Power Conditioning: Beyond the Transformer. Who wants to test one?

[CleanPWR]

Someone asked if this is a free trial, the answer is yes!

[Piedpiper]

I have some experience with AC line conditioners, especially in the audiophile world and currently use a Chang Lightspeed unit for my recording gear. I'm interested in trying one, and also interested to know what kind of technology you make use of.

[CleanPWR]

I am more interested in talking about why it works (the specifics, pictures, that stuff) after someone tries it out.

The technology is stupid simple, old over-looked information combined with some new hat. The problem has been theory, as it isn't easy to understand even by a lot of electrical engineers. Also the problems of the past are assumptions that all noise comes from the powerlines and shared appliances; when the reality is that it doesn't stop there!

Just as an example, high quality power supplies in equipment actually have common mode noise filters post transformer; it does happen, generating noise within the equipment. The scary thing would be if a lot of equipment generated the same frequency range because it would amplify this greatly (making the smaller filters in some equipment not so impressive). I don't know if it does, I don't own enough to test something like that (I would a couple studios worth right?!).

To give perspective, decent attenuation of noise in what I build starts at around 1600hz but is seen in amounts similar to Furman's cheaper units, all the way not that far off from 60hz. It is passive.

Do you know what is in the Chang Light speeds? Perhaps a couple caps for RFI, but I can't make out the sticks with different poles. I can't tell if they are connected at the bottom. Quantum purifiers? Capacitors? Huge ferrites? Inductors?

I can't build a trial unit until I have a decent idea of how many outlets I'll have to put into it, and what amperage range amounts I should shoot for? Rack mount I assume is ideal. It will take awhile to get built. (all done by hand currently, later custom PCB's for holding some parts if I get enough interest)

[Piedpiper]

Originally Posted by CleanPWR

I am more interested in talking about why it works (the specifics, pictures, that stuff) after someone tries it out.

The technology is stupid simple, old over-looked information combined with some new hat. The problem has been theory, as it isn't easy to understand even by a lot of electrical engineers. Also the problems of the past are assumptions that all noise comes from the powerlines and shared appliances; when the reality is that it doesn't stop there!

Just as an example, high quality power supplies in equipment actually have common mode noise filters post transformer; it does happen, generating noise within the equipment. The scary thing would be if a lot of equipment generated the same frequency range because it would amplify this greatly (making the smaller filters in some equipment not so impressive). I don't know if it does, I don't own enough to test something like that (I would a couple studios worth right?!).

To give perspective, decent attenuation of noise in what I build starts at around 1600hz but is seen in amounts similar to Furman's cheaper units, all the way not that far off from 60hz. It is passive.

Do you know what is in the Chang Light speeds? Perhaps a couple caps for RFI, but I can't make out the sticks with different poles. I can't tell if they are connected at the bottom. Quantum purifiers? Capacitors? Huge ferrites? Inductors?

I can't build a trial unit until I have a decent idea of how many outlets I'll have to put into it, and what amperage range amounts I should shoot for? Rack mount I assume is ideal. It will take awhile to get built. (all done by hand currently, later custom PCB's for holding some parts if I get enough interest)

How familiar are you with the other conditioners out there? There are many, with many different approaches such as Chang, PS Audio, Pure Power, Environmental Potentials, Belkin, American Power Conversion, Audience, Quantum Resonant Technology, Walker Audio, Bybee, Furutech, Sound Application, Monster, Richard Gray, Shunyata, Running Springs?

The Chang has the predictable MOVs and shunt capacitors, but the main element is the use of series iron lugs that act as bandpass filters supposedly presenting increasing impedance outside of the 60Hz range, if memory serves.

[CleanPWR]

I've looked at many of those. A bunch of them don't do a lot or are just power strips of good quality. As I stated personally I don't like transformers. A few of those do poor jobs of anything at all. The only one that I can tell that addresses cross-talk among equipment is the Audience units.

I just don't think it is on most people's minds when they design stuff; I don't think Audience even thought about it being a positive consequence.

Well I suppose there is no point in hiding the obvious (when ever someone peeks), I use shunting capacitors too. I am however tired of discussion the choices of particular parts. It is about how it sounds, not what one thinks to counter another school of thought. I want to work off of someone using one in a trial, first, and foremost, because that is when someone can truly understand. (head butting prior to that isn't productive)

Plus I am more interested in deliberately making units a little more custom. It allows better filtration. Frankly the smaller the unit the better the filtration needed because of transformer size in the unit. There are limits, and some equipment (power amplifiers) do not respond as linearly.

