4% silver solder all hype?

[mus1k_freak]

I've read alot of people using 4% silver solder to make there own cords with and what not, it costs like 10x the price of regualr solder and the guy at the electronics store says it really makes no difference just an engineers pipe dream, any body swear by it, or doesnt it really make a difference?

[Switchcraft]

I think if you are worrying about things like that then you are not using your time or money very wisely.

I would make sure that you shrink wrap everything, make sure you get both terminals very hot so that the metals bind not just stick and also make sure your solder terminals are bonded heavily but cleanly.

[rufus13]

Silver solder is harder and melts at a higher temp than tin/lead/antimony. Audiophile assertions of a "solder sound" strike me as BS (if the joint is made properly), but it does have a use in military/industrial/space app's. If you get 4% solder at the same cost or cheaper than 60-40, go ahead and use it.

The only place I have been where silver-bearing solder must be used is in the ceramic stand-offs of Tektronix oscilloscopes. My 545A tube oscilloscope has these and cost as much as a Portland house with a view new in 1960.

Cheers.

Karl

[struck27]

IMHO if you are just starting out soldering I would stick with 60/40. Silver solder is more difficult to work with so you'd probably end up with a cold joint and having a bad time.

[frugalpole]

Originally Posted by struck27

IMHO if you are just starting out soldering I would stick with 60/40. Silver solder is more difficult to work with so you'd probably end up with a cold joint and having a bad time.

i just did some soldering myself for the first time. i bought silver at the store... having kids in the house, etc. and i had quite a difficult time. i then went and purchased some lead solder --> and made quick work of it.

i bent a speak/spell.
it, is killer.

[mwd]

There is a difference in Silver Solder and Solder with a silver content.

If you ever use a quality silver content solder, like WBT, you'll never go to Radio Snack again. Melts like butter and extremely clean.

[Jim Williams]

Originally Posted by mus1k_freak

I've read alot of people using 4% silver solder to make there own cords with and what not, it costs like 10x the price of regualr solder and the guy at the electronics store says it really makes no difference just an engineers pipe dream, any body swear by it, or doesnt it really make a difference?

Maybe there's a reason this guy is working in an electronics store rather than doing anything in the audio industry.

WBT is very good, I use it for surface mount reflow because it melts so well. Yes, it sounds better, the newer RoHS solders are silver, copper and tin, try to make that stuff flow!

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[Phil Cibley]

Originally Posted by rufus13

The only place I have been where silver-bearing solder must be used is in the ceramic stand-offs of Tektronix oscilloscopes. My 545A has these.

About 15 years ago we had a bunch of Fostex headphones (model T-20 I believe)
that used silver solder instead of normal solder. A real pain to work with. I had to
crank up the iron temperature by about 100 degrees to get the stuff to melt properly. 63/37 or 60/40 works fine for everything I need to do.

[Minion]

I sometimes use a Silver Solder Paste that has small silver balls in it....

I only use it for soldering in places were it is hard to get at or with small SMT parts...
I just put small dab on the pins I need to solder or on the PCB and put the part into its place and apply a bit of heat and the Paste melts and then hardens... I believe the melting point of this paste is 220C and it works ok for what I use it for...

It isn"t that expensive ,well I guess it is compared to regular solder but it is about $5 for a 7g Tube....


Cheers

[brianroth]

A reasonably priced "compromise" is 63/37 solder. It melts at a somewhat lower temperature than 60/40, PLUS it it is "eutectic". That $10 word means that it "snaps" from a liquid to a solid within only a couple of degrees of temp, thus minimizing cold-solder joints.

Kester wire with 63/37 alloy is readily available, including from Mouser.

Bri

[85db]

Originally Posted by mwd

There is a difference in Silver Solder and Solder with a silver content.

If you ever use a quality silver content solder, like WBT, you'll never go to Radio Snack again. Melts like butter and extremely clean.

What is this "silver content solder" sold under? How would I know I'm buying the right thing (and not going back to the RadioShack)?

[Chris Nighman]

Jim - Were you serious when you said that it sounds better? Has there ever been anything published on that? Thanks in advance.

[Wavebourn]

Originally Posted by Chris Nighman

Jim - Were you serious when you said that it sounds better? Has there ever been anything published on that? Thanks in advance.

It depends on what to solder.

