oscilloscope

[robertshaw]

are software oscilloscopes worth the investment or should I just buy a real one?

[Matt Syson]

Hi
Depends what you want to do with it.
Check out the 'features' of each possibility, having decided what you want to measure.
You can do more 'tricks' with a 'software' one but I find a 'real' analogue one to be less liable to misinterpretation. You need a lot more 'bandwidth' than you may think to make meaningful measurements.
Matt s

[The Real MC]

A/D conversion for measurement tools such as oscilloscopes is even more critical than audio.

If you're just viewing audio waveforms then a software one is sufficient as A/D converters only need to be audio 20Khz bandwidth.

If you're going to develop and/or troubleshoot live circuits then a hardware 'scope is the better choice. You will need at least 100Mhz bandwidth for audio circuits (you need the bandwidth to detect ringing and RF) and minimum 500Mhz for digital circuits. Software 'scopes for that kind of bandwidth need A/D converters that are really expensive. Puts a big demand on memory too.

[tINY]

I wouldn't bother with a software one if you just want it as a scope....

However, audio and acoustic measurement packages with a good 196k/24b front end is a great way to go. ...if you want to do those kinds of measurements.


-tINY

[robertshaw]

thanks guys.

just looking for a scope for doing DIY pres and other homemade audio gear
not doing anything serious

[robertshaw]

Originally Posted by The Real MC

A/D conversion for measurement tools such as oscilloscopes is even more critical than audio.

If you're just viewing audio waveforms then a software one is sufficient as A/D converters only need to be audio 20Khz bandwidth.

If you're going to develop and/or troubleshoot live circuits then a hardware 'scope is the better choice. You will need at least 100Mhz bandwidth for audio circuits (you need the bandwidth to detect ringing and RF) and minimum 500Mhz for digital circuits. Software 'scopes for that kind of bandwidth need A/D converters that are really expensive. Puts a big demand on memory too.

thx so what brands/models do you recommend
I was looking at this tektronix but it's very expensive

[Bill Way]

If you go the hardware route, check out Precision Audio Services. Refurbed gear by John Bau - nice guy who developed the Spica speakers ages ago.

WW

[tINY]

The Tek DPO2024 is a nice scope and comes with excellent passive probes for only $3k....

For a new scope, this is a steal.


-tINY

[robertshaw]

Originally Posted by tINY

The Tek DPO2024 is a nice scope and comes with excellent passive probes for only $3k....

For a new scope, this is a steal.


-tINY

thx tINY

I'm curious why are scopes still so expensive in this age of inexpensive ICs?

[travisbrown]

Originally Posted by robertshaw

thx tINY

I'm curious why are scopes still so expensive in this age of inexpensive ICs?

Precision commercial gear. A piece of pro audio gear that sophisticated would easily be a comparable price.

There are hundreds of scopes on EBAY at any given moment I'm actually looking for one too.

tINY: where have you been? Haven't seen you post for ages.

[Matt Syson]

Hi
The D/A and A/D converters used on even the most expensive interface (audio) boxes are only about 15 to 20 Dollars apiece.
It's not what you use it is the way you use it.
Matt S

[audiotech]

Either software or hardware, the oscilloscope is one of the best diagnostic and servicing tools ever invented, if the user is schooled on its operations.

Dennis

[mhs2xs]

I have the Rigol 1052E and like it.
Haven't got to use it as much as I want, but it's got some good reviews and is decently priced as far as oscopes go. Go to eevblog, there's lots of video reviews of stuff there.

Rigol DS1052E Digital Oscilloscope 50MHz Rigol DS1052E DS 1052E DS-1052E
Rigol DS1102E Digital Oscilloscope 100MHz Rigol DS1102E DS 1102E DS-1102E

[._.]

This one is interesting, its 16/20bit so you have a low noise floor (-95dB). Regular scopes all seem to be 8 bit (mucho noise, probably useless) and gazzillion mhz. And this one comes with software.

Not too expensive either

£749·00
US$1,235·85*
€906,29*



Very-High-Resolution Oscilloscopes from Pico Technnology

[The Real MC]

There is MUCH more to a digital 'scope than just the A/D. MUCH more than just the firmware. The input gain, filters, other components are still in the analog domain and in a complex measurement system like a 'scope there CANNOT be any compromises in the input stage. I'm an EE and have studied from Tektronix schematics, and those designs are from another planet.

[vince @ speck]

I would recommend a regular lab-type scope. Something like this:

Tektronic 2246A Oscilloscope with cart | eBay

4 inputs, displays voltage and time measurements. I would also invest in good probes

[mhs2xs]

Originally Posted by The Real MC

There is MUCH more to a digital 'scope than just the A/D. MUCH more than just the firmware. The input gain, filters, other components are still in the analog domain and in a complex measurement system like a 'scope there CANNOT be any compromises in the input stage. I'm an EE and have studied from Tektronix schematics, and those designs are from another planet.

