console design

[mtsupiano]

Yeah I am probably crazy for even thinking about this, but here it goes. A friend and I were contemplating what it take to design and build a console. We were not thinking about something huge, more than likely a 24ch 16buss. We were planning on modifying exsisting designs to meet our own needs. More than likely we would use either neve or API type preamps. The EQ and the master section is still up in the air.

We were planning on building channel strips to try out the design, and to see if it sounds decent. From there we will build out the console.

Any advice?

[Wiggy Neve Slut]

Dude i have fantassized over this for so long its not funny. Just no one really has the time or $$ to make it a reality.

I stupidly suggested that we hold a forum on console design to gauge what people would want in a console if it was to be manufactured as a commercial concern.

Also there would be the question of would there be mic pre's in it or none at all to keep costs down and not having the console with all the same flavour pres.

-So would you build a console with modular preamps so that different one could be purchased and interchanged when needed

-Same with the EQ's

-Choice of summing amps and stereo busses

the choices are endless!
Wiggy

[mtsupiano]

Wiggy,

We didn't really intend for this to be a comercial project. More of a really huge DIY. If there were more people intrested in doing this, I could be convinced to make the preamps and EQ of a standard size.

It would be intresting to decide on size requriements, and let people design/build their own diy preamps and eq. I would be willing to design a website in order to house all of the information. If people get into it, they can post the infomation/schematics of their preamp/eq/stereo bus design...that way there would be several different choices for everything.

Just a thought

andrew

[Wiggy Neve Slut]

Sweet..

My dream console would be:

-No mic pre's cos i have more than enough to go around and it would cost quite a bit to integrate micpre's inot each channel.

-Simply a mixer for monitoring and mixing

-Fully Balanced transformerless inputs based on 990, JFET, 2520, Forssell type line driver.

-8 busses

-8 Auxes

-32 Channels

-Fully Balanced inserts selectable pre or post EQ. Inserts on the 8 busses

-Selectable hard left/centre/right pan or engage a pot for panning

-Selectable Mix buss architechture. Tube, Neve 1272, API 325, 990.'for colour selection'

-P & G fader throughout.

-Sifam Vu's on each channel and an NTP stereo buss PPM, phase scope that is fully patchable.

-The EQ section i am not sure about. I have thought about building a simple passive EQ into the channel strip ala Quad 8, whcih is very broad and musical and easy to build. And then having specialist EQ's for other tasks. Or having no EQ and relying totally on outboard EQ? Would be much easier this way to build and cheaper, so better parts could be used as a result. And would make the console a bti smaller too.

-TT patchbay cos it makes sense!

Keep the thoughts coming!

Wiggy

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by Wiggy Neve Slut
Sweet..

My dream console would be:

-No mic pre's cos i have more than enough to go around and it would cost quite a bit to integrate micpre's inot each channel.

-Simply a mixer for monitoring and mixing

-Fully Balanced transformerless inputs based on 990, JFET, 2520, Forssell type line driver.

-8 busses

-8 Auxes

-32 Channels

-Fully Balanced inserts selectable pre or post EQ. Inserts on the 8 busses

-Selectable hard left/centre/right pan or engage a pot for panning

-Selectable Mix buss architechture. Tube, Neve 1272, API 325, 990.'for colour selection'

-P & G fader throughout.

-Sifam Vu's on each channel and an NTP stereo buss PPM, phase scope that is fully patchable.

-The EQ section i am not sure about. I have thought about building a simple passive EQ into the channel strip ala Quad 8, whcih is very broad and musical and easy to build. And then having specialist EQ's for other tasks. Or having no EQ and relying totally on outboard EQ? Would be much easier this way to build and cheaper, so better parts could be used as a result. And would make the console a bti smaller too.

-TT patchbay cos it makes sense!

Keep the thoughts coming!

Wiggy

Hey Wiggy,

What about automation?

And only 32 channels and 8 auxes?

That would count me out.grudge

I think no pre's is a great idea, but for me a inline 64(128 input) channel/16 auxes/32 buss monster, groups(with solo and inserts) with total recall and automation(or just moving faders), some dynamics, and interchangeable EQ's would do the trick.

[Wiggy Neve Slut]

Thrill...

Im a rock dog so its all i need.. i usually only get to play with 24 channels so i make do with what i got. I would dearly love to have the extra channel for mults of EVERYTHING!!! and then some more!

I hardly use FX so it will work for me..

