Why isn't drum-tuning an exact science?

[mattvdh]

I've been playing drums for a long time now and I've always been fascinated with how many different opinions and ideas there are regarding drum tuning. For example: pleating, muffling, pitch are all often subjective but why is this--why is drum tuning such an open ended topic? When you tune the guitar or bass it's very straight forward, but most rock drummers (and drummers in general) aren't at all concerned about pitch in regard to the rest of the bands tuning.

If you were to ask most drummers what pitch they tune their front/back heads to, they wouldn't be able to tell you, but shouldn't there be standardize rules for tuning? For example, if a rock band tunes to E#, then the drummer should stay within that key right (when tuning)?

I've seen a ton of videos and articles on tuning, and they basically just reiterate how you want equal tension and no undertones, but they rarely talk about pitch--shouldn't proper pitch and tuning be as important as any other instrument? You often read a lot of 'keep turning/tuning it until it sounds right' or 'tighten it until it's firm but not tight or any ripples' etc, 'have fun experimenting' and all this open ended advice. It's very strange that tuning advice is so loose and open, it should be precisely in tune like any other instrument and the player should be strict about keeping it in tune.

I think that professional big band/orchestra drummers and composers think in these terms but you don't hear very many rock drummers talking about keeping their drums in perfect pitch/key. They seem to hear the drums as an 'fx' and not an instrument that produces a note. Obviously some drummers prefer a more dead/flat/muffled sound while others prefer a wide open crack, but staying in proper tune should be standard and it's rarely spoken of for some reason.

[steveschizoid]

No matter how you tune your guitars, you can still play in any key signature, and, for that matter, you can change from one key signature to any other at any point in a song.

Drums can't do that.

Of course, it would be cool if drummers actually thought about this sort of stuff. Especially in the studio where you can adapt the tuning to each song.

But that can be problematic as well, because new heads (which I prefer when it comes to recording) don't hold their tuning very well, and most rock drummers are not up for checking their tuning between each take....

When dealing with drummers I've found it's best to give up a little perfectionism and appreciate whatever they throw at me.

[mattvdh]

If you google drum tuning you'll get hundreds of pages and articles talking about all kinds of techniques but I've really only seen one video with Bob Gatzen where pitch is discussed.

Bob Gatzen - Snare Drum Tuning - YouTube

[mattvdh]

Originally Posted by steveschizoid

No matter how you tune your guitars, you can still play in any key signature, and, for that matter, you can change from one key signature to any other at any point in a song.

Drums can't do that.

Of course, it would be cool if drummers actually thought about this sort of stuff. Especially in the studio where you can adapt the tuning to each song.

But that can be problematic as well, because new heads (which I prefer when it comes to recording) don't hold their tuning very well, and most rock drummers are not up for checking their tuning between each take....

When dealing with drummers I've found it's best to give up a little perfectionism and appreciate whatever they throw at me.

No, I'm not saying jumping from key sig. to key sig., maybe electronic drums could do that (which would be a neat idea), but that's not exactly my point. I just mean, why isn't there a standard tuning for drums like there is a standard tuning for guitar or bass? A standard guitar tuning is EADGBE, but why doesn't drums follow a similar tuning structure or have a standard for pitch/tuning? like snare: A# top, Aflat bottom, kick: E# front, E flat outside etc etc.

[audiotech]

My dad taught me to tune drums more than fifty years ago and nothing was ever said to try to tune to a specific note. What I do though is tune to the specific shell for the most resonance and sustain from any given diameter. This way I'm not trying to pitch the drum away from their, sometimes, limited sweet spot. The sounds coming from the drums are a bit affected by the shell material and manufacturing itself, then the types of heads the drummer feels that can express his sound and playing abilities and lastly and most importantly the drummers ability to effectively tune his drums. Keeping both heads on a drum exactly in-tune with themselves is of paramount importance, much more than the specific note that is emanating. Another reason specific notes a lot of times don't readily work is if you're trying to achieve accurate pitch placement of each drum in the kit. I have three, seven piece kits and sometimes it takes a little time getting this correct. One other thing is, I for one never sit behind drums without tweaking them just a bit to get them to sound their best. This usually only takes a minute or two, but it's well worth it.

Sometimes I wish it would be as easy as clipping a tuner on a shell and watching a note pop up, but in my opinion, there is nothing better than a trained ear for this purpose.

Dennis

[effitall]

Check out the Resotune.

https://www.resotune.com/

I have one. It's cool. It doesn't replace having to know how to work with drums...You must have some sense of drum tuning in order to get started with it. It does do what it claims to do.