[ulysses]

There is one very good reason to use silver-bearing solder (2% to 4% silver, with tin and lead). If you solder onto silver-plated contacts (like the ones on those ceramic terminals in your Tektronix oscilloscope) using normal tin-lead solder, then the solder will leach the silver out of the contact point and ruin it. Silver-bearing solder doesn't do that. I've been told this also applies to gold contacts, but I don't actually know if that's true.
For years I bought the silver-bearing solder from Radio Shack as my go-to solder because I had no trouble working with it, and it's available on Sunday afternoon. Now I keep some of it around, but there are other solders I use most of the time. It is not eutectic, so it kind of "eases" from liquid to solid, which can cause problems if you're unable to hold the joint motionless as it cools. That's probably most likely with cable assemblies where you're always using your knees and elbows to keep the cable from falling on the floor while you solder. Interestingly, the tin/silver/copper solder I have around for repairing our lead-free assemblies is eutectic, and it really "snaps". It also turns dull grey when it solidifies, which is unnerving because it makes you think you messed up the solder joint. So you reflow it to make sure, and it does the same thing again. Kind of annoying until you get used to it.

[85db]

Can somebody tell me which solder is the best for gold Neutrik contacts: the lead-free 4% silver or tin/lead/4% silver?

[ulysses]

The lead-free solder is better in that it doesn't contain lead, which is poisonous. That's important in terms of the environment you're working in (exposing yourself to hazardous materials) and in terms of what you put in the landfill or wherever you dispose of your materials after they die. But the lead-based solder will be much easier for you to work with and get a reliable solder joint, so your cables don't crap out and end up in the trash.
And as long as you take care with your solder, clean up after yourself, and keep it away from children, there's not a real safety hazard with the lead. For example, don't solder at the kitchen table where your kids eat their breakfast. Long story short, probably use the lead-based solder. Unless you want to sell your work in Europe.

[nosebleedaudio]

FWIW, The only time I use Silver solder is for speaker terminals, is has less resistance.

[Chris Nighman]

What about ROHS compliance? I just have a hard time believing that the solder used changes the sound of a unit, which is why I asked if there has been any proof of this. I have just bever heard this before.

[ulysses]

No, of course not. It's simply a matter of reliability, solderability, availability, affordability, and environmental impact.
And as for RoHS compliance, that only applies to new products being sold. It's got nothing to do with existing gear or things you build, repair, or modify yourself.

[Jim Williams]

Originally Posted by Chris Nighman

Jim - Were you serious when you said that it sounds better? Has there ever been anything published on that? Thanks in advance.

A few solder joints won't make a big difference, but do an entire system like a console with it and yes, it sounds smoother and more detailed, just like what a silver cable can do. I've been using it since the 80's. There are many exotic solder formulas out there these days, some containing gold content as well. No, there are no published studies using any testing methods I've ever heard of as it's pretty hard to qualify quality of sound. Some high end test gear is made with it and it's used in some aerospace applications, there may be studies in that field but you can be assured that sound quality isn't part of them.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[Chris Nighman]

Cool, thanks for the responses. I'm pretty new here and some of these guys can be brutal. I appreciate the prfessional answers. You guys ROCK and this site has been so informative.

[DeadPoet]

Hi,

Reviving this thread because it's 1) got a lot of good soldering info 2) i have a question of my own...

I'm building a new place and will be redoing all of my soldering (going from crap cable and messy patching to Gotham and a nice new clean re-arranged patchbay)

I've found quite some different solders at a German internetstore ...could you guys help me out which one I should chose (or which shouldn't I surely NOT chose)?

In the 'contains lead' department there's
Sn60Pb38Cu2 (comes in a 'green' version as well - supposed to have less smoke, €13 for 500gr/1mm)
Sn40Pb
Sn62PbAg2 (€30 for 100gr/0,35mm !!!)

'lead-free':
Sn99Cu1 (€19 for 500gr/1mm)
Sn95,5Ag3,8Cu0,7 (€50 for 500gr/1mm)

I've soldered my previous patches (4U 144pt TT) and mobile 24ch recorder racks and cables so I'm starting to know my way around soldering...
The Leadfree solder with silver is expensive (i think ?) but I'm willing to spend that. On the other hand, the SN62PbAg2 seems a bit too expensive for me ...


Thanks,
Herwig

[nosebleedaudio]

The only time I use silver solder is for speaker connections, far less resistance.

[7 Hz]

I am using Multicore Sn-Pb-Ag LMP solder,0.71mm , RS Stock no. 551-671, it's eutectic and low melting point and has silver in it. Costs are £26.95 + vat for a 500 gram reel (way too much solder but it will last me forever). Soldering Gotham cable to Switchcraft plugs and M&M patchbay.

