Repair philosophy

Dave Martin · 4th August 2003

When you're working on an old piece of gear, do you try to fix it so it works and can go back into service, or do you try to make it like it was when it was new?

This question arises from a recent experience I had with a local repair shop; I recently bought a 1957 Hammond C3, which I broguht to the local 'well known' organ shop. They told me that a rotor needed to be replaced (I think that's the part - it's what makes the Hammond Chorus/Vibrato do what it does). Anyway, they delivered the organ to the studio and it worked. A week later, I found a tech to modify the Leslie 21H cabinet that came with the C3 (changing it from a single speed to a dual speed leslie). When he dlievered the Leslie, I asked him to look at the C3 to try and find a little pop that happens when I changed speed.

When this second tech opened up the C3, he showed me an absolutely wretched wiring job (the harness was not only a bt too short, but it was held together with electrical tape), the AC shield was missing, and the lubrication system was simply gone. (Hammond techs know that there's a little funnel where you pour oil, which runs through a little tube to a network of absorbent pads and wicks, which draw the oil to where it's needed.) The pads and wicks were gone, and the tube that brings oil to the rotor was simply bent up out of the way - if I were to put oil into the reservior, it would simply run into the back of the organ.

By my standards, what the first tech did was simply a sloppy, piss-por job, even though he did, in fact, fix the problem. But his repair will likely create a need to repair his repair at some point.

Of course, I also understand the fact that his repair might have gone un-noticed for a few years if I hadn't (for other reasons) decided to find a better shop to keep my Hammond working at its best.

What do y'all think of this issue? Do you make a practice of getting things simply to work, or do you to the best job you can?

oldgearguy · 4th August 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave Martin
When you're working on an old piece of gear, do you try to fix it so it works and can go back into service, or do you try to make it like it was when it was new?

Interesting problem. I work primarily on analog synths and some older effects units. If a synth comes in and has more problems than what the customer identified, I have to call/contact them before doing anything. The main reason is that a lot of times, they bought the synth for $200 and don't want to put $200 in repairs into it, they just want the $50 calibration done.

If there's some small stuff that needs to be done, I'll usually try to clean those things up as part of the general repair. IMHO, there's no excuse for the original tech not contacting you and mentioning what he found. Then it would be your call on how much to have done.

As a tech though, you should be just as professional as the people you service -- do the best job you are capable of at all times. I know that I do think that at some point in time another tech might be inside the same box and I want to make it easy for them. I've had to 'unfix' too many repairs over the years.

McQ · 4th August 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave Martin
When you're working on an old piece of gear, do you try to fix it so it works and can go back into service, or do you try to make it like it was when it was new?

Dave, I hope you don't mind me speaking up...

From an original equipment manufacturer's view, we always try and restore the product to "new" AND current revision status except for:[list=1][*]Cosmetically-challenged cabinet pieces unless customer permission is given, and/or,[*]Any revisions in signal-path electronics unless customer permission is given.[/list=1]
For example, original RNPs shipped with a version of firmware that made the signal presence LED flash "randomly". If I were to get one of these RNPs back, I'd upgrade the firmware to bring the unit to current "non-randomly flashing LED firmware" spec/configuration!

If there's some physical reason I can't restore the unit to current standards, I'll replace the guts with our customer's permission. Despite MBA advice to the contrary, I don't believe that my repair shop should be a profit center, but another opportunity to show the customer our appreciation for them... Besides, if the product is designed and built properly, these issues should rarely come up!

In need of repair myself, in Austin,
McQ
FMR Audio

Dave Martin · 4th August 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by oldgearguy
IMHO, there's no excuse for the original tech not contacting you and mentioning what he found. Then it would be your call on how much to have done.

Actually, the original shop told me that the rotor needed to be fixed, and told me how much it would cost. The rpoblem was that when he fixed it, he left out some things (the lubrication mechanism) and did a pretty shoddy job on the wiring.