As for Automation im sure you could find some off the shelf system that would fit your needs. Im not overly expereienced with Automation systems except PT and the MACKIE which was actually pretty darn good ( put on flame suit!) the VCA's were pretty colourless and were fine for the stuff we were doing for years. what are your thoughts on them? Im not sure who you go about itnegrating them into the console other than something like Uptown which supplies you with thier own motorised faders.

As for recall i think the concept of having no pres' or EQ's is another significant factor that is taken out of the recall equation. im no tech expert and am only throwing around ideas at the moment but im sure there would be some way of providing some form of recal for the Auxes, pans etc. i mean if the AMEK BIG can be recalled then it is possible!!! but would add significantly to the cost as a result.

RE: Dynamics. i was thinking that perphaps there could be a space in the channel strip that can have one module slipped in... so then the module could be either an EQ, Dynamics or a Pre provided that they were configured electronically to support the console architechture. Kinda like the bulshit sony mxp thingo whihc never really took off where u could slip in API, Hardy or Avalon pres etc. This would afford the user a fair degree of userbility and cusomtisation as they needed or could afford!
the right modules.

When its made.. im sure we could accomodate a 'Thrillfactor special edition console'... but so long as you agree to pose by it with an ultra cheezy face and some bullshit quote' 'Thrillfactors uses and reccommends the WIGGY 2003 personal console for all his productions' lol and you would have to be tied to the production demo @ all AES convetions etc..

CHEERS
Wiggy

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by Wiggy Neve Slut
When its made.. im sure we could accomodate a 'Thrillfactor special edition console'... but so long as you agree to pose by it with an ultra cheezy face and some bullshit quote' 'Thrillfactors uses and reccommends the WIGGY 2003 personal console for all his productions' lol and you would have to be tied to the production demo @ all AES convetions etc..

CHEERS
Wiggy

Wiggy,

That's fine, as long as I get to pose with (2)beautiful buxom models at the conventions and in the pictures.

And I get to pick them of course, so I must be allowed to attend the "buxom model call".

So when can we begin?

[toolstudio]

Hi all,

thats really funny/strange....

I just had a 2 day brainstorming with an german pro audio company about building such a product.

Hardware frame wise, like a Neve51 12 channel bucket, which you could use stand alone as a sidecar or fit it together, add a master section and you have a console. The bucket has faders and aux sends already fittet.

My idea was to find a global module format for a module frames. Than try
to get manufacturers on our side, which
make modules for the mating slots. For example mic preamp modules, equalizers
with as many different flavours as possible.
Than for the master section, there could be summing amps and master compressors.

With that system you could really costum build your system and mix all different flavours as you like.
For example you could use API, Neve, chandler/EMI, GML or Avalon (...) style micpreamps (or even manley, dw fearn,... tube units with an PSU addition).
Than you could plug several types of channel equalizers in, like API, Avalon, GML, ...or passive designs, or like above also tube units.

On the master sections you could plug in different summing amps and have a place for different sum compressors.

Does anybody feels that this is a product the world is waiting for ?

wolfgang

[mtsupiano]

Hell yeah! Thats kinda what we were thinking, just on more of a DIY type project. We were thinking about having room for three modules (pre, eq, dynamics). The Aux would come as a part of the bucket/console. You could have a totaly flexible design...start out as a 8ch sidecar, then add a couple buckets and master section as you get extra funds or your needs grow. Here is what I would like:

32 Channel, 24 buss, EQ and Comp on every channel, 8 Aux sends, master section. I want everything modular so that I can mix and match pres, eq and dynamics. I could be convinced to go with a single master section, but it would be nice to have choices here too! Full moving fader automation and recall are a must.

Man if we could get a couple of manufactures on this project I would help with beta testing

If not, it would be a great diy project for people on the boards. We could each design a couple of modules and then be able to pick what fits our individual needs the best.

[hollywood_steve]

I think no pre's is a great idea, but for me a inline 64(128 input) channel/16 auxes/32 buss monster, groups(with solo and inserts) with total recall and automation(or just moving faders), some dynamics, and interchangeable EQ's would do the trick.
*******************************************
(*short detour to understand what's going on outside my little world*)
Wow,......I gotta get out more and see what the rest of you are up to. In the 26 years since I first sat down in front of a console, I have yet to fill up a 24 input console or use all the tracks on a roll of 2" tape. What the heck do you have plugged into input #63?

