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2SA1085 for Tangent 3216 source
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iampoor
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#1
18th November 2012
Old 18th November 2012
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2SA1085 for Tangent 3216 source

Hey all

Just picked up a tangent 3216, and am doing a full rebuild. Fully redoing the patchbay, recapping, Bypassing a couple caps with WIMA's etc. Ive read some posts from Jim Williams where he suggests using the 2SA1085 transistor to replace the input transistor in the mic pre. However, I can seem to source them.

Anyone have any recommendations/ideas?
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19th November 2012
Old 19th November 2012
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Greetings,

I have 4 Channels of that board and I love it. I've tried to keep them as original as possible because those channels do wonders with drums but part of that magic comes from its original design. I even did a write up about it for some online magazine a few months back.

FLASHBACK: Tangent Channel Strips from 3216A Mixing Console :: Performer Magazine

Please let me know how those transistors work out for you.
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#3
19th November 2012
Old 19th November 2012
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iampoor
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20th November 2012
Old 20th November 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rvwainscott View Post
Greetings,

I have 4 Channels of that board and I love it. I've tried to keep them as original as possible because those channels do wonders with drums but part of that magic comes from its original design. I even did a write up about it for some online magazine a few months back.

FLASHBACK: Tangent Channel Strips from 3216A Mixing Console :: Performer Magazine

Please let me know how those transistors work out for you.
Hey, I actually read your article before picking up the board! Its great to hear from you! My noard has a mix of different opamps, which ones are in your channel strips? How have they been working for you?

I will, they should lower the noise, which is never a bad thing.

Quote:
2SA1083. 1084, 1085 is same family low noise PNP transistors with different Ucb
voltage.

2SA1083 source 2SA1083 TO-92, Consolidated Electronics
2SA1085 source 2SA1085 - Mark 5 - Suppliers of obsolete electronic components
Thanks for the link, I should of checked the related transistors in the family
Since Im in the US, I will definitly go with the 2SA1083, dont want to pay 35$ for shipping from the uk, on 15$ of parts.
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20th November 2012
Old 20th November 2012
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Hey if this is the schematic for the input channels you are talking about, those aren't PNP transistors but NPNs. Maybe Jim Williams erred.. The Hitachi NPN equivalent to the 2SA1085, 86, 87 would be 2SC2545, 46, 47 (as recommended by Jim Williams, and they are very nice indeed).



2SC2545 are available from futurlec.com
#6
23rd November 2012
Old 23rd November 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iampoor View Post
Hey, I actually read your article before picking up the board! Its great to hear from you! My noard has a mix of different opamps, which ones are in your channel strips? How have they been working for you?
Greetings,

My particular board was loaded up with LF351's - here and there I might come across a TL071 but it was rare and not on every channel.

I really like these channels but they are somewhat of a one trick pony. The EQ's are not much good for anything but percussion and given that I only use those channels for percussion, it works out well for me.

Although I may draw some hate by saying it, the Tangent board very much reminds of of the +/- 15 volt API stuff. The Tangents run off of that same voltage and have a fast attack like the API. As I said in the article, I really like how those channels overshoot the transients almost to the point of being a transient shaper as much as it is a channel strip.

I mostly work with vacuum tube projects and my knowledge of transistor circuit design is very minimal. For that reason, I tried to leave as much of the original design alone as possible and just enjoy the board for what it is.

Please let me know how it works out for you.
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26th December 2012
Old 26th December 2012
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Hey CZ, thanks for pointing that out, thatb is the schematic! I hadnt had a chance to look over it, so thanks for catching that blunder! Nice, I will probabll order 50 of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rvwainscott View Post
Greetings,

My particular board was loaded up with LF351's - here and there I might come across a TL071 but it was rare and not on every channel.

I really like these channels but they are somewhat of a one trick pony. The EQ's are not much good for anything but percussion and given that I only use those channels for percussion, it works out well for me.

Although I may draw some hate by saying it, the Tangent board very much reminds of of the +/- 15 volt API stuff. The Tangents run off of that same voltage and have a fast attack like the API. As I said in the article, I really like how those channels overshoot the transients almost to the point of being a transient shaper as much as it is a channel strip.

I mostly work with vacuum tube projects and my knowledge of transistor circuit design is very minimal. For that reason, I tried to leave as much of the original design alone as possible and just enjoy the board for what it is.

Please let me know how it works out for you.
Hmmm, interesting, my board is loaded with mostly MC3400's, Tl072's and Ne5532's (In order of most to last). Looking at installing LME49710's, but Im not sure what my ears will tell me first

Have you tried the sweep modification? ive heard that improves it alot, what are you not a big fan about with the Eq's?