John Roberts is a forum member here and he might be able to share some thoughts on the Resotune and also what's in store for the Rev 2 Resotune that he's working on.

You should probably think about the complexity of a drum in order to answer your question. If you take a 12" tom...You have 6-10 lugs (we'll split and say 8) and two heads. Assuming a perfectly round shell, a perfectly cut bearing edge, and a perfectly rigid and round hoop, you have two separate membranes with 16 different tension points that you have to move all at the same time/relationship to keep the drum in tune, "cleared," and in pitch.

I hope John chimes in here to maybe elaborate on his thoughts on drum tuning.

[effitall]

Dennis,

You bring up some really good points. I've spent plenty of years tuning drums and got pretty good at it. When I first got the Resotune, I tuned up a drum from scratch...Got it sounding pretty good. After I was content with the drum tuning/sound...I fired up the Resotune, tweaked what it told me to tweak, and was floored by how much fuller and fatter the drum sounded.

I agree that the most important aspect is making the drum sound good. That means tuning the heads to work together and then getting as even a tension as possibly across each head.

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

Talk to some of the symphony percussionists. They have insights that you can apply to modern music that most of us miss.

[JohnRoberts]

I could probably write a small book on this subject but won't. The simple answer for the specific question is it could be an exact science, but there are several factors about drums that make that difficult (so far).

#1, drums are not technically pitched instruments (with the exception of tympani), so drums do not make a single note, or even harmonics of a single note. The multiple notes are not harmonically related so which note do you tune to?

#2, the pitch is not even the hardest part. Even if there was agreement or some convention about which pitch to tune, making all the different lugs agree is far harder since the lugs interact with each other, and the two heads interact.

#3, for two head drums, the two head tensions (often tuned to different tensions) interact with each other to alter the total sound signature of attack, sustain, and decay. So there are many subtly different similar tunings.

#4, besides pitch there are drum tuning considerations regarding stick feel based on head tension, and sweet spots or regions for a given shell diameter and depth. So actual note for a given head tension will also depend on head thickness (mass), and notes that a particular drum likes will depend on shell design and more.

========
In simple terms I have developed a way to measure the lug tuning of each lug one at a time, so it becomes a relatively simple matter to measure and adjust all the lugs to be the same... How isn't secret but protected by my US Patent # 6,925,880 .

While drums do not have simple single note pitches, you can fully characterize the tuning of a drum by noting the lowest whole drum resonance (the thud sound when struck dead center), and the first overtone (next higher pitch) of top and bottom heads, often detuned from each other to slightly different notes. So with these three notes per drum one could document the tuning of any kit. Actually just the first overtone pitch of top and bottom head is adequate to uniquely define the drum tune since the lower fundamental can only be one note for a given combination of the other two.

I do not give specific tuning advice, which I consider subjective and a matter of personal taste. I just provide a tool, to help clear drumheads (make lugs the same for purest sound), and repeatable, so you can get back to a good tuning you have enjoyed before. In principle it is possible to measure and publish the tuning of drums on popular recordings, while I don't consider that the highest and best use of my technology.

We are still in the early days of scientific drum tuning and I am close to producing my second generation product which will be a bunch cheaper and better than my first generation product, but still not as cheap as it needs to be to become a mass market product that every drummer owns and uses. This tuner technology will never be as cheap as a $10 guitar tuner (because it;s harder to do), but we don't have to operate in the dark now, and it will get cheaper in the future.

JR

PS: My new model is not available yet so I'd rather not get specific about improvements and price, but I hope to be in full production by jan 2012, which is not that far away so I need to get back to work. My long term goal is to keep reducing the price, and this is just my first major price cut. It cost money to tool up to reduce costs.

[mattvdh]

Originally Posted by effitall

Check out the Resotune.

https://www.resotune.com/

I have one. It's cool. It doesn't replace having to know how to work with drums...You must have some sense of drum tuning in order to get started with it. It does do what it claims to do.

John Roberts is a forum member here and he might be able to share some thoughts on the Resotune and also what's in store for the Rev 2 Resotune that he's working on.

You should probably think about the complexity of a drum in order to answer your question. If you take a 12" tom...You have 6-10 lugs (we'll split and say 8) and two heads. Assuming a perfectly round shell, a perfectly cut bearing edge, and a perfectly rigid and round hoop, you have two separate membranes with 16 different tension points that you have to move all at the same time/relationship to keep the drum in tune, "cleared," and in pitch.