Quote:

As a tech though, you should be just as professional as the people you service -- do the best job you are capable of at all times. I know that I do think that at some point in time another tech might be inside the same box and I want to make it easy for them. I've had to 'unfix' too many repairs over the years.

Which is what the second tech said; he said as time goes on, he's having to work on more and more organs that have been worked on by the original tech. And he's having to clean up after them...

Dave Martin · 4th August 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by McQ
Dave, I hope you don't mind me speaking up...

In need of repair myself, in Austin,
McQ
FMR Audio

I don't mind you speaking up at all - since you have given up on rec.audio.pro, I haven't seen you online at all.

Your approach (as a manufacturer repairing stuff you designed) makes perfect sense to me, and I applaud you for it.

McQ · 4th August 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave Martin
...since you have given up on rec.audio.pro, I haven't seen you online at all.

I got tired of being met--too frequently--with vitriol while trying to help other forum members. Although civilized debate is a critical part of the scientific/engineering processes and progress (and, hence, a necessary part of my 25 year career...arghhhhh!), the audio industry's version of it tends to be sloppy, vitriolic and religious. Combine that with the bad behaviors bred on the impersonal internet and VIOLA! Maybe places like this can ultimately make a difference!

Here's hopin' in Austin,
McQ

**EveAnna Manley** · 4th August 2003

Yes as a manufacturer I think it's always in our best interest to have all that gear out there working the best it can all the time as even an old piece of gear represents the brand cuz, like, how does some user know how old the box is when walks in a studio and tries to use some half working thing in the rack? He might think it's a new piece not working that we made that way on purpose and then not think too highly of us.

And yes, sometimes we see gear that an outside tech has hacked at that we have to re-repair. Haven't seen too many butcher jobs lately though...

So when a piece comes in for repair we also do everything we can to get that thing working the very best it can. Fix the problem, any other problems, then apply any logical upgrades that we have since learned about. Maybe also do a little preventative maintenance, like re-EL-capping if it looks like they'll be drying up kinda soon anyway. Some of our models we have been building for 15 years.

Things evolve and things improve...

Now, for a hire-repair tech, it's a little different. The repaired unit doesn't have his name on it. So it becomes an issue of that guy having experience, knowledge and pride in his work with hopes of gaining your future business and your pals' future biz.

Like a car mechanic. We have all had awful car mechanics and if we are smart, we don't go back to those shops. My mechanic is 50 miles away in Marina del Ray. He's worth the drive (or the tow!)

**EveAnna Manley** · 4th August 2003

...And a big welcome to you Mark!

No vitriol allowed here.

We will keep the debates about the Gearz Gutz not the Geek Slutz! That's what i say.

I'm hoping this place will be a cool hang where we can pose questions and seek answers. Together.

Any Moaning can go to the Moan Zone...

Now, back to bad tech activities...

McQ · 4th August 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by EveAnna Manley
...And a big welcome to you Mark!

Thanks, Vanimal! It's good to be here and e-talk with you again! I hope all is well with you and yours...

Quote:

No vitriol allowed here.

We will keep the debates about the Gearz Gutz not the Geek Slutz! That's what i say.

I'm hoping this place will be a cool hang where we can pose questions and seek answers. Together.

I hope so! If there's anything I can help you with, don't hesitate!

Feelin' connected in Austin,
McQ

stuntmixer · 4th August 2003

High level technical and philosophical discussions with some of the greatest geek minds of our generation?.......
What's right with this picture?......everything.

McQ, check your PM.

Thanks, y'all rule

Dave Martin · 4th August 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by McQ
I got tired of being met--too frequently--with vitriol while trying to help other forum members...

... Maybe places like this can ultimately make a difference!

Here's hopin' in Austin,
McQ

We'll keep a good thought. Now I want to know how you can design and build gear and still have time to produce records? I've got something at the house that you produced - I haven't had a chance to listen to it yet...

McQ · 4th August 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave Martin
...Now I want to know how you can design and build gear and still have time to produce records?

