What type of solder for...?

[666666]

Sorry guys, I know that this question has likely been answered many times, but yet I could not find the answer here after much searching. I did read a few articles online, but found nothing that I felt was 100% conclusive.

Very simply, I need to solder up some mic cables and speaker cables etc. I'm using high-grade cable and connectors, I want to do it right and yield the best results possible. In some cases I'll be using 12-gauge stranded copper wire (or smaller).

I'd like to know exactly what type of solder is recommended for the greatest degree of conductivity / best audio path.

A few articles suggested that it's good to get solder with silver in it. Radio Shack has 62/36/2 (2% silver), but it seems they only have this in a very small gauge. Then I believe they also have a "lead free" 96/4 (96% tin, 4% silver). Is this what I want? Or, is there a type / brand you'd recommend that can be ordered online?

I've also read that the composition of solder will also effect it's general behavior in terms of amount of heat needed to melt it, how fast it solidifies, how it flows etc. It's most important to me to achieve the best connections possible, but at the same time, I'm hoping that whatever solder is "best" to use is also not the most difficult one to use since I am not a wizard when it comes to soldering. But... lay it on me, let me know please.

I'd greatly appreciate a definitive answer on this so I can start soldering!

Thanks!!!

[Rick Sutton]

I've always used the old standby: Kester "44" 60/40 rosin core lead solder. Works great. Tried solder with some silver, works fine too (leaded).
Brian Roth is a GS member with real soldering knowledge. Based on his advice I recently stocked up on Kester "eutectic" solder and now have a lifetime supply!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/KESTER-44-Ro...#ht_3983wt_182
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kester-245-N...ht_2091wt_1165

[dualflip]

Originally Posted by Rick Sutton

I've always used the old standby: Kester "44" 60/40 rosin core lead solder. Works great. Tried solder with some silver, works fine too (leaded).
Brian Roth is a GS member with real soldering knowledge. Based on his advice I stocked up on Kester "eutectic" solder and now have a lifetime supply!

KESTER "44" Rosin Core Solder 60 40 1 lb. 0.040 dia PB | eBay

Believe everything Bri says, he rocks!

[brianroth]

Gee guys....I'm embarrassed! I've used 63/37 eutectic solder since the mid 1970's when I was introduced to it at the Crown amplifier "school". Kester "44' rosin is OK, but it tends to leave some brown residue. I've been using Kester's "245" "no clean" rosin version which leaves less residue, but isn't as good as "44" if the metal connections are oxidized. I prefer the 0.031" diameter wire. Looking at a roll here, that "no clean" part number is: 24-6337--8800.

Shop around carefully, as there are wide variations in pricing. I bought my most recent roll from a small online supplier who's price was maybe 1/2 what Mouser was charging.

I also know Jim Williams prefers some more exotic alloys, which he says sound better. I have no opinion on that aspect, so perhaps Jim will chime in here.

Best,

Bri

[Dan Kennedy]

I like the 63/37 for clean work, regular ol' 44 for repair work, as Brian says
it is a little more active and works on metal connections that aren't bright and shiny new.

Most work around here starts with aqueous fluxed solders, lead and lead free, and they're a whole different ball game, and I would recommend against them
for casual users. Cleaning is vital when using these, or you will have a piece of junk in the near future.

If you're in the US, get leaded solder, that ROHS crap is for the birds unless you just love headaches.

[dualflip]

Originally Posted by Dan Kennedy

If you're in the US, get leaded solder, that ROHS crap is for the birds unless you just love headaches.

LMAO! thanks for that, very true!

[Ike Zimbel]

+1 on Kester 245. I have been using it for at least 10 years. Back in the 80's I was using Ersin "X-Ersin" multi-core, no-clean solder. I've never bothered to check if it's still available, but I do have a 4-way active crossover in the shop that I built with it in 1983. Last I looked, it still worked and the boards were clean and in good shape.
best,
Ike

[666666]

I greatly appreciate the helpful replies. Thanks!

Also, I did recently find a bunch of old threads on this same subject. Originally I had searched terms like "recommended solder" etc, but of course such terms are way too broad and yielded 80,000 unrelated threads. But, after reading this new thread, I got wise and searched "kester 44" and that brought up all the old threads specific to this subject.

I'm a little confused about one thing. It seems that a lot of folks like the "63/37 eutectic". And a lot prefer "Kester 44". It seems that some refer to "Kester 44" as something different than "63/37 eutectic". But, I see that Kester makes a "44" solder that is "63/37 eutectic". See below link:

Kester 44 Rosin Core Solder 63/37 .031" 1 lb. Spool

I will assume that I can't go wrong with "Kester 44, 63/37 eutectic" as in the above link. Shall I just get this?