Do you have an opinion on the Rigol scopes? They seem to be considerably less expensive than the Tektronix, at least when I was looking at them they were. I bought one to use in educating myself in mic modding, but haven't had a lot of time to use it as I'm still researching and don't want to fry anything. It seemed like a good value made with decent components, especially for someone like me who's just getting into electronics.

[NEWTON IN ORBIT]

Cheap software scopes are sad. You need the bandwidth of a good lab scope.
100 mhz at least.

It's not worth the investment at all if it doesn't do this.

Get a tektronix and a Fluke F.G. or something.

john

[shaddai]

If you're patient, you should be able to pick up a clean used Tektronix 465 off of ebay for $150-200 or so.

Love mine :-)

todd

[mhs2xs]

Originally Posted by NEWTON IN ORBIT

Cheap software scopes are sad. You need the bandwidth of a good lab scope.
100 mhz at least.

It's not worth the investment at all if it doesn't do this.

Get a tektronix and a Fluke F.G. or something.

john

Yeah, I need to see what the latest is on rooting mine, it's a switch to go from 50 to 100MHz, otherwise, same components.

[._.]

the big question I see is: what are you trying to measure??

In a lot of stuff today such as preamps, power-amps and such you want to know THD and noise, those are major parts of gear that sound good. Knowing this, and be able to measure this is important. There is no need to measure stuff if it doesn't tell you anyhting useful. an 8 bit scope can tell you if you designed something very wrong. but it can't tell you more than that, it can't quantify how good or bad something is if its working "properly", you can't see if you get more or less noise doing x or y.

All this you can forget with a 8 bit scope, the noise floor is at -45dB or so. And even the shittiest worst sounding crap you'll ever find is better than this, you can't measure it at all with a 8 bit scope. Most things have noise floors that is -100dB below.

If you want a real scope that is useful its probably going to cost you 10-100k!! Then you can just as well get a Prism dScope audio analyzer for 5-6k, and it will do much much more. The picoscope has a bandwidth of only 5mhz but thats ok since you are construction things for up to 20khz but it has 16 bit resolution and 20 if you do something special to it.

Why spend 10k on a scope that can tell you what happens at 500mhz when your info is at 20khz?? And still only 8 bit (totally useless)??

I'm not saying the picoscope is that much better since its totally bordeline if you can measure something valuable with at all considering what you are aiming for in analog gear.

If you are designing a synth one of those 8 bit scopes can be useful, to make sure its working properly, to some degree at least. Otherwise these are shit scopes, they are not made for audio at all. The hint is: they are speced at 100-200mhz 8 bit, this is totally useless for audio especially since you give up resolution and noise, they are made for shit that runs at 200mhz!!! Car data busses and whatever. When designing a synth you can just as well get the cheapest picoscope for like 250 and it will be just as useful for that thing, since its just as bad as all other 8 bit scopes, since its 8 bit.

The relatively cheap 16 bit picoscope can at least quantify something, if you build fairly bad gear that is.

There is a reason a real audio analyzer cost 6k, because that what it costs to get somethning useful.

Here is some info on gear you need NwAvGuy: Testing Methods

My recommendation is to read up on these things first, find out what you want to measure, and find out what the gear can do before you buy anything.

And if you don't want to pay big bucks then you might as well just buy the best gear there is and the cheapest possible scope (beacuase it doesn't matter), you will still come out on top both regarding the quality of the gear/sound you have and money in the pocket over the long run (your whole life).

Just a thought.. don't want to offend anyone but this is the way it seems to work, unless you plan to build really (really!) shitty gear which you have no intention of being able to test and evaluate in any meaningful way anyway.

And just to clarify, I want to build my own gear too, I did my homework, and now I know its better for me to just buy good shit instead and be happy, and spend my time finding what the good shit is. Or 6k and a degree..

[The Real MC]

Originally Posted by shaddai

If you're patient, you should be able to pick up a clean used Tektronix 465 off of ebay for $150-200 or so.

Love mine :-)

todd

Yes the 465 is an excellent buy. Just be sure to get one that is certified 100% functional. Buying 'scopes from the 'bay is caveat emptor.

[sonick909]

software scopes are great because of the basically unlimited buffer, and the high resolution speeds. I still have an outboard oscope , but if you ever want to add a logic analyzer to your setup, I highly recommend the intronix logicport.

I'm still shopping software oscopes myself, my old scope is heavy, needs calibration, etc and I can't afford a new outboard with the same capabilities as a pc scope.