Like some of us, sleep is optional!

Actually, I try to track/mix or produce at least one record per year to keep my chops up and pace everything accordingly. I just finished mixing another record that I'd love to send to you...

Quote:

I've got something at the house that you produced - I haven't had a chance to listen to it yet...

Ah! This explains why you're still able to form whole sentences. I don't know which of the records you've got, but be sure to listen while intoxicated or permanent damage may result...

Heavily dazed and confuzed in Austin,
McQ

triez · 4th August 2003

In aiming for a zero percent return rate and protection of hard won reputation, I subscribe to a full disclosure policy. I open the machine, check everything and if it is anything other than a straight and simple repair I contact the customer and discuss all options.

The difficult thing I find these days is that especially with the large analog polyphonic synthesisers such as Oberheim OBXa's, Prophet 5 & 10's, Memory Moogs and ARP quadra's is that they usually have died in stages over the years, developing little problems that the owner has just lived with because they are not show-stoppers. When eventually it dies all together they stuff it under tha bed for 3 years and then decide to have it fixed, but having forgotten about all the previous issues.

So in it comes to the shop with the owner saying that it was just fine until they turned it on one day and it was dead, or even worse, they have sold it to someone else in a non-working state.

Herein lies the problem: The customer asks for a quote, but the only way to tell what is wrong with such a machine is to repair it - first you have to get it powered up and kind of working, then test every function and make a list of other faults, and come up with an estimate of what the probable cause of each is, add this all up and throw in calibration time as well. This is the repair cost.

Then comes part 2 - the machine is full of 25 year old tantalum and electrolytic capacitors, the tantalums go short circuit when they fail, usually a week after the machine leaves the shop, and the bad electros change the time constants of controls and if they are in a filter or EQ make things sound thin. So bad can this be that I refuse to service any ARP synthesiser unless I get permission to replace the tantalums altogether.

So I basically give a run down of the above to each new vintage equipment customer so that they understand the ins and outs of such repairs, and we plan out something that fits their budget. My basic and inviolate ground rule is that I check EVERY function of a machine before it leaves, and inform the customer of anything I find amiss so that they have the option to repair it on the spot, or else know about the problem so that they can get it fixed another time.

The extra time I spend doing all this is really worth it - it spares me the hassle of returns, and keeps customers happy and informed.

**Tim Farrant** · 5th August 2003

Servicing gear can have it's problems. Recently a guy brought to us a Peavey 680 powered mixer which was in a REAL bad state of repair. All the graphic sliders were busted, all the mic input XLR's were broken as well as many other pots. Someone else had been inside it and replaced pots with the wrong types, there were blown op amps etc etc..

Anyhow, $500 later (thats NZ$ mind you) we had it back to original. My tech soak tested it into a dummy load for 2 hours, everything was working fine.

The guy collected it, was more than happy (because he picked it up for a steal) and took it to it's first gig. Plugged it in, it worked for 10 mins then smoke issued forth from the power amp !!! aaarrrggghhh.

So he brings it back to us, what do we do ? The power amp section has obviously had a beer - even though we tested at full power into a dummy load for 2 hours. Is it our fault ? Should we repair it for free ?

Your thoughts....PLEASE !!

Cheers
Tim

triez · 5th August 2003

In a situation like this you could try a two stage plan - explain to the customer that the current problem is something further to what you fixed, and that it is in a different part of the circuit. If he jacks up, then cut a deal with him such as halving the labour cost for the power amp repair ( but not parts of course ) and wear the loss if you want to keep his custom.

I take it that by "had a beer" you don't mean that it had one poured into it during the show? That of course changes everything...