I hope John chimes in here to maybe elaborate on his thoughts on drum tuning.

$350?? yikes

[mattvdh]

[QUOTE=JohnRoberts;7250414]I could probably write a small book on this subject but won't. The simple answer for the specific question is it could be an exact science, but there are several factors about drums that make that difficult (so far).

#1, drums are not technically pitched instruments (with the exception of tympani), so drums do not make a single note, or even harmonics of a single note. The multiple notes are not harmonically related so which note do you tune to?


Well according to Bob Gatzen, drums are a pitched instrument and technically the top head should harmonize with lower head if you've got your pitches correct, it just happens so quickly that it can be hard to discern a note/harmony. If tympani's are considered a pitched instrument, then why not rock drums--it's essentially the same thing, minus the tuning pedal.

Neat product...A bit steep for me though.

[effitall]

Well...yeah...it's not cheap. Neither is a real strobotuner. To my knowledge it's the first and only device of its kind so it's bound to be a little costly. I took the chance on it and ordered and found it to be a good tool to help me get the most out of whatever crap kit rolled through the door.

As John mentioned in his post, the V2 should be out in January and should come in at a lower price point than the V1 despite having some refinements.

[mattvdh]

Originally Posted by audiotech

My dad taught me to tune drums more than fifty years ago and nothing was ever said to try to tune to a specific note. What I do though is tune to the specific shell for the most resonance and sustain from any given diameter. This way I'm not trying to pitch the drum away from their, sometimes, limited sweet spot. The sounds coming from the drums are a bit affected by the shell material and manufacturing itself, then the types of heads the drummer feels that can express his sound and playing abilities and lastly and most importantly the drummers ability to effectively tune his drums. Keeping both heads on a drum exactly in-tune with themselves is of paramount importance, much more than the specific note that is emanating. Another reason specific notes a lot of times don't readily work is if you're trying to achieve accurate pitch placement of each drum in the kit. I have three, seven piece kits and sometimes it takes a little time getting this correct. One other thing is, I for one never sit behind drums without tweaking them just a bit to get them to sound their best. This usually only takes a minute or two, but it's well worth it.

Sometimes I wish it would be as easy as clipping a tuner on a shell and watching a note pop up, but in my opinion, there is nothing better than a trained ear for this purpose.

Dennis

I don't quite follow..staying 'in tune' means tuning to a specific pitch and keeping it there--it's not a term used to describe equal tension.

Watch that Bob Gatzen video, he uses a tuner and hum's along.

[effitall]

Hey Matt,

Not to point out the obvious...But the construction of tympani and trap drums are way different and lend themselves to different characteristics. One of the most notable differences is in the tension adjustments of the drum. A tympani is perhaps closer to a roto-tom than a "normal" drum. In a roto-tom, you clear the head by tweaking the lugs...Then you adjust the pitch by turning the assembly left/right to decrease/increase the pitch.

Unfortunately, for a "normal" drum...The same mechanism that "clears" the head is used to "pitch" the drum too. It's a bad combination that is inherently filled with inaccuracy. That's a large part of what makes drum tuning so difficult.

Ideally you'd have two different mechanisms at play on the heads, one for clearing and the other for tuning.

[JohnRoberts]

[QUOTE=mattvdh;7250521]

Originally Posted by JohnRoberts

I could probably write a small book on this subject but won't. The simple answer for the specific question is it could be an exact science, but there are several factors about drums that make that difficult (so far).

#1, drums are not technically pitched instruments (with the exception of tympani), so drums do not make a single note, or even harmonics of a single note. The multiple notes are not harmonically related so which note do you tune to?


Well according to Bob Gatzen, drums are a pitched instrument and technically the top head should harmonize with lower head if you've got your pitches correct, it just happens so quickly that it can be hard to discern a note/harmony. If tympani's are considered a pitched instrument, then why not rock drums--it's essentially the same thing, minus the tuning pedal.

Neat product...A bit steep for me though.

Not to argue with a drum tuning guru (there are many out there), but I am just stating a fact. If you are seriously interested I have more information about how drums behave on my website. I would advise reading Rossing's technical book about percussion instruments if you want TMI about drums.

Simply stated drums not only have multiple resonant series, but these series include overtones that are not musically related (not simple harmonics), So the lowest pitch will be one note, the next higher a different note, and so on. The dominant note you hear can depend where on the head you strike (center of the drumhead excites the lowest fundamental note), off center higher overtones. So you can tune any one of these to be on a note, but the others won't be.