I use Bybee's in units when I hear the words "I don't care what it costs". It adds price in a very exponential way, but the added benefit is nice. I'm not 100% sold on them for being the sound I like personally but they undoubtidly clean up a noise floor while increasing bass articulation. I haven't played with their in-circuit device yet! I'll get around to it when I want to do solder work in my amplifer.

[Andrew Kinsey]

A very well respected mastering engineer and customer recently told me of his experiences with the expensive top of the line Furman power conditioner that he was asked to try out... he printed everything twice running straight into his mains, and then going through the Furman.

The difference was night and day... the pass he recorded from the mains sounded better, than the one that was being conditioned.

He told me that alot of mastering studios prefer not use power conditioners for this very reason, and that the extra circuitry somehow affects the audio.

Mixing studios, well thats a whole other ball game and you often see power conditionsers in use... but mastering engineers tend to be much more concerned with how these units affect the sound of their equipment.

[CleanPWR]

Interesting. The Furman did remove noise, but at a cost that was undersirable. That is exactly what I aim to avoid (and so far have).

[peety3]

I've never used one, but I remember reading an article years ago about a "balanced power" transformer (of which Furman sells a few). Long story short, the guitarist turned on his amplifier rig and instantly knew that his amp was deader than a door nail. Why? Absolutely no hiss. He fiddled with knobs, checked connections, and was quite resigned that the session was over before it started. One strum of the strings convinced him otherwise that his equipment was perfectly functional, with complete amazement.

I've always known guitar rigs to hiss like there's a never-ending air leak. If balanced power makes that go away, I'm willing to put one of those on my "studio" wishlist (as I get back into the (not-exactly) recording hobby).

[CleanPWR]

Amplifiers do benefit greatly, because, well, they amplify everything including noise. I find that there is an increased headroom for guitars (more space to play in, enhanced subtlety) along with lowered noise, much more emotionally invigorating resonance, with better attack and decay that just sings.

[Piedpiper]

Originally Posted by CleanPWR

I've looked at many of those. A bunch of them don't do a lot or are just power strips of good quality. As I stated personally I don't like transformers. A few of those do poor jobs of anything at all. The only one that I can tell that addresses cross-talk among equipment is the Audience units.

I just don't think it is on most people's minds when they design stuff; I don't think Audience even thought about it being a positive consequence.

Well I suppose there is no point in hiding the obvious (when ever someone peeks), I use shunting capacitors too. I am however tired of discussion the choices of particular parts. It is about how it sounds, not what one thinks to counter another school of thought. I want to work off of someone using one in a trial, first, and foremost, because that is when someone can truly understand. (head butting prior to that isn't productive)

Plus I am more interested in deliberately making units a little more custom. It allows better filtration. Frankly the smaller the unit the better the filtration needed because of transformer size in the unit. There are limits, and some equipment (power amplifiers) do not respond as linearly.

I use Bybee's in units when I hear the words "I don't care what it costs". It adds price in a very exponential way, but the added benefit is nice. I'm not 100% sold on them for being the sound I like personally but they undoubtidly clean up a noise floor while increasing bass articulation. I haven't played with their in-circuit device yet! I'll get around to it when I want to do solder work in my amplifer.

sounds like you've been around the block a bit... how does the demo work, and what do you honestly think I am likely to hear different from the Chang?

[CleanPWR]

Well if I can get an estimate on how many sockets, and how many ampere per socket (probably split into two or three groups), I can produce a trial unit that should cover the needs of an average studio/mastering studio. I frankly just don't know how many sockets, and what power level, a studio needs!

It won't be ready for awhile, but I'd like to get started!

The demo works like this, I make it, I send it to you and only ask that you'll send it back/to the next person. I think a months retention time is fair - or less if you don't like it.

I'd have to see a schematic of the Chang. It sounds like a device that may not hamper a professional studio or mastering setup but I can't say for sure. I do however fully suspect that it doesn't fight common mode noise from the equipment. I don't even know if the iron helps remove other noise from say switching supplies etc that you use, or only affects post wall socket. If it is an inductor I wonder how large it is (lots of resitance, parrallel, series?).

I didn't see a specifics on frequency range covered by it. It says no transformer and no coil (not sure what they refer to on this specifically, maybe giant chokes?). Perhaps they make a better unit than I do.

[Piedpiper]

Originally Posted by CleanPWR

Well if I can get an estimate on how many sockets, and how many ampere per socket (probably split into two or three groups), I can produce a trial unit that should cover the needs of an average studio/mastering studio. I frankly just don't know how many sockets, and what power level, a studio needs!

It won't be ready for awhile, but I'd like to get started!

The demo works like this, I make it, I send it to you and only ask that you'll send it back/to the next person. I think a months retention time is fair - or less if you don't like it.

