D.I.Y projects with MCI jh16 (1971-73)

[joumik]

hi all ,
i have just got (nearly been given) a MCI JH16 , 2" , the early version full of trannies ,
and i´m soon trying to get it work good , if possible ...
no tests yet but :
-transport should be working (it was the case before stocking , 5 years ago)
-excepting obvious caps ,it seems fine in general .
-it could be working very correctly , with alignement ...
of course i can´t be sure .

if all the reparations seem to difficult , long ... (i´m waiting for the molexes check ).
i´ll quit the restoration ...
i´m supposed to get some advices from a good studio owner , (he´s got one jh24 and a jh16 , and maintain them as new) ,during october ...
but , ...


in the case it´s , let´s say , too old ,
what could be done with these many trannies , parts ... ?
nice meterbridge , mic-pres , ... ?
could i use some audio cards as mic-pre´s , modifying some implantations,connections , ... ?

and ,
if by any chance , anyone could help me finding the schematics/manual ,in electronic format ...
i´m also looking for the schematics about pin implementation concerning the autolocator1 and the amphenol corresponding plugs on the beast (so that i will be able to check recs and plays without entirely re-soldering the cables that had been , just , cut . .
first , i´ll try to make it work ok ,

any ideas ?
i´ll post more photos in a few days ...
cheers !

[2N1305]

Originally Posted by joumik

hi all ,
i have just got (nearly been given) a MCI JH16 , 2" , the early version full of trannies ,
if all the reparations seem to difficult , long ... (i´m waiting for the molexes check ).
i´ll quit the restoration ...
...
what could be done with these many trannies , parts ... ?
nice meterbridge , mic-pres , ... ?
could i use some audio cards as mic-pre´s , modifying some

what could be done? RESTORE IT! You aren't telling us that some simple connectors which are "too hard to find" are stopping the restoration, no?
dites-moi sérieusement d'où vient cette machine...

Originally Posted by joumik

if by any chance , anyone could help me finding the schematics/manual ,in electronic format ...
i´m also looking for the schematics about pin implementation concerning the autolocator1 and the amphenol corresponding plugs on the beast (so that i will be able to check recs and plays without entirely re-soldering the cables that had been , just , cut . .
first , i´ll try to make it work ok ,

any ideas ?
i´ll post more photos in a few days ...
cheers !

Check Analog Rules!!! Pro-Audio Parts and Service for manuals, if he doesn't have them available to download, he will sell one.

I suggest you restore this machine, I mean if the transport was working as early as 5 years ago, then that's very encouraging...

[tele27]

Not to be discouraging but those earlier machines are wrought with problems. I tried restoring one and had problems with arcing on the traces, intermittent molex connectors, the relay switches just to name a few things. Trying to get the machine operating with any consistency at all was very frustrating. Add to that the scarcity of parts and the ones you can find like from Blevins Audio are expensive. I learned that the newer model MCI machines were easier to work on then those early beasts. After about $800 or more I threw in the towel. If you really want a 2" MCI machine get a hold of a guy in Nashville at studio Welcome to Studio 1979 Chris Mara. He I think used to work with Blevins and is very knowledgeable about the MCI machines. Personally I'd stay away from the earlier AC machines and save up for a refurbed later model, and save yourself a boatload of aggravation. Just my opinion.YMMV.

[joumik]

hi all
thanks for the answers ,
in fact you´re right mr germanium , i´m only thinking about restoring it ,
the fact is that i have read several times things like tele27 is describing ,
so , i´m just wondering ...
i´m also wondering if i should move the thread to the MCI forum ...
anyway , here are some shoots , i have some questions about things ,
for those who can tell me what is what , what has been replaced ...
don´t be afraid , i won´t try anything without schematics and manual ,
i´m just looking , wondering .
some components have been replaced , it seems to be a good job ...
transport react , but i only tested with my fingers , i have no 2" tape .
the light sensor works good , FFW seems to react ok , FRW reacts but without strenght , play doesn´t react at all , sometimes brakes work , ....
but i need a tape !