From everything I've read here so far, it would seem that this is a general safe bet, at least for me. Again, I am not highly experienced when it comes to soldering so I'm indeed a bit nervous about trying to deal with any "exotic" solders that contain a lot of silver etc. As many have pointed out, it makes sense that the quality of the solder JOINT is more important than the content of the solder itself, so in my case, I'm likely better off using a solder that will be a little easier to work with as opposed to struggling with a slightly "better" solder that is harder to work with.

Also, again, I'll be mostly soldering up mic and speaker cables, not really doing any circuit board work, so perhaps I don't really need the "no-clean" stuff. ?

Being that 63/37 is often recommended, it would make sense to me that a 62/36/2 (2% silver) would be even that much "better", since it is darned near the same as 63/37 except has a little silver in it which reportedly may "sound" a tad better. Though of course, a mere 2% is such a small percentage that I'd imagine it would not really have any observable effect. Thoughts?

I've soldered before and am able to do a decent job, but again, I'm not an "ace". I do have quite a few hours of experience, but certainly not "years" of experience. I'd prefer to not solder at this point if I didn't have to, but I wound up getting several large spools of excellent cable, and good connectors too, at an incredible deal, plus I do need a lot of custom sized cables anyway, so it only makes sense for me to solder all this stuff up. I guess if I had no idea how to solder at all I'd farm out the solder work, but, it's one of those things where I AM able to do it, I have the tools, I have a workbench etc, so I'd feel like a sissy if I didn't a least give it a shot. At the same time I want my cables to be top-notch to properly compliment the high-end gear I'll be using etc.

I greatly appreciate the help, thanks!!!

[Altitude909]

Originally Posted by 666666

..

Being that 63/37 is often recommended, it would make sense to me that a 62/36/2 (2% silver) would be even that much "better", since it is darned near the same as 63/37 except has a little silver in it which reportedly may "sound" a tad better. Though of course, a mere 2% is such a small percentage that I'd imagine it would not really have any observable effect. Thoughts?..

It will only sound better if you use balsa wood knobs that absorb the micro vibrations caused by flux in earths magnetosphere that will otherwise get picked up by your device.

The real trick to doing up stranded cable with connectors is getting a good liquid flux. I use Superior #30 (#325 would be better since you wont need to clean it off). Just dip it, and tin with solder. Makes life much easier since it will tame even the most solder resistant copper wire, if you have ever tried to resolder some headphone leads, you know what I am talking about

http://www.superiorflux.com/elec_tinning.html

The other thing I find really useful is adhesive backed head shrink. It has a hot melt glue on the inside which will lock the wires in place under the connector boot (I put it over the leads) and does a good job at strain relieving against twisting

[Rick Sutton]

Originally Posted by 666666

near the same as 63/37 except has a little silver in it which reportedly may "sound" a tad better. Though of course, a mere 2% is such a small percentage that I'd imagine it would not really have any observable effect. Thoughts?

I've used standard 44, eutectic, and silver bearing solder for over 40 years on thousands of connections and I've never heard a difference between them.

[newdigitaluser]

Originally Posted by 666666

Sorry guys, I know that this question has likely been answered many times, but yet I could not find the answer here after much searching. I did read a few articles online, but found nothing that I felt was 100% conclusive.

Very simply, I need to solder up some mic cables and speaker cables etc. I'm using high-grade cable and connectors, I want to do it right and yield the best results possible. In some cases I'll be using 12-gauge stranded copper wire (or smaller).

I'd like to know exactly what type of solder is recommended for the greatest degree of conductivity / best audio path.

A few articles suggested that it's good to get solder with silver in it. Radio Shack has 62/36/2 (2% silver), but it seems they only have this in a very small gauge. Then I believe they also have a "lead free" 96/4 (96% tin, 4% silver). Is this what I want? Or, is there a type / brand you'd recommend that can be ordered online?

I've also read that the composition of solder will also effect it's general behavior in terms of amount of heat needed to melt it, how fast it solidifies, how it flows etc. It's most important to me to achieve the best connections possible, but at the same time, I'm hoping that whatever solder is "best" to use is also not the most difficult one to use since I am not a wizard when it comes to soldering. But... lay it on me, let me know please.

I'd greatly appreciate a definitive answer on this so I can start soldering!

Thanks!!!