Doing fine with this solder, LMP means no burnt cable insulation, eutectic means it snaps from liquid to solid, silver means I don't worry about any supposed sound difference (maybe it is more durable as well? ). Non-ROHS means I don't worry about tin whiskers etc. It will be maybe 5 or 10 years before I would move to non-lead solder, lets see how things pan out.

[ulysses]

Originally Posted by DeadPoet

In the 'contains lead' department there's
Sn60Pb38Cu2 (comes in a 'green' version as well - supposed to have less smoke, €13 for 500gr/1mm)
Sn40Pb
Sn62PbAg2 (€30 for 100gr/0,35mm !!!)

'lead-free':
Sn99Cu1 (€19 for 500gr/1mm)
Sn95,5Ag3,8Cu0,7 (€50 for 500gr/1mm)

You've found yourself some pretty lousy prices there, I think (doing Euro/$ and gr/oz conversions in my head). I would shop around.
Personally, I would not choose the Sn99Cu1 formulation because I've found that tin/copper formulations are very difficult to solder with. The Sn95.5Ag3.8Cu0.7 formula is much better, it's what our assembly guy uses on our stuff and when I have to, I use it myself. It's still more difficult to hand-solder with than the lead-based stuff. I've never used the tin-lead-copper stuff, but tin-lead works just fine and tin-lead-silver is nicer but not necessarily necessary. So FIRST ask yourself whether or not it's important to YOU to go lead free. If it is, I recommend the tin-silver-copper. If you're okay with using lead, then just decide whether or not you want to splurge on the silver.

[85db]

People used to be in disbelief about cables changing the tone. People are only now catching up on the tonal differences of connectors and plugs. Most still can't believe the solder makes difference. It probably doesn't for a few connections but according to audiophiles it does when you rebuild a whole circuit.

My reasoning is that if you got this far, you might as well use silver content solder. It's just a bit more expensive but how much solder do you really need? So what if it costs extra $5.

Soldering a few cables wouldn't make a difference, but if we're talking about a large system like a console or a guitar rack in my case, pay attention to 1) cables, 2) plugs, and 3) solder -- in that order of priority. It will have a cumulative effect.

But again, if you invested in great cables, I don't think that you'll totally ruin your investment by using regular solder.

[ulysses]

The only time I use Silver solder is for speaker terminals, is has less resistance.

This is a good example of taking a small tidbit of knowledge and extrapolating beyond reason. Okay, so you know that silver is more conductive than lead or tin or even copper. So you think silver-bearing solder must be more conductive than regular solder. But is it? I doubt it. This stuff is only 2% silver, which isn't much. The reason it's in the solder is not to make the solder more conductive - that's got nothing to do with it. The reason silver-bearing solder exists is to prevent the solder from leaching silver from silver-plated contacts. It has other characteristics that can be positive or negative depending on the situation. But the conductivity of the solder has nothing to do with it. Besides, if your soldering skills are good you'll have direct contact between the conductors, rather than having gaps between them that are filled with lead, tin, and maybe a little silver.
But then again, silicon is only semi-conductive. Maybe we should mix in a small amount of silver. For that matter, a vacuum is a relatively poor conductor. Maybe we should fill up 2% of that empty space inside our tubes with silver.

[matthias]

a bit OT:


what's the best leadfree solder to work with?

is there anyone who tested some different brands and choose a favourite solder?


thanks...

[esaias]

I was recently at the local electronics shop and I was trying to buy decent solder and the the only information the salesperson was able to give me was "these ones has lead and these ones doesn't" and there were labels clearly stating the same info...
anyways, I ended up buying this Sn 95.5 / Ag 3.8 / Cu 0.7 solder, mainly because I was confused by incompetent salesperson and I though that the exensive stuff must be good :P

Anyways, I haven't tried this solder out yet, but according to what I've read from this thread this solder will be more difficult to solder because higer temp is needed and the only real benefit from silver is that it contacts better to silvered connectors?
How about resistance? somebody said that silvery solder has less resistance, I was thinking too that high power speakercables would like such solder.

I will be using mostly cheapish Amphenol connector which I find very good in indoor/studio applications. 1/2 of a price of neutriks.

So far I have been making mostly unbalanced / guitar cables with Schulz IK5. Does anyone have any comments about this cable?

-Tomi