What do you mean exactly about the trnansients? Does the opamp have a strange reaction and add some pleasent harmnic distortion to the edge of the transiets? Ive just heard some different opinions. one man said the board made the transients almost "sluggish", and thats not what Im looking for (Not sure what his board was loaded with, most likly an op amp with a slower slew rate?)

I will! i will be making a thread soon documenting the journey, its been pretty intense so far.
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26th December 2012
Old 26th December 2012
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Congratulations on getting a Tangent. These are the sleepers of the big names, I think, akin to MCI, Soundcraft and Allen&Heath.
Frankly, I'd change those transistors to any 2SA NPN but replace the TL072 with something a bit more, let's say, "refined". And I'd chosse whichever opamp is recommended by the pros here on GS.

Oh, Happy new year and PLEASE POST PICS! I need my fix of seventies studio swank.

2N
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26th December 2012
Old 26th December 2012
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Thought this was kinda funny.
Google "tangent 3216"
Google
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27th December 2012
Old 27th December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2N1305 View Post
Congratulations on getting a Tangent. These are the sleepers of the big names, I think, akin to MCI, Soundcraft and Allen&Heath.
Frankly, I'd change those transistors to any 2SA NPN but replace the TL072 with something a bit more, let's say, "refined". And I'd chosse whichever opamp is recommended by the pros here on GS.

Oh, Happy new year and PLEASE POST PICS! I need my fix of seventies studio swank.

2N
Havent heard it yet, but thats why I bought it
Very MCI esque. maybe Tangent was the first company that did what the infamous Behringer does? :p

Oh man, I havent even gotten to the op-amps yet....
After looking the board over today, mine seems to have every single type possible! TL071's. Ne5534's, Mc3400's, I eve found a single channel loaded almost exclusivly with LF351's! This is my first console rebuild, but holy cow, I can figure out why my board is loaded with so many different op-amsp! very single channel is a different configuration as well.

I think the strips in mine are from 2 different boards. Some of them were manufactured almost 2 years apart.

Ill post some pics soon, Im just pretty overwhelemed with this board as of now, the more I dig, the more I find to do, and it keeps on turning into more and more research. Of course, thats why I bought the board, but after a day of not very fun work, I sometimes want to forget that the dang thing even exists

You know, the funny thing is, I didnt even think about that google result when ever I googles it, because I was too focused, thats hilarious
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27th December 2012
Old 27th December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iampoor View Post
Havent heard it yet, but thats why I bought it
Very MCI esque. maybe Tangent was the first company that did what the infamous Behringer does? :p
You mean offering the same as competitors for cheaper? I have no idea what they were worth in the seventies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iampoor View Post
Oh man, I havent even gotten to the op-amps yet....
After looking the board over today, mine seems to have every single type possible! TL071's. Ne5534's, Mc3400's, I eve found a single channel loaded almost exclusivly with LF351's! This is my first console rebuild, but holy cow, I can figure out why my board is loaded with so many different op-amsp! very single channel is a different configuration as well.

I think the strips in mine are from 2 different boards. Some of them were manufactured almost 2 years apart.
Wow. It seems your board has traveled in time... Or is a "temporal collection" of ICs!

Quote:
Originally Posted by iampoor View Post
Ill post some pics soon, Im just pretty overwhelemed with this board as of now, the more I dig, the more I find to do, and it keeps on turning into more and more research. Of course, thats why I bought the board, but after a day of not very fun work, I sometimes want to forget that the dang thing even exists

You know, the funny thing is, I didnt even think about that google result when ever I googles it, because I was too focused, thats hilarious
No worries, I know how it is when I got my Allen& Heath, it was like that too, lots of reverse-engineering trying to even figure out what the darn Post-fader switch did and why I wasn't getting ANY sound at the stereo output...

To say the least you have an interesting Tangent that will be a sonic smorgasboard when it's up and running provided you keep the opamps like they are, you'll have a different sonic character on every channel! (which when I think of it wouldn't be that desirable) Oh well. Those meters look so COOL!
Well, I gotta go shovel that snow... yay.
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#12
27th December 2012
Old 27th December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2N1305 View Post
You mean offering the same as competitors for cheaper? I have no idea what they were worth in the seventies.

Wow. It seems your board has traveled in time... Or is a "temporal collection" of ICs!