I'm not trying to be a wise guy, seriously, what goes into all those inputs? I can see a highly produced rock track taking up 24 to 32 channels if you mic every drum and add a different reverb for almost everything. But how do you get from 32 to 64? And any style of music other than rock tends to use far less mic inputs, not more; orchestras, big bands, etc. rarely run past 24 tracks, usually far less. The only place I've ever seen 40 or more inputs in use was on film projects. Oh, I take that back, I worked on a theme park attraction sound track with something like 50 inputs, but that attraction had a larger budget than all but a handful of Hollywood's most expensive pictures ($105M). What type of music uses this kind of quantity of inputs?
(*back to our program*)

I really like the idea of standardizing on an existing module format; like the 500 series API, for example. 8ch buckets with room for a mic pre module even if many guys choose to not include mic preamps. (sometimes you just want to throw up 4 or 5 mics without patching together a bunch of outboard). Personally, a 16x8x2 configuration would be all I'd ever need. The 8 groups are only necessary due to the inevitable move towards surround. And as the token minimalist, I'll be fine without automation, and 2 (4?) aux sends will be more than enough. (doesn't anyone else use the same reverb on all inputs to help tie everything together?)

Then there is the question of how much of the console needs to be new, DIY product? There is something to be said for building a well designed frame that allows you to utilize some of the best existing modules. Think of all the great stuff out there from Millennia, API, OSA, Brent, RTZ, Forssel, Hardy, etc. (I'm not even mentioning the "N" word.) Just a thought.....

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by hollywood_steve
I think no pre's is a great idea, but for me a inline 64(128 input) channel/16 auxes/32 buss monster, groups(with solo and inserts) with total recall and automation(or just moving faders), some dynamics, and interchangeable EQ's would do the trick.
*******************************************
(*short detour to understand what's going on outside my little world*)
Wow,......I gotta get out more and see what the rest of you are up to. In the 26 years since I first sat down in front of a console, I have yet to fill up a 24 input console or use all the tracks on a roll of 2" tape. What the heck do you have plugged into input #63?

I'm not trying to be a wise guy, seriously, what goes into all those inputs? I can see a highly produced rock track taking up 24 to 32 channels if you mic every drum and add a different reverb for almost everything. But how do you get from 32 to 64? And any style of music other than rock tends to use far less mic inputs, not more; orchestras, big bands, etc. rarely run past 24 tracks, usually far less. The only place I've ever seen 40 or more inputs in use was on film projects. Oh, I take that back, I worked on a theme park attraction sound track with something like 50 inputs, but that attraction had a larger budget than all but a handful of Hollywood's most expensive pictures ($105M). What type of music uses this kind of quantity of inputs?
(*back to our program*)

.....

Steve I mix songs that have lots of tracks(the background vocals alone can take 48 tracks). I like to hit the console with as much stuff seperated as I can. Also with all of the effet returns,parallel sub compression stuff and multiple channel chains on lead vocals, the mixes can get pretty hairy.

I own something like 75 effect units.

It be nice to use most of them in my mixes(not just in chains) but for certain instruments that need treatment. Nowadays I just pick a few and just use those through out.

Nowadays I track everything back in PT and work from there. It does take the track count to the stratosphere.grudge

A console with lots of inputs is a must for me.

If its only 32channels I might as well stay in the box.

[mtsupiano]

Hollywood_steve

Yeah, I would love to use some exsisting module designs, but there are a lot of problems. How many of these modules are the same size? How many have the same power requirements? To be able to use these modules, EVERYTHING would have to be standardized. Not to be a realist, but how possible is this?

I guess I probably ought to do some research on the modules.

[thethrillfactor]

I was thinking today that maybe Vince at Speck can build a console with the Speck EQ in it.

I know he has his Lilo mixer, but maybe he can build a version with the EQ's in it.

Or the RNC guys?

[mtsupiano]

Or possibly a manley 16x2 on steroids? Unfortunately this does not give us the possibility to mix and match EQ an preamps

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by mtsupiano
Or possibly a manley 16x2 on steroids? Unfortunately this does not give us the possibility to mix and match EQ an preamps

This was done on the Sony MXP-3036.

The reason i suggested Speck or RNC is because the units are so small and they are transparent(but useful).

I think an insert is enough for that(mic pre's), but i am biased since I don't track anyway.

For me a console for mixing would be more practical.

But I guess I am in the minority.

[Infernal_Death]

Well your ideas are very cool. I don't want to sound like an a$$ but i barely think this is all possible on a DIY-level. It would probably take several months or even years to complete such a console. There is a reason why the "big boys" like Neve, Api and SSL need their time to design and build a console (and those are professionals).
Alone doing a frame for 32+ modules is very hard if you don't have access to a CNC machine or something like that.
I don't have that much experience on DIY but i just finished a SSL mixbus compressor and this alone took some time, from ordering the parts, etching the boards, assembling to testing. And this would only be a tiny bit of your whole idea of a console.
Then also one of the main problems would be the cost of building such a console. Big brands can order parts in very big numbers and get discounts on them. Alone buying all the transformers for your console can cost over 1000$ (depending how many you need and what brand).
At the end my guess would be that you can get a used console fitted to your needs much cheaper than building one from scratch and then there is also the time you need to design, think, build and test.