I generally don't like to give voicing advice, but when tuning one of these resonances to be on a note, you need to consider when you want the drum to make this note based on how your strike the drumhead (center strikes require tuning one resonance, off center strikes others).

--------
Regarding tympani being pitched instruments, the closed rounded back steers the drum resonances to make two closely spaced low resonances that are even multiples of a phantom lower fundamental note. So it is a psycho-acoustic phenomenon, that we perceive a single note from tympani and for chuckles, the tympani does not even make the very low note we think we hear. We hear two apparent harmonics and ASSume the lower note must be there. This is how tympani appear to make much lower notes than physically possible for their size.

There are other subtle differences with one headed open back concert toms, where the absence of a second (bottom) head, means the ratio between fundamental and overtone series is more strictly defined (by drumhead physics) than two headed drums where both heads interact, but still not harmonically related overtones. The concert toms will have a more consistent sound signature, for better or worse.

JR

[JohnRoberts]

Originally Posted by mattvdh

I don't quite follow..staying 'in tune' means tuning to a specific pitch and keeping it there--it's not a term used to describe equal tension.

Watch that Bob Gatzen video, he uses a tuner and hum's along.

I use the term "clearing" a head to describe adjusting the lugs to be in sympathy (or in tune) with each other. This sympathy or 'clear' condition can be reached for any given pitch or note, and sonically is best described as reducing all the numerous overtones to be as few as physically possible, instead of the chaotic noise made when every lug is tuned slightly differently each making slightly different overtones.

Tuning a drum is arguably a misnomer, since the heavy lifting is not getting to a specific note, but making all the lugs tuned exactly the same, whatever that tuning is. Mechanical tuning aids that measure lug torque or head deflection, are like tuning a guitar with a spring scale pulling on the strings to see how tight they are. Better than nothing but they don't account for real world mechanical variation in hardware, and rims, and....

My invention adresses the lug matching precision. Tuning to specific notes is trivial after that and falls out of the technology to do the harder work. Any simple pitch pipe or tuning fork can get you to a basic note.

JR

[Richard Black]

Because a drum head is a two-dimensional resonator, its eigentones are not harmonically related as are those of a one- or three-dimensional resonator (string, column of air). This makes the pitch rather vague, to an extent which can be increased or decreased according to drums design but never eliminated.

[enginefire]

all I know is that when i get a mixing project, and dial up a wicked drum sound, all tight and clear and what-have-you, and then drop in the bass only to find out that the drums are a 1/4 tone flat... I get REALLY annoyed because it makes everything sound like crap.

Drums ARE pitched instruments, at least as far as my ear perceives them. They must be tuned, preferably to a tone that resonates harmoniously with the rest of the instruments. I find that good drummers do this naturally, and keep their drums tuned in such a way that they just seem to fit and sound good on any song. Other drummers dont. They might keep time just as well, but they just dont hear the pitch.

when in doubt, tune the drums with the bass player! everything else will be fine.

[JohnRoberts]

The issue is not that drums don't make any notes, but that each drum makes multiple different notes depending on how/where struck, and only one of those multiple notes can be the one tuned to be on key. In my judgement the sonic character of typical 2 head drums is usually dominated by one of the two lowest notes, the fundamental or first overtone.

Obviously when you voice your kit you pick the ones that are important to your arrangement or style of play, to be the notes tuned on key. The other notes will land wherever they end up.


JR

[enginefire]

true, and our perception of the sound will be "in tune"... maybe there are just too many variables for drum tuning to be an exact science, and it becomes more of an art. Personally, i think that is a bit of a cop out, and mystifies what is otherwise a pretty cut and dry situation. a good musician will be able and willing to take the time to tune their instrument, a lesser musician may not have the ability to hear the shortcomings of their effort.

personally, i think the same applies to guitars and basses... if the musician has the knowledge and cares enough, he or she will take the time to adjust the bridge and saddles and neck, after selecting their favorite string gauge and tension, so that their whole instrument is in tune, and not so that just the open strings make the little line on the tuner go to the middle.

Musicianship! seems to have become a scarce thing these days.

[ears2thesky]

I have to agree with the concept of tuning to the resonant peak of the shell. I derive that pitch by rapping the shell with no heads installed and determining the fundamental pitch with a tuner. I write the pitch on the inner shell (with a pencil) for future reference, and tune the heads to the note.
That seems pretty scientific to me.

