UPS - Should I, shouldn't I ? Why ?

[starseed]

This was posted in one of the other forums, than I realised you folks are probably the wisest to this type of inquiry.

Story goes:

I just picked up a Compaq UPS.

I remembered that someone said not to plug an amp into one, since this would limit the amps ability to output fully during loud passages. This one puts out 1600W into 10A, seems like it would be enough... even for driving amps and speakers. anyone care to elaborate?

So, my question is pretty general: What in my studio should be plugged into this UPS ? Computer only?

I am building a small mastering room, the house is from the 1800's and the electricity leaves a lot to be desired.

There have been a couple of power failures this year.

(There are spikes coming from a fridge, of course a total no-no in any studio, but still, it IS an issue) Maybe it, alone, should be on the UPS ?

For a couple of thousand $ I can have a new power line installed, but I'm hopeful (perhaps just stupid) that this UPS may to some degree help me in my quest for clean, silent power.

Anyone have expertise on issues like this?

I have a beep from one of my screens that needs sorting out too, seems like a phase issue of some sort. The computer is in a separate room, do the screens need to be powered from the same outlet, perhaps that would solve it?

stike Any wisdom on the subject? stike

Thanks

[ulysses]

You have to be realistic about what you can expect from a UPS, especially a consumer product from Compaq. I think it's totally unrealistic to think you'll keep recording a keeper if you have a power outage during a take. Even if you manage to keep all of your gear powered up by the UPS, there's sure to be a noise, or a loss in musician concentration, or something. So forget about salvaging the take in progress. What you don't want to do is lose the last seven takes you have on the computer or whatever. So you need to keep the digital gear powered up - everything that will prevent a crash, let you save your work, and shut down the computer while you wait for the power to come back on. This may include the screen, if you need it to navigate the save/shutdown process. But if it's a CRT, it'll cut into your backup time.
As for expecting a UPS to somehow clean up your power line - think again. First of all, most UPS devices don't do anything at all until the power outage occurs - they pass the mains power straight through from the wall, and in the event of an outage they quickly switch over. There are some "always online" UPS systems out there, but they're less common and more expensive. Secondly, the power put out by a UPS when it is active is usually nothing like the (mostly) clean pure sinewave coming out of the wall - it's a reasonable approximation of a sine wave, just clean enough to keep the switching supplies in your computer devices happy. Those things mostly don't care what the power line looks like. So running your analog gear off of this nasty power is going to be a bad idea. Once again, there are specialized products out there that put out a "true sine wave" mains voltage, but just how "true" it is I can't say. In any case, these are esoteric devices that will cost a whole lot more than your typical compusa UPS that isn't worth putting new batteries into.
To get the refrigerator noise off the studio mains, you can install a line filter at the refrigerator. This is more cost effective than installing them all over the studio. But if any particular gear is still susceptible to fridge noise, then install line filters as necessary in the studio. There's something to be said for running your whole control room off of a single circuit, through a single power conditioner.
If one of your computer monitors is dumping squeally noises into your audio gear, you might try a line filter on the monitor, or plug it into a separate outlet. If that doesn't help, the noise may be airborne as opposed to noise on the power line. Changing the location of the monitor will be your best bet (like take it to the Salvation Army, for example).

[starseed]

Thanks, useful input, if a bit disheartening.

I appreciate you taking the time to educate me on the matter.

The line filter I tried (from Supra) did nothing. And I mean nothing...at all to clean up noise in the electricity...which is surprising, as that is what is claims to do.

Anyone have a solution?

A really good line filter brand, perhaps?

As for using the UPS...any other perspectives?

This isn't a consumer UPS. It was part of a computer network in an office and weights about 30 kg's.

Perhaps a line filter on its' output?

I dunno, maybe I'm just being stubborn...I just would rather spend the money on sweet gear... instead of paying those lame electricians come here again and tell me about their standard proceedures all over again.

If I could at least get an audiofile electrician do the job...but the landlord works with a specific company only. fuuck

They want 2000$ for the job, no guarantees. tutt

[Cojo]

Hi Jeremy.

I had high pitched monitor noise when having my laptop on the same power line as my soundcard. It all went away when I changed power line for my computer.

With that said you can't be sure there's not gonna be something else that is going to disturb your signal. Do you really only have one power line at your place?

/Cojo

[starseed]

Originally Posted by Cojo

I had high pitched monitor noise when having my laptop on the same power line as my soundcard. It all went away when I changed power line for my computer.

/Cojo

Well, in that case I'm all out of luck, since my soundcard is "bus powered" via PCI.

I just tried hooking monitors up to same outlet as computer. No dif.

Time to go hardware seq. everything live....(to tape, preferably)

The UPS, Conny, useful at all, you think ?