I really don't want to discourage anybody but i guess it isn't that bad to also have some critical thoughts about this topic.
I wish you good luck on doing this project

Flo

[mtsupiano]

Yeah, you are totally right...I could go out and buy a console that would fit my needs for cheaper and with a whole lot less hassle.

And yes, I kind of figured that it would take a year or two to build.

But, I am a college student (I also own an IT firm...thus the $$$$) and I see this as an extension of my knowledge. I have taken all of the studio matinence and electrical engneering classes, and frankly I feel that designing/building my own gear is the next step.

I am intending to start the project out small, with just couple different designs for channel strips...and maybe a compressor. I will just go from there.

I know it is a huge comitment in time and $...but I gotta get my brain off IT sometime!! This gives me something long term that I can work towards

[Wiggy Neve Slut]

I own something like 75 effect units. ............

Thrill perhaps u r gona be the ultimate GEARSLUT and usurp Michael Wagner of the mantle. Can you please post us some pics of your rack of DOOM!!!!!!!!!

RE Channels: I see where you are coming from in regards to the obscene number you require. TOOLS idea of the buckets it a great one and was somehting was thinking along the lines of too. Like a simple berdi type connector that was strong and able to handle a BFO (Big Fuk Off) amount of line inputs, could simply connect all the buckets together to a master bucket. Thrill I think what you are requiring is a bit beyond what i would call DIY!!!! lol

Any ways whats the score with the Powerstation SSL u got hanging around?.. why dont u just use that for your summing and analogue stuff? its not like they suck ass or anything and i would give a body organ for one of those.

I still think that a console w/o pre's and EQ is the way for most of us as a basis for a DIY console. As we have enough of them in most cases that we have bought specifically to suit our applications.

In lieu of the pre's and EQ more effort and $$ could be invested in the summing junctions, pans, auxes, bussing, and basic soloing. Comprehensive solo's require a large amount of logic circuitry work, which is beyond my scope and comprehension .

So again here is my revised signal path for my console that would suit me most. ( This is for each channel)

1) -Line input section that would be fully balanced with some form of line driver/amp stage based on hardy 990, Forssell, API 2520 gain stage. With quality switched pots for recall and durability.

-Line trims so that the signals could be attenuated to suit different line levels coming from various sources.


-Phase buttons to invert phase 180degrees.


-Line Pad between 2-20dB in 2DB increments again with switched pot.... may not be needed depending on how well the line trim works.

2) - Auxilliary section:

- 4 mono Auxes selectable pre and post fader.

3) - 8 - 16 Busses all patchable so signals can be inserted into them and they will be routable to the stereo buss.

4) PAN: choice of selecting hard left/centre/Right or engaging a pan pot.

5) Insert selection switch that places the insert point pre Aux, post Aux pre busses, post busses. THe insert will be FULLY balanced so there is no gain structure problems with unbalanced inserts etc.

6) P & G faders... i know they cost a bit but they are really cool!..lol

MASTER section:

1) Oscilator

2) BFO knob that goes to 11 for monitoring playback! prolly a REALLY good and expensive POT for this one as it gets fiddled with the most.

2) Stacks of headroom.

3) 4 stereo source selectors

4) 4 monitor selectors... switched or simplut just decent buttons.

5) Aux and Buss trims

And as mentioned a TT patchbay.

Im hopefully gona knock up some drawing soon and will post them ASAP..

Cheers
Wiggy

[quadwould]

mtsupiano..

i am in the process of starting a huge research project on console design and ergonomics... addressing questions like:
why put the auxes where they are
why put the eq where it is
(if dynamics) why put it wher it is...
(if small fader) why put that wher it is....

these are all basic questions and are elaborated on in much more detail when directed at any specific manufacturer.

other things considered are the angle of the console.
why one or many different angles for different sections.

other areas are the acoustic footprint, and in general what the console does to a room.


all of this so far is for analogue consoles.. digital consoles.. well thats another huge can of worms.



you say you would be interested in building a site to host schemats and other design related things.... i would be able to contribute a bit to it, as i have been collecting schemats for this project....





i have been thinking about designing a console for a while now (just on the layout and feature side.... although i can repair/tech things.. i am not one to design circuits)..... and thus my doing this project.... i am willing to help on any ergonomic design issues.


will post later a wishlist for a console

[mtsupiano]

Yeah, I can throw a site together for the project. It will probably be an extensions of my domain name, but all of the servers are sitting in my bedroom coloset already running.