here are the logic cards
we can see (2nd photo) some black "ELEC TROL" components , i´ m wondering if it´s been replaced ...



here are 2 shoots of ICsockets , there aren´t many , and they are not red .
i´m supposed to clean this , right ?


here are 2 parts of the rep/rec card , the white components seem to have been changed



as you can see , i need the schematics ....
and a tape ,
any remark ?
thanks
matthieu

[tele27]

Originally Posted by joumik

hi all
thanks for the answers ,
in fact you´re right mr germanium , i´m only thinking about restoring it ,
the fact is that i have read several times things like tele27 is describing ,
so , i´m just wondering ...
i´m also wondering if i should move the thread to the MCI forum ...
anyway , here are some shoots , i have some questions about things ,
for those who can tell me what is what , what has been replaced ...
don´t be afraid , i won´t try anything without schematics and manual ,
i´m just looking , wondering .
some components have been replaced , it seems to be a good job ...
transport react , but i only tested with my fingers , i have no 2" tape .
the light sensor works good , FFW seems to react ok , FRW reacts but without strenght , play doesn´t react at all , sometimes brakes work , ....
but i need a tape !

here are the logic cards
we can see (2nd photo) some black "ELEC TROL" components , i´ m wondering if it´s been replaced ...



here are 2 shoots of ICsockets , there aren´t many , and they are not red .
i´m supposed to clean this , right ?


here are 2 parts of the rep/rec card , the white components seem to have been changed



as you can see , i need the schematics ....
and a tape ,
any remark ?
thanks
matthieu

How much money are you willing to commit to your restoration?

[joumik]

i would say less than 1000 euros in :
caps ... , a good 240V --->117V adapter , the schematics ,2 amphenol connectors and the third connector(don´t know the name) for logic orders .

time doesn´t count

i´m sure you want to say something ,
come on , tell me the nightmare it was

[2N1305]

Bonjour Matthieu!
(longue distance du Québec mon ami!)
Here are some things I think you should do, that will only increase your chances of success, and also make the machine look better.
By the way, thank you for posting such great pictures, it really helps, sacré bordel, elles sont magnifiques!

1- The first think that caught my eye was the leftover flux on the bottom side of the "Control Board". That's the yellow-brown stuff on some of the solder connections. After a while it starts to eat up the pcb material. You can remove it, "à temps perdu", just by breaking it up with a dental pick, or other sharp object, or with a cotton swab and isopropyl alcohol.
While you're doing that you could also clean the heads with alcohol and cotton swabs, along with the capstan. Do not put alcohol on the pinch roller (which probably needs replacement, anyway). That part is about 75-150$.


2- replace the electrolytic capacitors (les électrochimiques, comme vous les appelez en France) we call them 'lytics. In case you don't know those are the blue cylindrical cans with markings such as 63uF 25V, 20uF 100V, etc. Some "round" values (5, 20, 50, etc) are no longer available but that makes no difference since the tolerance on these parts makes it such that you can substitute values within 10 or even 20%. HOWEVER, you must retain the same voltage value (or higher).
If you have never done this before, or soldered before, then you should practice on an old tv or stereo. Please note that these capacitors have a polrity, + and -, you CANNOT invert them or they WILL EXPLODE. And of they explode whil eyou are looking at the board, and you get the debris in your face, you will go to the hospital... (I don't like to scare people, but I figure the message is clearer and they will pay attention of their life is in danger!)

3- clean the boards with a small computer type vacuum cleaner or just use and old toothbrush. This will eliminate most cobwebs and dead insects from the machine and remove the possibility of attracting more bugs...

The last thing I can suggest, If you know how to read shcematics and understand a little bit about electricity, OBTAIN the manual (which I beleive is downloadable for free on analogrules' website. I remember seeing the JH-16 service manula, it was about 21 megs).

The best thing you can do is familiarize yourself with the circuitry so you have a good idea of what you're doing, and where to look when there is a problem.

Ouf! that was a bit of a long chapter, I hope I didn't say anything useless or stupid.