[JohnRoberts]

Originally Posted by enginefire

true, and our perception of the sound will be "in tune"... maybe there are just too many variables for drum tuning to be an exact science, and it becomes more of an art. Personally, i think that is a bit of a cop out, and mystifies what is otherwise a pretty cut and dry situation. a good musician will be able and willing to take the time to tune their instrument, a lesser musician may not have the ability to hear the shortcomings of their effort.

I make an important distinction between tuning heads to specific tensions or notes, (including matching the lugs to each other), which can be accomplished objectively and choosing what specific notes to tension those heads to, for best sound which is subjective and involves artistry.

We can use objective tools to help us accomplish subjective ends. Making music has always been a combination of the two that can complement each other.

JR

[enginefire]

absolutely, it is a fine line between the two that when drawn in the right place has great results. I think the really great artists do just that seemingly without effort, and the rest of us just try and keep up.

on a more technical level, do you think that the top skin affects more the pitch of the attack, and the bottom skin more the pitch of the sustain?

[JohnRoberts]

It's not quite as clean cut as that, but the top (batter) head is the one you strike so the one that makes the most sound, and the initial attack. The bottom (resonant) head basically resonates in sympathy with the the top head being struck and moving toward it, so the closer they are tuned to each other the more sympathetic vibration and probably longer sustain you get. When the resonant head is detuned sharp or flat from the batter that should pull the after ring sharp or flat from the attack. This is mainly talking about strikes off center and that series of resonances. Hitting the drumhead dead center will excite the fundamental note which is both heads moving together as one and the average tension of both heads, so both heads are always controlling the note pitch.

JR

[joeq]

I don't particularly fancy pitched drums in a rock setting. Too "polite", IMO.

I quickly tire of really "tuned" toms, and that is one the things that puts me off on most electronic kits, the overly melodic nature of the tom sounds

doom doom doom

a two headed drum is supposed to have an indefinite pitch. As JohnRoberts says, a lot of complicated stuff is going on that resists tuning stability. I will "use" pitch to tune the drum, but I don't expect it to "have" a pitch when I am finished!

Tympani and other single-headed drums sound great going for a pitch. But in a rock context, drums are essentially bursts of noise. The nature and character of that noise is FAR more important to the beat of the song than what specific "note" the drum is tuned to - even when that note can be determined which it often can not.

Personally, I like a drum to sound like a gunshot or an explosion, not a "bass with a lot of attack". Other people like really fat drums, or really dry drums, or really thuddy drums or really paper-y drums...

what 'pitch' is that tea-towel/wallet-on-the-snare drum at? No one can say even with a strobe. Besides, the pitch is not what's interesting about it. It's a "thwack" not a "do" a "fa". The combinations are endless, and that's what makes drums, drums

Even if you like it sounding tuned, even if you can get it into tune, even if you can get it to stay in tune for more than one song, any drum set that is truly tuned to one key will be out of tune for all songs not in that key.

Lucky for me I don't like it, I guess!

but staying in proper tune should be standard and it's rarely spoken of for some reason.

But what is 'proper tune'? Does it even exist? If you would be so kind as to list the pitches "required" for each drum...

[AKCSTUDIO]

Im excited about your new tuner John,as i have the 1st one of yours.

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by JohnRoberts

Regarding tympani being pitched instruments, the closed rounded back steers the drum resonances to make two closely spaced low resonances that are even multiples of a phantom lower fundamental note.

Those are all good posts John. I'll add that the closed back of a timpani also affects its radiation pattern, and in turn how it sounds in an audience or when picked up by a microphone. The sealed bottom prevents the back wave from canceling the top wave. I think that makes the radiation more omnidirectional?

--Ethan

[S2udio]

Originally Posted by JohnRoberts

We can use objective tools to help us accomplish subjective ends. Making music has always been a combination of the two that can complement each other.
JR

Poetry in motion JR
Mind if i use that quote as my signature ?!

[JohnRoberts]

Originally Posted by S2udio

Poetry in motion JR
Mind if i use that quote as my signature ?!

Be my guest.... On my business card it says " Advancing technology in the service of art" and that has been my guiding principle for years, to reduce impediments between musicians and the process of making music.
======

My current signature on another forum is "Tune it or don't play it". A little harsh, but I also believe that. it's not just about respecting the music and audience, but it just feels so much better to play a well tuned kit, (or instrument) so respect yourself.

Tuning drums will never be as simple tuning an ukelele, but it is getting easier. First i had to prove it could be assisted electronically. Now I need to get back to work at making it less expensive.

JR

[mattvdh]

Originally Posted by enginefire

when in doubt, tune the drums with the bass player! everything else will be fine.

Ya I've heard this before a few times, what exactly does this mean?