Keep in mind, I kinda tied up until the middle of October, and then I have a record to do. But I can probably fit it in sometime in october.

Andrew

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by Wiggy Neve Slut
I own something like 75 effect units. ............

Thrill perhaps u r gona be the ultimate GEARSLUT and usurp Michael Wagner of the mantle. Can you please post us some pics of your rack of DOOM!!!!!!!!!

Any ways whats the score with the Powerstation SSL u got hanging around?.. why dont u just use that for your summing and analogue stuff? its not like they suck ass or anything and i would give a body organ for one of those.

I
Cheers
Wiggy

Wiggy,

I don't think i could match MW pound for pound...no way!!!grudge

I do like effect units and its part of my sound.

On some its just the Noah's Ark thing(2 of each of my favorites).

The PowerStation SSL is being worked on as we speak(another $4K by the way) and it has no automation(only the old E).

It will make me more money to keep it in my friends control room and he just gives me a rental fee to use it (also i get 2 days a week on it).

I need something for me.

Also for those mix clients that can't afford the "big room", but I can still do what I have to do on it and for my own productions.

[GrantB]

hmmm.... like this? http://www.geocities.com/dj4mc/Studio.html

[Bernd G]

I have been contemplating a similar project of DIY mixer. But all the components, if they were to be any good, together alone will cost more than a vintage analog mixer which you could simply alter to your taste. Think about it.

Cheers

[JulesRycke]

OK, here it goes, I was asked to discuss this from someone who knows I built one. I think I still have the thing on the web and will double check. I have built several small mixers previously. Then in 1995 I built my "dream" home console. It is 16 inputs with a monitor input on each channel (thus 32 inputs on "mixdown") I only have 8 of the channels with slide faders, the rest are rotary pots. Each channel has a mute and solo switch. There are 5 aux sends, three post and 2 pre fader. The thing I really wanted and coudn't find in a project console were the returns and the monitoring section. There are 8 stereo returns and 4 mono panable returns. The monitor section allows you to switch between main mix, any of the aux sends and 2 tape returns. I also built in one mic pre (which is switchable for sending to Aux one or two. I thought it would be used as a talk back mic) and a headphone amp for monitoring. I used OP-275's for all the channels and AD-797 op-amps for the main buss summing amps. The supply rails are +/-20VDC (heat sinks on the AD-797's as they are only rated to 18) It is very quiet and I love it. I also have a 11X16 patch bay using 1/4 inch jacks built into the mising board surface. There are no EQ's or Mic Pre's on the individual channels. All outboard. The beauty is that the signal goes through max of three op-amps for the main mix. Now the bad part. It cost me over a grand in parts. The knobs for the pots were more expensive than the pots. I spent several weeks of nights and weekends soldering. I originally had a DAT machine for mixdown and a bunch of outboard gear and I totally dug being able to use it all at once. The draw back is now I record and mix totally into the Mac and don't touch most of the features I have. I still have the outbard gear and like having a knobs to actually grab. OK, there it is. I will try to answer questions if anyone has any. The hardest part was the case design and drilling a butt-ton of holes. Was it worth it?..... Yes. Would I do it again? Having a three year old at home... No. I also designed and built a DJ mixing board which was written up in Radio Electronics about 4 years ago. Once again to get the feature set I needed and wasn't there.

[mtsupiano]

Hopefully you will stick around to see how the conversation develops! As you can see from the discussion on the previous pages, we are talking about a monster project. There are a lot of different "wish lists" that are being talked about. With that said, I am seriously thinking about taking this project on! I guess I will start the questions. What if any problems did you run into with the design/construction of your console? What were you looking for when you designed the console (clean sound or more colored)? Do you even think it is possible to design a DIY 32ch, 24 buss, 8aux console with eq on every channel...or am I a few cards short of a full deck?

Andrew

[fatty]

sorry to piss on your parade but this idea has popped up several times already on various forums and no-one has yet to bring it to fruition.

the idea of a mix'n'match customised desk is fantastic. i think tim farrant from buzz audio tried to get something happenning a few months ago with a modular rack kinda deal and it eventually fell over. it seems various manufacturers require different things. is this correct tim?

the chance of this thing ever taking off in the real world is very slim. anyway, PLEASE prove me wrong, nothing would give me greater pleasure!!