Now, something I would really like you to tell us: Where did this machine come from? Do you know its history?

take care, à plus tard,

2N1305

[MrMegaEli]

How do you know the caps are bad? I have 50 year old gear tube with even the electrolytics still good. Lubing the motor bearings and cleaning contacts would be a good start. Also, Steve Sadler in can probably help you out, his number has been posted here before.

[MrMegaEli]

The IC pins on the pictures you posted look rusted, you may want to clean/replace the IC’s and IC sockets.

[analogtodd]

They are 35yr old caps... they are bad.... They were marginal to begin with, they are just a nightmare now. There are like 5 caps per channel to swap out on that machine, takes literally minutes.
The IC's are rusted, they are gunked... I think this one predates, the "dreaded RED IC SOCKETS", but I've found those black cheapo bi-fers to be just as bad as the red sockets.

Do the power supplies first though, thats where most of your headache will be.

Thats a very early MCI, it'll never be perfect, it probably would sound pretty decent though... I'd imagine you'd spend more than 1k to do it right though... not to mention HOURS UPON HOURS of your time.

The most important thing to consider before undertaking any of this is, whats the condition of the heads? Then motors/power supplies, lastly, the actual channel electronics.

[David Kulka]

Originally Posted by tele27

Not to be discouraging but those earlier machines are wrought with problems. I tried restoring one and had problems with arcing on the traces, intermittent molex connectors, the relay switches just to name a few things. Trying to get the machine operating with any consistency at all was very frustrating. Add to that the scarcity of parts and the ones you can find like from Blevins Audio are expensive. I learned that the newer model MCI machines were easier to work on then those early beasts. After about $800 or more I threw in the towel. If you really want a 2" MCI machine get a hold of a guy in Nashville at studio Welcome to Studio 1979 Chris Mara. He I think used to work with Blevins and is very knowledgeable about the MCI machines. Personally I'd stay away from the earlier AC machines and save up for a refurbed later model, and save yourself a boatload of aggravation. Just my opinion.YMMV.

I totally agree. This machine looks like a really bad bet for a restoration.

[tele27]

Just remember the abbreviation MCI =Munchy Crunchy & Intermittent.:-)
That was going to be my next question,about the condition of the heads, but someone already asked. When cleaning those boards be careful to not tear up the traces. Make sure the isopropyl is 91% and not lower. I wouldn't even begin to undertake a cap job of that size without a really good desolder tool.
Then there is the tape tensioner,and a few other things that can be found on ebay. If you decide to proceed I'll see what I have left over in parts from the machine I worked on. I'm pretty sure I have some in a box somewhere out in my garage.
Hey you can't go forward without risk. One thing for sure is you will learn something new and that is never a bad thing.You will spend some money and who knows you might have yourself a working machine, or you'll get a 1k education about older MCI tape machines. I was looking at your pictures and it brought back memories for me, all I good utter to myself was "The Horror"!

[joumik]

hi all ,
and thanks a lot ,
your advices and feelings are greatly appreciated .

i have some soldering experience and i own a good weller station ,
recapping is ok for me .


thanks mr germanium for the advices ,

Analog Rules doesn´t have a jh16 / jh10 transport manual, ready to download ... , only later versions .
or i haven´t found ...
i emailed him , in case he had something .
and i know Blevins have one for 100 dollars.

you´*re right i have to get more intimate with the circuitry .
i have managed to get a Studer A80 (8tracks) in working order ,
and know that i can understand some of the circuitry ,
find places where there should be this or that voltage ...
change/re-solder components , ...
but i need the manuals !

the challenge , now , is to spend the less money possible ,
until deciding definitely to do it completely or not .

ok , first , some other photos

THE HEADS



there ´s no gap opening ...
i´m so scared of what you´ll say ...
what do you think ?

all the other cards of this type, are like the right one , all !
no other one has had the same "resistance explosion"/ replacement , as on the left card .(the same card i have shown in a previuos post)


all the repro/record cards look more or less this way ,
i mean electrolityc caps are all dead , and trannies , for some , look like these ones .


i´m thinking , first ,
that i could :
-get the schematics
-check the Power supplies voltages (what voltages am i supposed to find ?)
-unplug all the audio modules
-clean/resolder/recap the 3 (or more ?) logic cards
-see if i get clean logic functions

then check audio

thanks a lot tele27 , for your presence and your memories, maybe your parts would be helpful !...

i´m saying to myself , that , maybe ,
you´ll only say my heads are dead
i know that this is wayyy too expensive ....