I'd have to see a schematic of the Chang. It sounds like a device that may not hamper a professional studio or mastering setup but I can't say for sure. I do however fully suspect that it doesn't fight common mode noise from the equipment. I don't even know if the iron helps remove other noise from say switching supplies etc that you use, or only affects post wall socket. If it is an inductor I wonder how large it is (lots of resitance, parrallel, series?).

I didn't see a specifics on frequency range covered by it. It says no transformer and no coil (not sure what they refer to on this specifically, maybe giant chokes?). Perhaps they make a better unit than I do.

Well, I'm happy to help and provide feedback. The first thing that comes to mind is that studios typically have a LOT of equipment to plug in. Mine is relatively minimal with only 12 pieces plugged in, between interface, outboard mic pres, converter, compressors, headphone amp, and speaker amplifier. I plug the computer into a different socket. There are certainly lots of smaller rigs out there but I'm guessing they wouldn't be as much you market since they are likely non pro and not likely to prioritize a conditioner. Most "real" studios are going to have much more outboard gear but they can always get more than one conditioner.

[Matt Syson]

Hi
The possibility of BS for this stuff is immense unless you take the various pieces of equipment to a proper EMC testing station where with good gear all the various effects can be evaluated.
The terms 'Hiss' and 'Hum' should and usually do refer to different phenomenen, of which hum is usually related to the fundamental powerline frequencies and harmonics (which can be filtered) and Hiss, which is usually related to the gain and thermal noise within gear which CANNOT be filtered by anything on the power lines. Another 'apparent' source of hiss is higher frequencies of random or pseudo random interference which is interfering with intended operation of gear. This can be filtered and all decent manufactured gear will have suitable filters fitted.
Using any 'balancing transformer' is very likely to greatly increase the impedance of the raw mains supply which will affect different gear in a variety of ways. It may help reduce rectifier switching noise in 'cheaply made' units which could be deemed good, but for power amplifiers that draw varying and high peak currents it is generally bad as the operating conditions of the gear will alter. Good designs will however suffer relatively little from this unless pushed to extremes.
AL of this is however SCIENCE and will be measurable and repeatable but you do need the correct gear to do this in a properly set up environment.
All gear 'expects' to receive a constant, low impedance mains supply (ideally) but as soon as it has got past the mains input transformer all bets are off as however pure a sinewave the mains may have been when it entered the box, it is turned into massive high current peaks or 'chopped' in other ways if using an active power factor correction circuit.
There are regulations defining how much of this disturbance can be permitted to go back out of the unit carried on the (mains) input cable.
Matt S
PS, guitar amplifiers are usually an object lesson in how to do most things badly (in electronic terms) although they may sound OK for their usual purpose.

[jtwrace]

I am an audiophile so I do have some interest. As an engineer though, I'm still interested in objective data. Can you post some Audio Precision or dScope measurements so we can see what this conditioner does?

[Matt Syson]

Hi
Just read the stuff on the Chang site. It refers to magnetic materials being used on the conductors, well that is a coil (choke / inductor) with 1 turn.
Even a single piece of wire is an inductor.
The rest.........
Matt S

[CleanPWR]

There isn't anything wrong with induction per say, but rather with improper sized inductor (physical or resistance).

The problem with putting a scope on a conditioner is that you can't fake model a system the way you want. Real world circumstances are just not the same. It is really unfortunate, because it makes some gear look great and others look poor, yet says very little about how either perform real world. If you do the numbers game with an isolation transformer they look great, but that as you know they don't sound great with everything.

Trying to model this with fake equipment, fake loads, doesn't work very well because the noise that comes from things has a varying impedence. Filtration is also dependent on source impedence (how much is collected from the power producer). It would be best done by measuring an operating system over time, recording it so an average could be had. You actually have to measure with devices connected as the load affects Q. I don't have the means to do that. But I do have ears, and so do you.

[Piedpiper]

Originally Posted by CleanPWR

There isn't anything wrong with induction per say, but rather with improper sized inductor (physical or resistance).

The problem with putting a scope on a conditioner is that you can't fake model a system the way you want. Real world circumstances are just not the same. It is really unfortunate, because it makes some gear look great and others look poor, yet says very little about how either perform real world. If you do the numbers game with an isolation transformer they look great, but that as you know they don't sound great with everything.

Trying to model this with fake equipment, fake loads, doesn't work very well because the noise that comes from things has a varying impedence. Filtration is also dependent on source impedence (how much is collected from the power producer). It would be best done by measuring an operating system over time, recording it so an average could be had. You actually have to measure with devices connected as the load affects Q. I don't have the means to do that. But I do have ears, and so do you.

nicely put...