60 40 lead tin is the go to solder

silver solder is not for DIY types
best left to industrial shops

[Ike Zimbel]

Wasn't "The Eutectics" Annie Lennox's old band?

(sorry, I got through almost the whole year without posting anything like this)

Meanwhile back on topic...yes 44 or 245 will work fine for what you need to do.
Both make smoke that you shouldn't be breathing or getting in your eyes...it's just different smoke. Check out the MSDS sheets for both before ordering. Get a fume vent for your work bench.
best,
Ike

[666666]

Originally Posted by Altitude909

It will only sound better if you use balsa wood knobs that absorb the micro vibrations caused by flux in earths magnetosphere that will get picked up by you device.

That's what I figured.

But, I am one of those guys that does hear clear differences in cable types. Not to get into a big cable discussion, but my studio partner and I had conducted extensive blind listening tests with assorted cables once and we could pic out certain cables every time. So I don't think it's just a myth that cables can have different sonic properties.

This is why I did not automatically rule out that different solders might have different sonic properties as well. I don't like to assume anything, as silly as the initial notion might be.

Of course it does make sense that a 20' length of cable may very well have a greater effect on the audio than a few tiny little solder joints (assuming the joints are done well).

Having said all this, I will note that I have soldered up some cables and other things in the past with whatever solder I had laying around (likely a common 60/40 rosin, probably Radio Shack or whatever) and have no good reason to believe that any useful degree of audio quality is being "lost" within those items. So, in that regard, for me, it's really a non-issue.

But, I'm just curious to hear all thoughts and opinions before I spend days worth of time soldering things up.

So again, it would seem to me, based on all the info presented, that for my mic and speaker cables, the "Kester 44, 63/37" (as in the link I had added) is probably the best choice (easiest to use, good for audio) for what I am doing. If anyone disagrees, please let me know.

Thanks again!!!

[Jim Williams]

Make a few thousand solder joints in an analog console and you will hear the difference.

I use 4 types of solder here:

Ersyn Multi-Core 60/40 tin lead, used for older gear that used lead and mostly heavy power related circuits where you need to pour it on. The 5 core flux wets better than Kester.

Kester 48, 96/3/1, 3% silver with some copper. Sounds pretty good, wets well, looks dull. Used for RoHS work.

Ersyn Multi-core SN/62, 2% silver, wets great, flows better than Kester, sounds good too. Really good for rework as that solder flows better than most.

WBT/Parts Express 4% silver, tin/lead. This is the better sounding stuff, used for critical joints like mic capsules, etc. My entire studio is soldered with silver solder with mostly silver wire too. Yes, it makes a difference. Wire your entire room and solder every joint and tell me it doesn't. If you haven't, shut up and try it.

I prefer better wetting than any 'no clean' fomulations. If you wash the flux off (you should) it doesn't matter.

[MichaelAngelo]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

Make a few thousand solder joints in an analog console and you will hear the difference.

I use 4 types of solder here:

Ersyn Multi-Core 60/40 tin lead, used for older gear that used lead and mostly heavy power related circuits where you need to pour it on. The 5 core flux wets better than Kester.

Kester 48, 96/3/1, 3% silver with some copper. Sounds pretty good, wets well, looks dull. Used for RoHS work.

Ersyn Multi-core SN/62, 2% silver, wets great, flows better than Kester, sounds good too. Really good for rework as that solder flows better than most.

WBT/Parts Express 4% silver, tin/lead. This is the better sounding stuff, used for critical joints like mic capsules, etc. My entire studio is soldered with silver solder with mostly silver wire too. Yes, it makes a difference. Wire your entire room and solder every joint and tell me it doesn't. If you haven't, shut up and try it.

I prefer better wetting than any 'no clean' fomulations. If you wash the flux off (you should) it doesn't matter.

I have much expercience redoing solder connections with high end interconnects and I must say 2-4% silver solder DEFINITELY makes a improvement in the sound.. Actually when I did it I was so impressed I did all my cables I use for mastering...WBT is good.. but honestly radio shack silver solder is great!

[666666]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

...Make a few thousand solder joints in an analog console and you will hear the difference....

Good point, it surely makes sense that if you take a miniscule, nearly undetectable effect and multiply it over a thousand times, the effect may become clearly observable.

But, I might theorize that it's an "all or none" kind of thing.

Like, you either wire up everything in the chain with silver (and achieve a small, detectable benefit)... OR, if say half your connections are already non-silver, at that point doing the rest with silver may not achieve a benefit detectable enough to make it worthwhile. The "weak link" in the chain (50%+ non-silver solder connections) will "cancel out" the small gain achieved by the silver solder you add to the chain. Or, another way to look at it, the very high frequencies that the silver solder allows to pass get taken away by the non-silver solder in the path. Again, just a general speculation in the name of trying to determine if and when silver solder is worthwhile in a given situation.