.....

[muziekschuur]

Rome wasn't build in one day...
Do you have a room to store it and room to work on it? Well, then.... keep it. Or if you don't sell it...

[David Kulka]

It's hard to tell from a photo and even hard to tell in person sometimes, but those heads look WORN. The wide, flat edge is bad. New heads have a gently rounded face. Excess wear produces flattened faces and corners. Wider flat edge = more wear.

I think I have a manual that I could copy if you decide to go ahead with this, but it would be a little labor intensive to make and I'd have to charge you for it.

Best wishes...David

[joumik]

thanks David

very much !
i´ve been to your website , that´s impressive !
thanks for your wise advices , i´m still on but i´ve heard ...

i´m waiting for answers from Steve Sadler and Mr AnalogRules ,
about the schematics ,
so don´t take this time scanning!
can you tell me how many pages it is ? A80 ´s one was nearly 1000 pages if i remember correctly .

i ´m , first , needing infos concerning the power supplies and the "distribution".

i have a brochure with specs , that say it needs 8A power ,
i need a Big 220-->120 transfo , don´t you think ?
mine seems small ...

no light on the VU-meters , i suppose because of the absence of the autolocator ...() ,
but the needles are alive , they sometime shake , they are very quiet in general .

all i think i know :

-at the rear of the machine , plugged with the autolocator´s connectors , i´m supposed to find power and transport controls in the central black plastic connector ,the one between the 2 metal others which each cares for 8 audio tracks arming-controls ... , am i right ? (and clear ?...)

- i have , first , to check the power supplies at their most direct outputs

-then , there might be 3 or 4 different tensions that i have to point and check in several places , in order to find a faulty part or circuitry .

then , , that´s enough for the moment i think,
i think i will find things during this "trip" ..

yeaaaah the heads look WORN , i must agree .

when power supplies are done , i´ll check all the tracks with one re-capped set of audio modules (the "nicest" i´ll find) ,
i´ll try a kind of test-bench .

thanks again !

[joumik]

incorrect !
when the power supplies are ok AND logic cards recapped ! ,
then i´ll check the audiotracks .

[tele27]

Oh as far as the automistaker er uh I mean autolocator, here is my suggestion. Get a piece of 30 to 40 foot navel rope tie it on the top
part of the locator and sell it as a boat anchor! I can say with 90% certainty that you will not get that to function with the machine. So if you move forward concentrate on the machine first. I as it happens have a head stack here. But I really think that you should not go forward. My situation was very similar got the machine for next to nothing. Had the idea that I was going to restore it. Had people tell me the same thing about forgetting about restoring it. Bullheaded went ahead and did it anyway. Here is what I wound up with after about $1000 and many many hours of hovering over the machine. An education about early MCI tape machines and some parts.
Those machines were not reliable when they were new. Tape assistants would be stationed at the machine during sessions to manually assist the reels when they would either slow down or stop. Jeep had a great idea in trying to make an affordable multitrack machine. But it wasn't refined until years later when they got away from the AC motors and went to the DC ones, even then they needed attentive maintenance. There is a reason Ampex, and Studers of the day were priced higher. Personally I don't see why you would want to restore a machine like that. If you want a education on early MCI machines you can find it here and similar forums and save yourself some money for something else like food, considering that the worlds fiat currencies are about to fall off a cliff, hold on to what money you do have. Nearly every older industrialized country is broke.
I would love nothing better then to sell you some parts for a very reasonable price hell it's in my interest to do that, and encourage you on. But I also know whats at the end of it all and I would rather give you that for free. David Kulka posted and agrees with me and he knows a heck of a lot more about audio restoration then I will ever know.
Peace to you!

