not DAW vs analog summing, it is just that I want to use outboard while mixing, and try to reduce A/D conversion for that purpose(no DAW inserts so), and I just think a summing box is a good mean to achieve that(hoping the quality is still there, of course...).
I am not searching "a sound" when summing externally(but, if I can, using different make-up gain preamp, why not...it can be fun), it is mainly for ergonomics and easy use of outboard during the mix.

[AMIEL]

Originally Posted by funka

No, I just have finished it...and was still on testing things to check everything was ok...
I think I will use a DRS-2.
How can I put the stereo mix in my preamp without attenuating the mix (with the same attenuation that the summing box "add") before it goes in mic ins?
I should attenuate of around 43db to do so, digitally(it will cause the 24 bit mix becoming a near 16 bit mix...).
Anyway, I will try it when I have time, why not?

But for me, it is not DAW vs analog summing, it is just that I want to use outboard while mixing, and try to reduce A/D conversion for that purpose(no DAW inserts so), and I just think a summing box is a good mean to achieve that(hoping the quality is still there, of course...).
I am not searching "a sound" when summing externally(but, if I can, using different make-up gain preamp, why not...it can be fun), it is mainly for ergonomics and easy use of outboard during the mix.

Well some mic pres have line in..otherwise you can use the ATTY .....but I hear you I do belive if you want to use outboard gear during mixig a summing box is a simple effective and compact solution.