All very interesting.

[666666]

So then, what are the downsides to using silver solder (such as the WBT or even Radio Shack silver solder)?

Ok, the silver stuff is a bit more expensive. This is not an issue for me since, in the grand scheme of things, I will not be doing that much soldering. I will be soldering up one big batch of cables, but after that, I may not solder again for a very long time. It's not like I do this for a living and need to watch my monthly expenses. So cost is not an issue.

Melting point... I've read that silver solder requires greater heat, and of course, especially for someone who does not have a lot of soldering experience, having to work with greater heat makes things a bit more tricky, chances are higher of melting things that you don't want to melt etc... But....

In your opinion, in general, how much more "difficult" is it to work with silver solder (like the WBT for instance) than standard Kester 63/37? Are we talking a big difference here that requires jedi skills, or is it just a matter of an extra second or two of contact with the iron?

[Bill Way]

I've been using Wonder Solder (the old version) for a long time. I don't see any big difference in temp requirements. You do need a metal sponge tip cleaner, which are easy to get and last forever, as a damp sponge will react with the solder and eat away your tips fast.

WW

[666666]

Originally Posted by Bill Way

...You do need a metal sponge tip cleaner, which are easy to get and last forever, as a damp sponge will react with the solder and eat away your tips fast...

Thanks! You mean like this?....

Hakko Tip Cleaner, 599B-02

[dcollins]

Originally Posted by 666666

So again, it would seem to me, based on all the info presented, that for my mic and speaker cables, the "Kester 44, 63/37" (as in the link I had added) is probably the best choice (easiest to use, good for audio) for what I am doing. If anyone disagrees, please let me know.

If you are soldering to a Silver connector you should use Silver-bearing solder to prevent embrittlement. Other than the cost, there is no reason not to use the 2% alloy.

Imagine doing a A/B test where the only difference in the whole, entire, console mod was the type of solder used. It's pretty impressive to go to such lengths.


DC

[dcollins]

Originally Posted by Frank_Case

Yes you hit on it correctly. The RS 4% silver lead-free solder works well and is as good as solders costing many times more. And it comes in both thin and thick varieties. And it doesn't produce cold solder joints like some leadless solders I've used in the past. And it won't give you lead poisoning if you breath the fumes. And it is RoHS complient. Good stuff.

I believe the amount of Lead vaporized by soldering is miniscule, the rosin vapors are far worse and some people are very sensitive to them. A fan is recommended.

The number one thing is to always wash your hands after handling the solder, and don't put the end in your mouth.


DC

[Altitude909]

Originally Posted by dcollins

I believe the amount of Lead vaporized by soldering is miniscule

how about zero. Lead boils at 1750 deg C, soldering is done at around 350. There is no lead in the fumes, ever. Youre right about the fumes being nasty though, especially with the lead free stuff, very nasty


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[MrMegaEli]

I’ve used the radio shack 62/36/2 (2% silver) it works great

[dcollins]

Originally Posted by Frank_Case

That's not what OSHA's website says:

"Lead is used in the soldering process in the form of lead/silver filler metals. When heated, lead oxide fumes are formed. Excessive exposure to lead oxide fumes can result in lead poisoning. Symptoms include loss of appetite, indigestion, nausea, vomiting, constipation, headache, abdominal cramps, nervousness, and insomnia. Lead is absorbed through the mucous membranes of the lung, stomach, or intestines and then enters the bloodstream".

Breath deeply my friend and good luck.

The point is that at the temperature used for electrical soldering (not sweating pipes with a torch) the Lead is not vaporized.

A simple empirical view could also be considered: If you imagine all the soldering that some do in the course if a lifetime, if Lead was really getting into the air and into their systems, there would be three threads per day here on Lead poisoning.

I still want to hear about the blind A/B test between the console modded with normal solder and the unit done with a fancy alloy.

Also, some people pronounce it "soul-der;" what's up with that?


DC

[666666]

Side note regarding fumes:

I've seen these little "solder fume sucker" things, and in my opinion they really don't do anything.

If the goal is to "suck" the fumes away from your face, you need a very strong fan nearby, not just a little toy fan. As well, in my opinion, to do it right you need to pull the fumes OUT of your shop entirely and replace with fresh air, not just merely "filter" the air with a little charcoal filter (which likely loses its effectiveness very quickly anyway). I'm not necessarily an expert on this subject, but I've done a lot of experimenting with venting and air movement.