[Speedskater]

Bill Whitlock writes:

5.4 - POWER ISOLATION AND FILTERS

Because system noises are most frequently coupled from the power line, solutions which somehow “cleanse” or “purify” it have great intuitive appeal. However, in this author’s experience, such treatments usually produce marginal improvements, if any. Generally, the most cost-effective solution is to identify and eliminate the ground loops or other problems which allow the noise to couple into signal paths. This approach solves the real problem. Treating the power line to get rid of noise is like using a shotgun instead of a silver bullet to target the problem!
First, when any line filter, conditioner, or isolation transformer is used, Code requires that the device as well as its load still be connected to safety ground as shown.
Because transformer winding capacitance's and/or filter capacitors divert additional 60 Hz and high-frequency noise currents into the safety ground system, they frequently aggravate the problem they claim to solve.

In reality, many of the benefits often ascribed to “power treatment” schemes are simply
due to plugging all system equipment into the same outlet strip or dedicated branch
circuit. For obvious reasons, this is always a good idea!

http://www.jensen-transformers.com/a...%20seminar.pdf

[Piedpiper]

Originally Posted by Speedskater

Bill Whitlock writes:

5.4 - POWER ISOLATION AND FILTERS

Because system noises are most frequently coupled from the power line, solutions which somehow “cleanse” or “purify” it have great intuitive appeal. However, in this author’s experience, such treatments usually produce marginal improvements, if any. Generally, the most cost-effective solution is to identify and eliminate the ground loops or other problems which allow the noise to couple into signal paths. This approach solves the real problem. Treating the power line to get rid of noise is like using a shotgun instead of a silver bullet to target the problem!
First, when any line filter, conditioner, or isolation transformer is used, Code requires that the device as well as its load still be connected to safety ground as shown.
Because transformer winding capacitance's and/or filter capacitors divert additional 60 Hz and high-frequency noise currents into the safety ground system, they frequently aggravate the problem they claim to solve.

In reality, many of the benefits often ascribed to “power treatment” schemes are simply
due to plugging all system equipment into the same outlet strip or dedicated branch
circuit. For obvious reasons, this is always a good idea!

http://www.jensen-transformers.com/a...%20seminar.pdf

with all due respect, one man's limited perspective...

I can't tell you how many conversations I've had with understandably smug genius audio electronics designers that revealed their biases and limitations. Many backtracked when whatever controversial issue later proved out to be counter to their original theoretical position.

[surflounge]

Originally Posted by Piedpiper

How familiar are you with the other conditioners out there? There are many, with many different approaches such as Chang, PS Audio, Pure Power, Environmental Potentials, Belkin, American Power Conversion, Audience, Quantum Resonant Technology, Walker Audio, Bybee, Furutech, Sound Application, Monster, Richard Gray, Shunyata, Running Springs?

Does price of any listed relate to better quality, because of parts or build?

[Speedskater]

Originally Posted by Piedpiper

with all due respect, one man's limited perspective...

I can't tell you how many conversations I've had with understandably smug genius audio electronics designers that revealed their biases and limitations. Many backtracked when whatever controversial issue later proved out to be counter to their original theoretical position.

Do you have any idea just who Bill Whitlock is?
How about Jim Brown?
How about Keith Armstrong?
How about Henry W. Ott?

[Matt Syson]

Hi
It is only a limited perspective if the conclusions reached by Mr Whitlock and others cannot be replicated. Fortunately they can which is the basis of 'science' and not 'marketing'.
Given the scenario depicted in these various engineers' papers, you can apply the same components anywhere in the world and get the same results.
Matt S
PS Speedskater, out of curiousity where is Keith Armstrong these days?
I remember him from 1983 when we had a common employer.

[CleanPWR]

To me there is nothing more laughable than saying they don't do any good. I wouldn't even consider owning a stereo without one because I just end up not caring to listen to them. But my faith in many units is very low. It doesn't matter if it is DIY gear, Bryce, or McIntosh. With extreme amounts of money and lots of tubes, like $50k worth of gear, you get a lot of that bite removal. However any substantial volume still makes it a limited experience as people get tired. With one power conditioner it is gone with a DIY system that cost less than $1k.

Simply to say that with the way gear is made today there is just too much of a bite to sound. The level of fatigue is high, particularly with volume that brings it to a level that evokes emotion. We all know that in order to tolerate something just higher than that, people usually like to be drunk! (concerts, bars, etc) It isn't really about looking for extravagant changes, but rather letting equipment sound as good as intentioned and tested. You shouldn't be changing the sound but improving the qualities it already had.