[Cojo]

Originally Posted by starseed

The UPS, Conny, useful at all, you think ?

I don't know so much about UPS but I once was looking around at the net and to my suprise alot of them only distributed square waves! Not good for audio in other words.

Take care!

/Cojo

[starseed]

Originally Posted by Cojo

I don't know so much about UPS but I once was looking around at the net and to my suprise alot of them only distributed square waves!
/Cojo

Ouch!

I see a huge gap in thew market here. Considering how bad electricity is in the states, (you have to see it for yourself) seems the current stabiliser/filter/power conditioner market needs to make some progress.

I wish my acoustics guy could have tested the electricity too, but, who you gonna call, ghost busters?

[mixerguy]

I own a couple of these devices.

I bought them from Provantage

the CyberPower AVR ones are great.... and great "bang for the buck"

http://www.provantage.com/avr-series-ups~22070022.htm

... batery backup, voltage regulation (keeps the voltage in a safe range) and surge protection.

I just bought a 1500 AVR - for about $150 delivered......

[David Kulka]

Originally Posted by Cojo

I don't know so much about UPS but I once was looking around at the net and to my suprise alot of them only distributed square waves! Not good for audio in other words.

Take care!

/Cojo

That's very surprising -- seems like it would be rough on power transformers, and might be in violation of FCC rules or codes. Are you sure? Can you give any examples?

[Cojo]

Originally Posted by David Kulka

That's very surprising -- seems like it would be rough on power transformers, and might be in violation of FCC rules or codes. Are you sure? Can you give any examples?

I'm trying to remember where I saw them but it was a long time ago...

I'm sure it was probably some cheap ones. But I would be sure to check the specs before I did any purchase.

/Cojo

[Geoff_T]

Originally Posted by Cojo

I'm trying to remember where I saw them but it was a long time ago...

I'm sure it was probably some cheap ones. But I would be sure to check the specs before I did any purchase.

/Cojo

Hi

It's easy to make a square wave inverter because the transistors are either on or off so they don't have to dissipate the max to min, max to min of a sine wave. Lots of stuff will run on square waves like motors and even switch mode power supplies.... but it's not kind to regular transformers and would be totally unsuitable for audio.

I suspect that the cheap inverters you see for running drills etc off 12v work that way.

Can't speak for UPS's though... what I know about differences between brands I could write on a postage stamp (in foot high letters)!

[John Suitcase]

I've read that as well. In fact, most of the UPS systems that say "modified square wave" are really pretty close to a square wave. Apparently it's cheaper to manufacture these than true sine wave systems. The problem is that a square wave is stressful on equipment, and I believe using audio equipment like amplifiers is stressful on the UPS, as well.

Even the Furman UPS uses a square wave:

http://www.furmansound.com/products/pro/ups/sb_1000.php

But you'll notice that they only advise using it for Computers, Monitors, CD-R Recorders, etc.

I'd pay the $200, but get a guarantee from the guy that it'll solve the problem.

And I would get the fridge out of there. It has a compressor, which if the contacts are sparking a little bit, could cause all sort of weird interference.

[starseed]

Originally Posted by Geoff_T

Hi
... what I know about differences between brands I could write on a postage stamp (in foot high letters)!

Funny

You got some nice looking gear on your website. Crafty fella.

Respect.

[Geoff_T]

Originally Posted by John Suitcase

I've read that as well. In fact, most of the UPS systems that say "modified square wave" are really pretty close to a square wave. Apparently it's cheaper to manufacture these than true sine wave systems. The problem is that a square wave is stressful on equipment, and I believe using audio equipment like amplifiers is stressful on the UPS, as well.

Even the Furman UPS uses a square wave:

http://www.furmansound.com/products/pro/ups/sb_1000.php

But you'll notice that they only advise using it for Computers, Monitors, CD-R Recorders, etc.

I'd pay the $200, but get a guarantee from the guy that it'll solve the problem.

And I would get the fridge out of there. It has a compressor, which if the contacts are sparking a little bit, could cause all sort of weird interference.

Hi

Yes, I see it says 2 step square wave so that would look a teeny bit (if you were inebriated and squinted) like a sinewave. I expect it works a bit like those class H amplifiers where one transistor handles the longer but smaller square, and another turns on briefly at the higher voltage but shorter duration.

Mind you, both the transistors are either on or they're off so they run fairly cool.

Years ago I made an inverter for an old friend who was a WW1 vet and had been a victim of mustard gas. All his life he used a nebuliser to lubricate his burnt lungs but the village he lived in had shaky power, especially in winter. So I knocked up a simple inverter that used a two transistor multi-vibrator square wave oscillator to drive intermediate transistors that drove the output devices that switched the step up transformer.