I just ordered a 2905 cfm exhaust fan (12" Flo Pro) that I plan on using as a temporary mobile exhaust fan, I'll hang it in front of my shop window when soldering, having it blow air OUT of the shop. Plan on making a shroud for it as well so it will very efficiently and effectively pull air out of the shop. I'll then of course keep another window open to allow fresh air in.

Then I plan on just placing a mid-sized, low rpm fan right on my bench, where I'm working, to blow (not suck) fumes away. That will be way more effective at moving the fumes AWAY from the "breathing zone". Of course the fumes then get blown around the shop, but this is not a problem when there's a 2905 cfm vent fan replacing / exchanging ALL the air in the entire shop every few minutes or whatever. Constant extracting of fumes and replenishing of fresh air. Cant beat that.

My initial thought was to place the 2905 cfm fan (or a tube leading from that fan) right near me, pulling fumes away, but in my situation, that would be harder to make happen due to certain logistics inside the shop.

Regardless of whether or not there's lead in the fumes etc, my general feeling is, better safe than sorry when it comes to ANY kind of fumes. Make sure you're replacing all the air in the shop constantly.

Last time I had to solder up a bunch of cables I actually set up a folding table OUTSIDE in my yard and placed a fan nearby, blowing the fumes away from my face. I much prefer soldering outside, can't beat that... but, looks like I'll need to do some soldering now before the winter is over, too cold outside, so... I look forward to the arrival of my new exhaust fan.

Here's the fan (link below) in case anyone is interested. I could have gotten a less expensive fan and did a permanent install in the shop, but I like the versatility of this Flo Pro fan, it can be taken anywhere for any use... good tool to have around the shop for assorted purposes. A contractor friend of mine has one, the thing works really well. If he's sanding sheetrock or sawing wood etc inside a room, he'll place this fan blowing out a window, the dust in the room disappears almost immediately, it's VERY effective. 2905 cfm is serious air movement. (For comparison, the average bathroom ceiling vent fan is rated at about 50 or 80 cfm).

And if 2905 cfm is too much cfm for your situation (like if your shop is super small), the fan has two speeds, just run it on the slower speed (which is probably about half the rated cfm). They also make a smaller, 8 inch version as well, 1575 cfm, cheaper too.

FlowPro Utility Blower — 12", 2905 CFM, Model# 39012

[Altitude909]

Originally Posted by Frank_Case

And please explain this to me: Why does a certain solder manufacturer of standard 60/40 solder have the following warning plastered on their solder...

"WARNING: THIS PRODUCT CONTAINS LEAD AND MAY CONTAIN OTHER TOXIC METALS OR CHEMICALS. Ingestion or inhalation of fumes or particles released through processing could cause lead poisoning or cancer. Absorption of lead is known to cause birth defects and other reproductive harm and may result for example in damage to the blood and neurological systems. Use only with adequate ventilation. Use NIOSH approved respiratory protection when necessary. Wash thoroughly before eating, drinking or smoking. Not for use in portable water service systems."

Maybe you should contact them and tell them that they have it all wrong.

Where did i dispute anything other than the statement that lead vaporizes when melted? Yes, lead is toxic, so are the fumes and by products when it is soldered but the assertion that there is vaporized lead in the fumes is plain wrong. There is a BIG difference between melting and ice cube and and boiling water.

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[Radardoug]

I've been using lead solder every day for 50 years. I recently suggested to my doctor that he test my blood for lead, bearing this use in mind. There was no lead in my blood. But I try not to eat too much!

[dcollins]

Originally Posted by Frank_Case

You will find no difference in sound.

Surely you are not suggesting some members would make a wholly unsupportable claim about audibility?


DC

[Jim Williams]

Originally Posted by Frank_Case

You will find no difference in sound.

Have you done this and compared? It has been done here. The results prove themselves. Others here confirm the sonic differences. Customers are happy.

It's not an end all, it's just another step in improving audio quality. It's all the little stuff that adds up. Silver solder, silver wire, it's all good, if you can pay the admission price.

As I've said before, this is the last thing you should be concerned with. It's important only if everything else in the system is first rate. Once you have fixed up the analog audio path, power supplies, amps, caps, etc, the solder and the wire is all that's left.

For fun, take a 10 foot run of your Kester 37/63 and run it to your monitors.

Sounds great, ehh?

[housegezeichnet]

fluitin 1532 with lead no-clean