Idea for "Tape Emulator" that actually uses tape!

[Psyko/Acoustics]

Wouldn't that become one worn out piece of tape really fast? Can the domains take being buggered around that much?

[ben_allison]

Quote from Fletch from this thread:

Originally Posted by Fletcher

As for reusing tape... as long as the oxide stays attached to the Mylar backing you can reuse the shit ad infinitum. The erase head on any tape machine will take the previous signal down 85+db which will be more than enough to re-record on the same piece of tape.

I would caution going over splices unless you know your heads are in good condition but other than that there are no struggles what so ever going over masters as many times as you'd like.

At a studio I worked at during the 80's we must have rented the same reel [for $40/project] 50-60 times before someone liked what they had printed on the reel enough to buy the tape [for $100.... which at the time was $25- off the regular retail price of a reel of 2"!!].

As long as your tape path is properly aligned and your erase head/circuit is working properly and you're not head and tailing the takes... have at it!!

So it seems that it shouldn't be a problem if he's right.

[XSergeantD]

So you are looking to make a multi-track Echoplex. The only problem I see is getting the splicing exact. On the Echoplex, the spool was so long that you usually wouldn't notice the splice, but with larger tape you can't get into tape spools as the possibility of a tape fold would be disastrous. You can probably modify an existing machine to loop around the supply and take-up reels, but you're still dealing with head delay, each track will have to be bumped back after each tape unless you get your head delay and make a 2-trk mix somewhere (I'm assuming you're dumping into a DAW) and advance that mix inside your DAW and then play to that track, but you'll have to modify the mix each time to add in the new tracks so I guess you'll have to use the first option and just nudge each take.

[ben_allison]

Would it be possible to manufacture a loop of tape that has no seam, and is essentially continuious?

I'm sure some new processes would have to be implimented, but that's true with any innovation.

[uk03878]

And a bit of the sound is in the transformers in the tape heads
But isn't that what the Neve Portico does - dummying heads (without tape)?

[ben_allison]

The electronics of tape recorders are an important component to consider when trying to get "that sound". So what I'm proposing would necessarily contain them. But what makes it an ultimate success is that fact that it actually uses tape, where other emulation designs eliminate it. What I'm proposing isn't an emulation -- it's tape. There's no fakery.

[David Kulka]

Originally Posted by ben_allison

The electronics of tape recorders are an important component to consider when trying to get "that sound"....

The transport is also extremely important. Combined with the need for quality electronics, this is the rub. We're talking about designing and building a tape machine from scratch with good quality record, repro, and erase electronics and a decent quality transport that needs to run for hours, days, or weeks with little maintenance. You'd have to be pretty careful about shutting it off, to minimize head wear.

Think of the Echoplex as a model. The specs and build quality were pretty rough and wouldn't come close to what pro audio people are accustomed to. So then what advantage would such a unit have over an inexpensive digital delay? Tape saturation, ie distortion, that you could never turn off. What else?

Interesting thread, but I don't think the concept is really practical!

[themaidsroom]

studer - a827

[ben_allison]

Originally Posted by themaidsroom

studer - a827

What about it?

[godcity]

what if the transport was just one central motor, and a continuous loop of tape was basically like a cartridge loaded onto the inner circumference of a short section of pipe? connect pipe to motor and voila!
that would eliminate the need for tape guides, capstan, pinch roller, etc. it would just be one motor running continuously and an audio path.

Originally Posted by David Kulka

The transport is also extremely important. Combined with the need for quality electronics, this is the rub. We're talking about designing and building a tape machine from scratch with good quality record, repro, and erase electronics and a decent quality transport that needs to run for hours, days, or weeks with little maintenance. You'd have to be pretty careful about shutting it off, to minimize head wear.

Think of the Echoplex as a model. The specs and build quality were pretty rough and wouldn't come close to what pro audio people are accustomed to. So then what advantage would such a unit have over an inexpensive digital delay? Tape saturation, ie distortion, that you could never turn off. What else?

Interesting thread, but I don't think the concept is really practical!

[themaidsroom]

i meant to say the studer a827 will do the things you ask.....
it has a quality transport......
sometimes if people play good, you might not need the computer........

[Berolzheimer]

Originally Posted by godcity

what if the transport was just one central motor, and a continuous loop of tape was basically like a cartridge loaded onto the inner circumference of a short section of pipe? connect pipe to motor and voila!
that would eliminate the need for tape guides, capstan, pinch roller, etc. it would just be one motor running continuously and an audio path.