We kept a fully charged car battery nearby that could power the inverter and nebuliser electric motor for hours if needed.

He lived close to Neve and had a street named after him in the village = Hale Close.

A lovely old man, rest his soul.

[starseed]

Originally Posted by John Suitcase

I'd pay the $200, but get a guarantee from the guy that it'll solve the problem.

Mis-typed. Price is 2 grand.

If it was 200$ I'd have had them in before I started building, just for good measure.

As it was, it dawned on me during construction that I would have to splash out on a refurb of the electricity. As it is I am looking for ways to get up and running asap.

It is clear though, that this UPS I have will sit next to my computer protecting it from harmful spikes, and letting me do saves in case of any power outs. Just need to get a few cables.

Thanks everyone for your input. Valuable knowledge, truly.

I have one other possible solution. I was offered to buy a big transformer from a local studio for about 500$. Supposed to be an old monster, beefy enough to supply steady current for my whole setup, or so he says.

Whaddya think about that option?

Personally, though I'd love to learn more, I'd feel safer making curtains, like the one's in Mr. Katz's studio , than doing much of anything with electricity.

So, glad to have the slutboard at my fingertipz.

Love

[Geoff_T]

Originally Posted by starseed

Mis-typed. Price is 2 grand.

If it was 200$ I'd have had them in before I started building, just for good measure.

As it was, it dawned on me during construction that I would have to splash out on a refurb of the electricity. As it is I am looking for ways to get up and running asap.

It is clear though, that this UPS I have will sit next to my computer protecting it from harmful spikes, and letting me do saves in case of any power outs. Just need to get a few cables.

Thanks everyone for your input. Valuable knowledge, truly.

I have one other possible solution. I was offered to buy a big transformer from a local studio for about 500$. Supposed to be an old monster, beefy enough to supply steady current for my whole setup, or so he says.

Whaddya think about that option?

Personally, though I'd love to learn more, I'd feel safer making curtains, like the one's in Mr. Katz's studio , than doing much of anything with electricity.

So, glad to have the slutboard at my fingertipz.

Love

Hi

"It is clear though, that this UPS I have will sit next to my computer protecting it from harmful spikes"

The thought crossed my mind that anything that drives squares waves into an inductive load may not be the best thing to protect you from spikes! Just a wi****l ponderance...

"I have one other possible solution. I was offered to buy a big transformer from a local studio for about 500$. Supposed to be an old monster, beefy enough to supply steady current for my whole setup, or so he says."

Ah, but this is a different process as the transformer would provide balanced power and not back up protection in case of a power failure.

In my mind, I can see how balanced power might help with something like an ancient and ungrounded guitar amp, but spikes (if they are a problem) have a lot of energy in them... they go from nothing to something and back to nothing in a staggering short time... and this energy can permeate through the transformers and regulators in a console power supply (or maybe airborne) and still appear in the console noise floor until the cause of the spike is removed.

I'm not sure that a balancing transformer can fix spikes but it could fix ground issues at the other end of the spectrum.

[ulysses]

The fact that the line filter didn't help at all is a pretty good indication that the noise problem isn't coming in on the power line. It could be ground noise, or it could be airborne. My money's on the latter. What happens when you move the monitor around? Does the noise change? I bet it does. The failure of the line filter to reduce this noise can't be blamed on the line filter if the noise you're trying to filter isn't line noise.

[starseed]

Originally Posted by ulysses

The fact that the line filter didn't help at all is a pretty good indication that the noise problem isn't coming in on the power line. It could be ground noise, or it could be airborne. My money's on the latter. What happens when you move the monitor around? Does the noise change? I bet it does. The failure of the line filter to reduce this noise can't be blamed on the line filter if the noise you're trying to filter isn't line noise.

Oh dear, may I ask what, if anything, can be done about these charged particles that are inhabiting my studio ?

This is a little over my head so I have decided to tackle it with humor and in good spirits. Perhaps a little tomfoolery later, this will be the mastering room I intended.

I have added a Folcrom to my short-list. It even goes with my interior deco

Thanks for delving into my thread enough to catch subtleties like the one you spotted.

Jeremy

[Geoff_T]

Originally Posted by starseed

Oh dear, may I ask what, if anything, can be done about these charged particles that are inhabiting my studio ?

This is a little over my head so I have decided to tackle it with humor and in good spirits. Perhaps a little tomfoolery later, this will be the mastering room I intended.

I have added a Folcrom to my short-list. It even goes with my interior deco

Thanks for delving into my thread enough to catch subtleties like the one you spotted.

Jeremy

Hi

I've not been following this thread closely so I'll try to answer the one question...

Oh dear, may I ask what, if anything, can be done about these charged particles that are inhabiting my studio ?