[The Real MC]

Just be careful - there are some software 'scopes that are NOT suited for measurements. The aforementioned link to the NwAvGuy is an interesting read.

[S2udio]

Originally Posted by ._.

If you want a real scope that is useful its probably going to cost you 10-100k!!

Hate to disagree there M8 but thats absolute bollox.....

400-800 ($£e) will get you a good working scope for general Audio work,most reconditioned and calibrated.
Dual trace is usually a min...quad nice but not essential

For A Softscope....as above PICOSocpe


I still prefer them both


.......Digital/critical measurements...Pico.
Analogue faultfinding ..dual trace 20MHz Analogue CRT vintage

[robertshaw]

Originally Posted by vince @ speck

I would recommend a regular lab-type scope. Something like this:

Tektronic 2246A Oscilloscope with cart | eBay

4 inputs, displays voltage and time measurements. I would also invest in good probes

thanks Vince 400 doesn't seem bad

[robertshaw]

Originally Posted by The Real MC

there are some software 'scopes that are NOT suited for measurements. T

I was afraid of that

[robertshaw]

Originally Posted by ._.

the big question I see is: what are you trying to measure??

In a lot of stuff today such as preamps, power-amps and such you want to know THD and noise, those are major parts of gear that sound good. Knowing this, and be able to measure this is important. There is no need to measure stuff if it doesn't tell you anyhting useful. an 8 bit scope can tell you if you designed something very wrong. but it can't tell you more than that, it can't quantify how good or bad something is if its working "properly", you can't see if you get more or less noise doing x or y.

All this you can forget with a 8 bit scope, the noise floor is at -45dB or so. And even the shittiest worst sounding crap you'll ever find is better than this, you can't measure it at all with a 8 bit scope. Most things have noise floors that is -100dB below.

If you want a real scope that is useful its probably going to cost you 10-100k!! Then you can just as well get a Prism dScope audio analyzer for 5-6k, and it will do much much more. The picoscope has a bandwidth of only 5mhz but thats ok since you are construction things for up to 20khz but it has 16 bit resolution and 20 if you do something special to it.

Why spend 10k on a scope that can tell you what happens at 500mhz when your info is at 20khz?? And still only 8 bit (totally useless)??

I'm not saying the picoscope is that much better since its totally bordeline if you can measure something valuable with at all considering what you are aiming for in analog gear.

If you are designing a synth one of those 8 bit scopes can be useful, to make sure its working properly, to some degree at least. Otherwise these are shit scopes, they are not made for audio at all. The hint is: they are speced at 100-200mhz 8 bit, this is totally useless for audio especially since you give up resolution and noise, they are made for shit that runs at 200mhz!!! Car data busses and whatever. When designing a synth you can just as well get the cheapest picoscope for like 250 and it will be just as useful for that thing, since its just as bad as all other 8 bit scopes, since its 8 bit.

The relatively cheap 16 bit picoscope can at least quantify something, if you build fairly bad gear that is.

There is a reason a real audio analyzer cost 6k, because that what it costs to get somethning useful.

Here is some info on gear you need NwAvGuy: Testing Methods

My recommendation is to read up on these things first, find out what you want to measure, and find out what the gear can do before you buy anything.

And if you don't want to pay big bucks then you might as well just buy the best gear there is and the cheapest possible scope (beacuase it doesn't matter), you will still come out on top both regarding the quality of the gear/sound you have and money in the pocket over the long run (your whole life).

Just a thought.. don't want to offend anyone but this is the way it seems to work, unless you plan to build really (really!) shitty gear which you have no intention of being able to test and evaluate in any meaningful way anyway.

And just to clarify, I want to build my own gear too, I did my homework, and now I know its better for me to just buy good shit instead and be happy, and spend my time finding what the good shit is. Or 6k and a degree..

good info great link in there
"bad testing is worse than no testing"

interesting

[tINY]

Originally Posted by ._.

... an 8 bit scope can tell you if you designed something very wrong. but it can't tell you more than that ... with a 8 bit scope, the noise floor is at -45dB or so....Most things have noise floors that is -100dB below.
...

Are you assuming that a 1GS/S, 8 bit converter can only resolve 45dB of dynamic range at 100kHz???

If so, you really need to read up on delta/sigma converters, oversampling, and noise shaping.

Consider SACD....




-tINY

[tINY]

Originally Posted by robertshaw

thx tINY

I'm curious why are scopes still so expensive in this age of inexpensive ICs?

Well, four channels flat to 200MHz with excellent DC accuracy, low noise, self-calibration and good self-protection isn't cheap to implement. Most people don't find the price that high if they need good measurement capability. And other people who can live without some of these features want specialized instruments...


-tINY