Kurt has an interesting idea here- If running time, so that thousands of feet have to be loaded on to a reel, isn't an issue, it doesn't have to be tape per se- it doesn't have to be flexible. It could be magnetic media printed onto a cylinder, or a disk, ort maybe some other shape. With a rigid media aligment & transport would become much simple & more precise, and teh oxide could be thicker, wich can be helpful too- witness how glorious a good full-coat mag recorded on a good recorder can sound. Oh yeah, most of you haven't experienced that. Take my word for it, it's like taking the anaog tape experience yet a step further.

[ben_allison]

That's pure brilliance (Edison cylinder basical, but oxide).

And it seems like it would be easier to make it seamless than fusing two ends of tape together.

Now that I think about it...something that uses a cylinder like that could fit in a 1U rack space...maybe 2, but no more than that. Assuming the oxide is of a type/quality that can be erased and rewritten without problem, and at a sufficient speed, the cylinder could be small -- maybe 2, 3 inches in diameter, could it not?

* * *

So, a chassis with the basic electronic guts of a well like tape machine, and a single cylinder coated with some sort of oxide that can be efficiently written, read, and erased.

The output of which should be emulation free tape sound, with no real upkeep, and no tape costs (except once in a blue moon, when the cylinder finally bites the dust).

godcity, yes, you'll get royalties!

And nudging tracks in a DAW is really a mininmal job. Especially with some DAWS that can be set with a delay.

[godcity]

ok, so who are we going to get to build it so we can make all our money? haha

my dad is a machinist and i'm a former biomedical engineer with CAD experience. so i can design and build transport prototypes. i suck and metalurgy and circuits though. if anyone seriously wants to try this, i can help.

Originally Posted by ben_allison

That's pure brilliance (Edison cylinder basical, but oxide).

And it seems like it would be easier to make it seamless than fusing two ends of tape together.

Now that I think about it...something that uses a cylinder like that could fit in a 1U rack space...maybe 2, but no more than that. Assuming the oxide is of a type/quality that can be erased and rewritten without problem, and at a sufficient speed, the cylinder could be small -- maybe 2, 3 inches in diameter, could it not?

* * *

So, a chassis with the basic electronic guts of a well like tape machine, and a single cylinder coated with some sort of oxide that can be efficiently written, read, and erased.

The output of which should be emulation free tape sound, with no real upkeep, and no tape costs (except once in a blue moon, when the cylinder finally bites the dust).

godcity, yes, you'll get royalties!

And nudging tracks in a DAW is really a mininmal job. Especially with some DAWS that can be set with a delay.

[godcity]

i've been thinking about this some more. got some questions and some conclusions....
how will this be aligned? is MRL going to have to make a cylinder? or can the repro stay fixed and just have record alignment and bias?
i think it's going to have to be at least a 3" diameter cylinder.
and for it to be a direct drive motor coaxial with a trianglular head array (heads at 120 degrees apart from each other), it's best to do it horizontally. that way, the motor can drive the cylinder from the opposite side as the heads. the heads and motor will both need to be mounted to a rigid bottom plate.
so probably going to need to be 3 or 4 rack spaces. besides, it will need space for audio electronics.
i'm thinking that since lots of people have converted their atr104's to 1/2" 102's, there's probably an abundance of 4 track headstacks around. i know i had a tough time selling one for $25. 4 tracks is probably a good place to start.
multiple units could be combined for more tracks.
i'm thinking it's something you'd probably put on your channel inserts or inbetween your DAW and summing mixer during mixdown. either that or during tracking. doing it during editing would add an extra AD and DA conversion.
i think during mixing would be better because you can group things together, so you wouldn't need as many tracks. i'd probably have 2 units running during mixdown. i'd have one at 30ips with my stereo drum sub and vox sub on it. then another running 15 ips with my guitar and bass submixes on it. maybe a 3rd unit at 7.5 ips for FX returns.
ooohhh... i'm getting excited.

Originally Posted by ben_allison

That's pure brilliance (Edison cylinder basical, but oxide).

And it seems like it would be easier to make it seamless than fusing two ends of tape together.

Now that I think about it...something that uses a cylinder like that could fit in a 1U rack space...maybe 2, but no more than that. Assuming the oxide is of a type/quality that can be erased and rewritten without problem, and at a sufficient speed, the cylinder could be small -- maybe 2, 3 inches in diameter, could it not?

* * *

So, a chassis with the basic electronic guts of a well like tape machine, and a single cylinder coated with some sort of oxide that can be efficiently written, read, and erased.

The output of which should be emulation free tape sound, with no real upkeep, and no tape costs (except once in a blue moon, when the cylinder finally bites the dust).

godcity, yes, you'll get royalties!