No worries, I know how it is when I got my Allen& Heath, it was like that too, lots of reverse-engineering trying to even figure out what the darn Post-fader switch did and why I wasn't getting ANY sound at the stereo output...

To say the least you have an interesting Tangent that will be a sonic smorgasboard when it's up and running provided you keep the opamps like they are, you'll have a different sonic character on every channel! (which when I think of it wouldn't be that desirable) Oh well. Those meters look so COOL!
Well, I gotta go shovel that snow... yay.
I wasnt being too serious, but who knows.
Well, I know they werent offering the exact same thing, as this was one of the first "transformerless" designs, but quite a few people have mentioned it seeming fairly close to an MCI. I havent compared schematics, so im just kinda taking the experts word on it.
I found an ad on Ebay yestarday with an original Price list. The console was 17,070 in the 70's...That translates to about 53,000 today.

Yeah, or something! It seems somewhat pieced together with different channels or something! Im thinking of taking out all the Tl071's and using those in the eq's, then upgrading the mic amp/sends and then keeping the tape return with some of the older IC's for a different color. I will probablly keep one channel (The one with LF351's) all original, just to have a different option. The last 4 channels on Im planning on using for parrallel compression/reverb returns, so I dont think having a few different sounds will affect that too much, not like the lead vocals are going through them

The meters do look cool. I know all the metalheads that im recording are going to be so confused as to why my "control surface" has so many LED'S
Seems like no one doing metal stuff on the lower end level uses consoles anymore...I just personally hate the workflow in the box.

Yeah, Im going through that phase right now. I just fully rebuilt my first channel. It worked when it wasnt in its "card" (Just the raw PC board), but now it doesnt....Sigh

Snow
#13
29th December 2012
Old 29th December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iampoor View Post
Hey CZ, thanks for pointing that out, thatb is the schematic! I hadnt had a chance to look over it, so thanks for catching that blunder! Nice, I will probabll order 50 of them.



Hmmm, interesting, my board is loaded with mostly MC3400's, Tl072's and Ne5532's (In order of most to last). Looking at installing LME49710's, but Im not sure what my ears will tell me first

Have you tried the sweep modification? ive heard that improves it alot, what are you not a big fan about with the Eq's?

What do you mean exactly about the trnansients? Does the opamp have a strange reaction and add some pleasent harmnic distortion to the edge of the transiets? Ive just heard some different opinions. one man said the board made the transients almost "sluggish", and thats not what Im looking for (Not sure what his board was loaded with, most likly an op amp with a slower slew rate?)

I will! i will be making a thread soon documenting the journey, its been pretty intense so far.
Greetings,

The LF351 predates the TL071 if memory serves me right and was discontinued by National Semiconductors a while back though it is still made by Fairchild and a few others if I remember correctly. People looking for an opamp with "color" and the guys doing guitar pedal stuff like that opamp. It is not a very accurate opamp and has a fairly big overshoot when presented with a transient. That overshoot and distortion sounds very good on percussive instruments and I love a board stuffed full of these things on drums. That is where the transient shaping comes into play.

I wouldn't use it on overheads or vocals or, say, acoustic guitar but the 4 channels of Tangents and a few Black Box Analog Design preamps are all I need to do drums. Well, that and some Adesigns for the overhead microphones.

I need a life.
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30th December 2012
Old 30th December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rvwainscott View Post
Greetings,

The LF351 predates the TL071 if memory serves me right and was discontinued by National Semiconductors a while back though it is still made by Fairchild and a few others if I remember correctly.
I think anything with LM or LF predates the TL0xx series, seeing as the LM and LF were used BJTs entirely (I might be talking over my head, but it seems to me that this is what I've noticed. That's why the TL series that TI introduced were so revolutionary, they offered JFET inputs) Anyway, I have no idea how they sound, I just know that everyone's heard more sounds than they think that went through one or many TL0xx chips...

By the way, National was bought by TI... but I'm sure most of you guys knew that. Roughly the same time Mr Bob Pease passed away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rvwainscott View Post
People looking for an opamp with "color" and the guys doing guitar pedal stuff like that opamp. It is not a very accurate opamp and has a fairly big overshoot when presented with a transient. That overshoot and distortion sounds very good on percussive instruments and I love a board stuffed full of these things on drums. That is where the transient shaping comes into play.
Interesting, I did not know this. (the transient thing) Which op-amp would be more accurate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rvwainscott View Post
...
I need a life.
By what you've already said, I think you just proved that you have a life, even if it is spent in electronics! (like mine, anyway... )
#15
30th December 2012
Old 30th December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2N1305 View Post



Interesting, I did not know this. (the transient thing) Which op-amp would be more accurate?