[joumik]

i have to think

[MrMegaEli]

Maybe it would be a good idea to send the heads off for evaluation before putting any money into the machine?

[joumik]

by the way that´s true it could be a nice boat anchor .

[mcijh]

I have two working JH10's. It's not impossible, just expensive (for you). If your a collector, like me, It's a must have. To paraphrase Jay Leno....you wouldn't commute to work every day in a Stanley Steamer.

Take the good advice and have your heads checked out (JRF Magnetics, AMP Services, Sprague Magnetics). Buy All the spare parts (and heads) you can find. DON'T "Lube" any motors.

I've already E-mailed you r.e. my services.

SS

[joumik]

allright ,

yes mr sadler i have well received your mail ,
i can say here it seems a very good deal !

what i´m going to do
- check power supplies (if some is dead i quite quit)

assuming i have no issue there ,
i will try to power the 2 motors , in case one would be dead (if one is dead i quite quit)
- re-cap transport , re-solder everything(on logic cards,nothing on audio) i can, re-do obvious broken buttons ,check relays and clean/re-solder/change molexes and IC´s , as "nicely" as i can .

at this stage , i will take out all the audio modules ,
and then power on ,
... ,
and check the logic functions , without and with a tape .

if transport and logic controls respond good (i mean really good) ,
then i´ll buy (if not found yet) the schematics ,
then i will evaluate the re-capping of a set of audio modules ,
in order to be able to check rec/repros on each track ,
and hire Mr Steve Sadler´s services for further operations .

i´m , first , forgetting about the autolocator .

if i have too many non-working issues , or so ,
i´ll stop ,
have a nice piece of furniture for the studio ,racked with outboard ,
and some trannies to fit , maybe on my Amek BC3 desk , as outboard , ...
i´ve had the desk for 150 euros . (i wouldn´t have paid more)

mr tele27 , dear friend ,
thank you for your very nice proposition ,
i think that i have some job before being able to accept such an offer ,
be sure that i´ll tell you when i´m done !


i don´t really know when i´m finished with this first step ,
as i´m also restoring my house deeply
i suppose i give you news in a couple/triple of weeks ...

thanks everybody

[joumik]

and ,
by the way ,
i don´t really know where the recorder comes from ,
i bought it to a guy that had seen it in a "EMMAUS" center ,
5 years ago ,
he could´nt let it there , so bought it ,
but never tried to repair it ,
he , so , stocked it in his hangar ,
until now .
calibration instructions are written in french , inside ...
that´s all i know ...
the unknown soldier ...

... caps already ordered !
matthieu

[MrMegaEli]

Originally Posted by mcijh

I have two working JH10's. It's not impossible, just expensive (for you). If your a collector, like me, It's a must have. To paraphrase Jay Leno....you wouldn't commute to work every day in a Stanley Steamer.

Take the good advice and have your heads checked out (JRF Magnetics, AMP Services, Sprague Magnetics). Buy All the spare parts (and heads) you can find. DON'T "Lube" any motors.

I've already E-mailed you r.e. my services.

SS

You don’t lube the capstan motor bearings on MCIs? I’ve never seen an MCI in person, only Ampex & Studer (I own both).

[joumik]

hi all ,
i have re-capped the logic cards ,
i have tested the relays on the logic motherboard ,
3 of them aren't working (24v doesn't make it switch the connections ) ,
if anybody can propose a better price than 20 euros for 1 relay ...
that's all i could find .
i will try to find a way to adapt cheaper ones if i can't find good ones for a simple price ....

you know what , i still haven't checked power supplies .....
and i'm still looking for the schematics ....

[Cadde]

arent the schematics on the analogrules.com website ?

And steve sadler is da man , i can tell you !!!

he fixed a JH 16 two weeks ago , same age of yours , and not with millions of kilometers on the heads ...

i´ve learned a LOT !

[babooino]

Contact No Brainer Audio! Chris Mara specializes in those machines.

Luck!