And nudging tracks in a DAW is really a mininmal job. Especially with some DAWS that can be set with a delay.

[7 Hz]

Things to think about:

Wow and flutter
Head wear
Alignment
Delay

All of which are going to be major issues for this device. Why not just use a tape machine to do this?

Sorry, I am deeply sceptical. This machine will be unreliable and will wear out fast. It will cost too much if its good quality, and it will fall to bits if it is shoddy.

[godcity]

all valid points. devil's advocacy is a good thing.

i think this thing would be useful due to it's simplicity, size, and portability. should be less of a maintence nightmare than a tape machine. and let's face it, it would be f'in cool. people would want to have it in their racks. (i say this as i'm looking at my mtr100, atr102, and three jh110's)

wow and flutter and head wear:
i think these can be addressed by some sort of spring loaded mechanism that holds the heads flush with the inside of the cylinder. some ball bearings attached to the heads can ensure consistant height and reduce wear.

alignment:
haven't figured that one out yet.

delay:
easily calculated. offsets for different speeds can be printed on the front panel of the unit.

Originally Posted by 7 Hz

Things to think about:

Wow and flutter
Head wear
Alignment
Delay

All of which are going to be major issues for this device. Why not just use a tape machine to do this?

Sorry, I am deeply sceptical. This machine will be unreliable and will wear out fast. It will cost too much if its good quality, and it will fall to bits if it is shoddy.

[ben_allison]

Isn't 7hz the Brown Note?

DON'T POOH ON MY IDEA!

Godcity...you know way more about this stuff than me...I just had the vision...

Let me go do some research...

[Savernake]

So, has this been made yet?!

[zmix]

Originally Posted by ben_allison

Would it be possible to manufacture a loop of tape that has no seam, and is essentially continuious?

I'm sure some new processes would have to be implimented, but that's true with any innovation.

Yes, it already exists...!! But not as a tape....it is a magnetic disk, aka a floppy disk...

[David Kulka]

Originally Posted by 7 Hz

...Sorry, I am deeply sceptical. This machine will be unreliable and will wear out fast. It will cost too much if its good quality, and it will fall to bits if it is shoddy.

He's right. It's really not practical. Another issue would be hum pickup. Repro heads don't like being anywhere near power transformers, fans, or power cords. Would be hard to solve this problem in a rack mount unit.

[axisdreamer]

The unit could sit on top of a rack or table top and still be much smaller then a real tape deck! You could have a small card cage section that would give you options for the electronics so you could choose tube or solid state and both would have transformers!

In terms of the heads,didn't technics make a cassette deck years ago that had glass heads or something like that ? I have an old deck with these heads and they didn't seem to wear out at all and I used that thing all the time for years?

[staudio]

I've been bouncing some tracks through a TEAC 1/4 inch deck and aligning in the DAW.
Sounds like tape to me. Instant gratification but with a lot of nudging leading up to it.

[poserp]

I wonder -- can tape heads interact correctly with other magnetic media, such as hard drives or old floppy discs? That's not the intended purpose for those things, but who wants to use stuff for its intended purpose anyways? A hard drive could be nice because you might be able to reuse the drive mechanism. Since hard drives have to maintain an exact distance from the read/write head I'd imagine they'd be stable enough for these purposes. Heck, maybe you could reuse the drive mechanism and replace the platter with something else. As per floppies, I think it'd be really cool to put a two-track read/write/erase head arrangement in a floppy drive case and hook it up to the computer via USB with its own a/d/a conversion...

[esaias]

Originally Posted by zmix

Yes, it already exists...!! But not as a tape....it is a magnetic disk, aka a floppy disk...

OK, now I want a delay built
out of a modified 8 or 5¼ floppy disk drive :P

-Tomi

[jordanstoner]

Funny reading over this. I actually had discussed building this exact unit with a friend, but we looked at the pricepoint and maintenance factors and decided it just wasn't commercially viable. Having a custom motor system built with cartridges instead of tape loops would require a large run of custom-machined parts, most likely. I guess you could retrofit / redesign something like a Fulltone Tube Tape Echo to accomodate this... but you're still looking at a tape loop. Then you run into the problem of what formula to choose, or would there be cartridge options, or would it be handled electronically somehow, etc. All-in-all, the con's outweigh the pro's, IMHO.

However, if budget weren't a factor and you really want to take a stab at it, PM me and we can talk about design.

[Chrisac]

An dont forget about us Electronic musician types. We spend a lot of time injecting our VSTis with soul and would like to saturate sounds through tape. In fact it may be us thats the biggest market for something like this.