Answer = by trying to eliminate the source.

1. Electronic light dimmers... if you have them, get rid of them.
2. Are you near any sort of industrial workplace like a car repair guy, or is one of your neighbours a radio ham or similar suspect hobby?
3. Do your power sockets have a ground on them?
4. Are you using any ground lift adaptors? Stop it at once if you are.
5. How far are you from the transformer that feeds your property? How good do you think the ground connection to neutral is there? All crusty and horrid?

These are just things to consider for starters...

[KingDaddyO]

Just a quick note regarding the UPS -- the primary use for a UPS is to provide a very brief additional period of time after the mains power has dropped out, so that any sensitive systems can be powered down graciously.

There may be larger commercial UPS units available that might allow one to run several devices longer than 'a brief time', but that type of situation would almost always be better served by using a generator system instead.

[David Kulka]

Generator system seems a little extreme. I like Geoff's answer. "Fix it at the source."

I'm not so sure a UPS is really the answer in OP's case but one further comment about them. Most UPS's do little or nothing until a power failure occurs. The rest of the time you get plain old line current.

Some more expensive UPS's are always on but these models are more expensive because they are always "working hard" and must have much more robust construction.

UPS's are not line filters.

[ulysses]

Originally Posted by starseed

Oh dear, may I ask what, if anything, can be done about these charged particles that are inhabiting my studio ?

It's not terribly complicated. From what you've told us so far, it sounds like your biggest problem is noise that seems to be related to your flat-panel computer monitor. Is that right? Do you have other noise issues too?

One potential cause of the monitor noise could be that the various switching power supplies (such as the main power supply for the unit, which is probably a wall wart or "line lump" but could also be the high-voltage inverter that powers the cold-cathode backlight inside the screen) could be emitting noise that is being received by some other piece of gear in your studio. It's like you have a little radio station in your control room. The elegant solution is supposed to be that your various pieces of audio gear are not boomboxes, and they should not pick up radio. But the particular emission in question is probably at a much lower frequency, and is in much closer proximity, than radio stations are supposed to be, so maybe we can cut the audio gear some slack. So the next elegant solution is to interrupt the broadcast. Replacing the monitor would be one possible solution (but don't spend money on that until you're sure). Another might be to have it repaired - it isn't supposed to do that, and technically it's illegal. Surely your monitor has a little FCC notice on it someplace that claims it complies with regulations requiring it to not interfere with other equipment. So if it's a new monitor or still under warranty, seek repair or replacement that way. It may also be that simply repositioning the monitor a few degrees of rotation or a few inches here or there might greatly reduce the noise you're hearing. It's just like with an electric guitar, how sometimes turning your body to the left makes the hum go away. In fact, it's the exact same mechanism - electromagnetic radiation travelling through the space (not technically the air) between two pieces of equipment.

But there is another kind of noise that sometimes seems like it's related to the computer monitor. I have seen many different computer systems that dump little squeally noises into the audio outputs that is dependent on what the mouse is doing. My old AudioMediaII systems did that if I tried to use the analog i/o, and some newer system was doing it just the other day (I think it was the MOTU rig, if I remember correctly). Anyway, that's a completely different problem that I don't have a solution to.

[starseed]

Originally Posted by ulysses

It's not terribly complicated. From what you've told us so far, it sounds like your biggest problem is noise that seems to be related to your flat-panel computer monitor. Is that right? Do you have other noise issues too?
.

Indeed. Two separate noises.

1. In the house, or neighborhood, known since long...guitar store had trouble getting clean amplification, in the 80's...

The house is in the CBD (next door neighbours are EMI Sweden, and several other music related companies. Nice. However, there's everything from trams to train stations, though none less than 50 meters away, and most likely on their own grid.

[starseed]

2. A beep, from one of my monitors. Probably an internal circuit. As the reply describes below. Shall have to try replacing it.

[QUOTE=ulysses;957091]
One potential cause of the monitor noise could be that the various switching power supplies (such as the main power supply for the unit, which is probably a wall wart or "line lump" but could also be the high-voltage inverter that powers the cold-cathode backlight inside the screen) could be emitting noise that is being received by some other piece of gear in your studio.

.... It's just like with an electric guitar, how sometimes turning your body to the left makes the hum go away. In fact, it's the exact same mechanism - electromagnetic radiation travelling through the space (not technically the air) between two pieces of equipment.
QUOTE]

No wall wart. Just a cable, 220V straight into the screens. Two feet from my head :D

As for all the people telling me that an uninterruptable power supply is an uninterruptable source of power...that kinda goes without saying.

If you have previous knowledge as to how to get rid of these signals that make long listening days less fun than they should be, this threads for you :D


Thanks for your input. Muchly appreciated.

Jeremy