A pet hobby of mine is ethics of science. To apply some points about philosophy surrounding power conditioning... First is that theory is limited to theory. We do experiments to see if our reasoning is valid or not, to prove theories. You can apply everything you know to theory, utterly convince yourself you know what will be true if an experiment happens, but you can't displace results with theory. Displacing results with theory, supposedly disproving results, is essentially ethically redefining an experiment as not being science but rather choosing faith over empirical (a preference to dogma).

I want to make a unit for people to try. I am working on parts selection based on the small feedback towards what one will need for a recording/mastering studio. At this point I think I'll make it a two part deal, two levels of filtration. Anyone playing with it can try either, and this will determine who would want what, and price (try trial unit isn't for sale, another will be made). We may find it is different from studio to studio. The big point however is that if you don't try it you can't actually disprove that it works or does not work. There isn't enough words in the world to displace empirical experience. The only thing that can do that is an unrelenting ego, more interested in self-preservation, than growth and change.

Back to ethics... Science in principle is unbiased. Unfortunately the definition of the purpose is subjective. I propose it is to catalog the complexity of things; so when something we believe shouldn't be is, we investigate the levels of complexity in order to understand it instead of invalidating it through ego. Most schools of thought believe science to be a tool purely to prove or disprove theory concerned with application. That sounds nice because it is sort of quick to results but it incurs significantly more bias which is antithetical to science - creating a marginally acceptable state of information that has to be retro-examined to continue validation; which often fails.

So... if you are a real skeptic you'll try benign things before passing judgment. If you are a common day blogging skeptic you'll choose ego > truth; rather you'll place faith over change and growth in order to subvert the extra work of 'new'. I guess there is always the benefit of 'bro-ing down' for confirmation bias ego boosting. Do whatever you like, I'm just offering a free trial on my dime.

[CleanPWR]

Originally Posted by surflounge

Does price of any listed relate to better quality, because of parts or build?

No. The quality is subjective to what you like for playback, recording, and studio. The question is how much of your personal taste is relevant to the commerce desires of your patrons. In general though I'd say only some of the more expensive units do anything at all worth having done. If I were to point ones that I'd consider trying (they might ask you to buy to try) are the Chang and Audience. Maybe I'd like others, but I'm just putting a guess out there.

[Speedskater]

Originally Posted by Matt Syson

Hi
[******]
Matt S
PS Speedskater, out of curiousity where is Keith Armstrong these days?
I remember him from 1983 when we had a common employer.

For Keith Armstrong try:

http://www.cherryclough.com/whoweare

[Speedskater]

Originally Posted by Speedskater

Do you have any idea just who Bill Whitlock is?
How about Jim Brown?
How about Keith Armstrong?
How about Henry W. Ott?

For other readers, they are the most visible experts and authorities ElectroMagnetic Compatibility (EMC) or (EMI/RFI) they have written books and countless papers and articles on the subject.

[Speedskater]

Keith Armstrong:
Welcome to the Keith Armstrong Portfolio
EMC Information Centre

Henry W. Ott
Henry Ott Consultants
Electromagnetic Compatibility Consulting and Training
home page

Jim Brown
Audio Systems Group, Inc.
Jim Brown - Principal Consultant
Audio and Video Systems
Jim Brown Bio
Publications
Audio Systems Group, Inc. Publications

Bill Whitlock
Jensen Executive Profiles
JENSEN TRANSFORMERS, INC. - EXECUTIVE PROFILES
a few of his papers
JENSEN TRANSFORMERS, INC. - APPLICATION PAPERS AND SCHEMATICS

[Piedpiper]

Originally Posted by Speedskater

Do you have any idea just who Bill Whitlock is?
How about Jim Brown?
How about Keith Armstrong?
How about Henry W. Ott?

Evidently I missed the mark on communicating my intended tone, which was not to denigrate respected authorities but to point out that the opinions of even the best of them are not beyond further scientific inquiry. If we did not question the status quo, there would be no progress. As I said, "with all due respect".

[Piedpiper]

Originally Posted by Matt Syson

Hi
It is only a limited perspective if the conclusions reached by Mr Whitlock and others cannot be replicated. Fortunately they can which is the basis of 'science' and not 'marketing'.
Given the scenario depicted in these various engineers' papers, you can apply the same components anywhere in the world and get the same results.
Matt S
PS Speedskater, out of curiousity where is Keith Armstrong these days?
I remember him from 1983 when we had a common employer.

By "limited" I mean, that it is my belief that there is always more to discover, more to be understood. I question anyone who asserts that there is no more to be known about something as deep, complex and subtle as the interface of electricity and audio. Witness all the disagreement among cutting edge designers.