Greetings,

That is a question that I just do not know the answer to. Even the 5532 has an overshoot and it is info that is not always available on the data sheet. As I understand it, fastest response times and highest bandwidth comes with lowest accuracy and some overshoot.

The LF351 had both the bandwidth and the speed (at least for its time) but had a hefty overshoot and harmonic distortion once you got over 3k.

In my old studio, we had a pair of DBX 160VU's which were terrible compressors but worked great as transient shapers. People love to use them on drums because they believe it makes for a real punchy sound but in my opinion, the 160VU's just couldn't properly reproduce the transients. I always felt that same vibe in the Tangents with the LF351's.

Of course, I could be wrong about all of this but as engineers we all know that some of the best pieces of gear actually have some design flaw that makes them do the things we love. If everything were actually neutral and accurate then it wouldn't be any fun at all.

I say bring on the noise, distortion, overshoot and harmonics.
#16
4th January 2013
Old 4th January 2013
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Ok I too am looking to upgrade my Tangent 3216.

I too have seen the Jim Williams suggestions on another thread on here, suggesting replacing the mic pre transistors with 2SA1085's. And I saw where it was pointed out that the mic pre transistors are NPN, which the 2SA1085 is a PNP

Looking at my schematics and at my parts list. If I am reading it correctly the mic pre amp transistors are Q1 and Q2, and the are drawn as NPN. On my parts list the are listed as 2n 2222, which is NPN.

So what is the correct transistors for the mic pre?

Thanks
Brad
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5th January 2013
Old 5th January 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brad lepik View Post
...mic pre amp transistors are Q1 and Q2, and the are drawn as NPN. On my parts list the are listed as 2n 2222, which is NPN.

So what is the correct transistors for the mic pre?

Thanks
Brad
They are NPN. It couldn't be otherwise, the collector is going to +15V and the emitter is on the negative side of things, going to -15V. Your 2N2222 s are metal can TO-18, right?
#18
21st February 2013
Old 21st February 2013
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Ok I ordered and recived 100 lme49710s, and can get some 2sc2545s locally.

Looking at one of my channels, there are 19 tl071s per channel. Is there some spots better than others to use the lme49710 on. I plan on doing the mic pre. But should I replace all of the tl071 in each channel, or just maybe the mic pre and maybe a few others. Also the main monitoring channel looks to have 23 chips. Are some more important than others to replace?


Also my 2n2222As were in a to-92 package. Not the metal cans.


Thanks
Brad
#19
25th February 2013
Old 25th February 2013
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Hello Guys..

I have a 1978 Tangent 3216 that I used in my studio from 1979 to 1989...Recorded many an album on it to my 2 inch 30 ips 16 Track.. The thing was great and the music turned out excellent.

I am now in the process of getting rid of it...If you know of anyone or are interested in it , let me know.. I want to get rid of it all at once...It has the producer's Desk and the patch Bay...

It has 24 channels and 8 of the Channels are the newer style with the upgraded EQ's...Someone may want it just for the 8 upgraded channels and parts..

I haven't run it in years and will be testing it next week.

Mike
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27th February 2013
Old 27th February 2013
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28th February 2013
Old 28th February 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brad lepik View Post
I might be interest. You can email at bradlepik@yahoo.com with details on the board.

Thanks
What Parts would you be interested in Brad? Me and Mike have already started working out a deal on the board since we happen to live very close by. Im going to be using one of my boards for spares so Ill have a ton of leftover parts...

I sent you an email..
#22
2nd March 2013
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I upgraded the chips to LME49710 and it really opened up the sound.It has more clarity and more punch. I upgraded 4 input channels and the main channel. I replace the mic pre transistors in one with NTE 199s, NTE's version of 2sc2545. I am not sure about that yet, as I have not miced anything up and A/B'd the channels.
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19th April 2013
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Thanks to this website for putting Nathan and I together...

I did thousands of recordings between 1979 and 1989 and now Nathan has most of my gear and is the new blood that is doing Music...It is good to see the gear will continue to be used..

Thanks to Gearslutz...
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19th April 2013
Old 19th April 2013
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Originally Posted by Bucketlist2012 View Post
Thanks to this website for putting Nathan and I together...

I did thousands of recordings between 1979 and 1989 and now Nathan has most of my gear and is the new blood that is doing Music...It is good to see the gear will continue to be used..

Thanks to Gearslutz...
True that brotha! Glad to be able to give it second life!

Thank you Gearslutz!
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