4th August 2003	#1
Dave Martin Moderator emeritus Joined: Jun 2002 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 3,152 Thread Starter	Repair philosophy When you're working on an old piece of gear, do you try to fix it so it works and can go back into service, or do you try to make it like it was when it was new? This question arises from a recent experience I had with a local repair shop; I recently bought a 1957 Hammond C3, which I broguht to the local 'well known' organ shop. They told me that a rotor needed to be replaced (I think that's the part - it's what makes the Hammond Chorus/Vibrato do what it does). Anyway, they delivered the organ to the studio and it worked. A week later, I found a tech to modify the Leslie 21H cabinet that came with the C3 (changing it from a single speed to a dual speed leslie). When he dlievered the Leslie, I asked him to look at the C3 to try and find a little pop that happens when I changed speed. When this second tech opened up the C3, he showed me an absolutely wretched wiring job (the harness was not only a bt too short, but it was held together with electrical tape), the AC shield was missing, and the lubrication system was simply gone. (Hammond techs know that there's a little funnel where you pour oil, which runs through a little tube to a network of absorbent pads and wicks, which draw the oil to where it's needed.) The pads and wicks were gone, and the tube that brings oil to the rotor was simply bent up out of the way - if I were to put oil into the reservior, it would simply run into the back of the organ. By my standards, what the first tech did was simply a sloppy, piss-por job, even though he did, in fact, fix the problem. But his repair will likely create a need to repair his repair at some point. Of course, I also understand the fact that his repair might have gone un-noticed for a few years if I hadn't (for other reasons) decided to find a better shop to keep my Hammond working at its best. What do y'all think of this issue? Do you make a practice of getting things simply to work, or do you to the best job you can? __________________ Dave Martin Java Jive Studio www.javajivestudio.com Nashville, TN

4th August 2003	#7
EveAnna Manley Moderator Joined: Jul 2002 Location: Chino, CA (cowtown) Posts: 677	Yes as a manufacturer I think it's always in our best interest to have all that gear out there working the best it can all the time as even an old piece of gear represents the brand cuz, like, how does some user know how old the box is when walks in a studio and tries to use some half working thing in the rack? He might think it's a new piece not working that we made that way on purpose and then not think too highly of us. And yes, sometimes we see gear that an outside tech has hacked at that we have to re-repair. Haven't seen too many butcher jobs lately though... So when a piece comes in for repair we also do everything we can to get that thing working the very best it can. Fix the problem, any other problems, then apply any logical upgrades that we have since learned about. Maybe also do a little preventative maintenance, like re-EL-capping if it looks like they'll be drying up kinda soon anyway. Some of our models we have been building for 15 years. Things evolve and things improve... Now, for a hire-repair tech, it's a little different. The repaired unit doesn't have his name on it. So it becomes an issue of that guy having experience, knowledge and pride in his work with hopes of gaining your future business and your pals' future biz. Like a car mechanic. We have all had awful car mechanics and if we are smart, we don't go back to those shops. My mechanic is 50 miles away in Marina del Ray. He's worth the drive (or the tow!) __________________ Cheers, EveAnna Manley, Manley Laboratories, Inc. www.manleylabs.com

4th August 2003	#10
stuntmixer Gear nut Joined: Mar 2003 Location: Austin, Tx Posts: 123	High level technical and philosophical discussions with some of the greatest geek minds of our generation?....... What's right with this picture?......everything. McQ, check your PM. Thanks, y'all rule __________________ Charles Rieser Southwind Studios Austin, Tx. www.southwindstudios.net charles@southwindstudios.net

5th August 2003	#14
Tim Farrant Moderator Joined: Jun 2002 Location: New Zealand Posts: 2,410	Servicing gear can have it's problems. Recently a guy brought to us a Peavey 680 powered mixer which was in a REAL bad state of repair. All the graphic sliders were busted, all the mic input XLR's were broken as well as many other pots. Someone else had been inside it and replaced pots with the wrong types, there were blown op amps etc etc.. Anyhow, $500 later (thats NZ$ mind you) we had it back to original. My tech soak tested it into a dummy load for 2 hours, everything was working fine. The guy collected it, was more than happy (because he picked it up for a steal) and took it to it's first gig. Plugged it in, it worked for 10 mins then smoke issued forth from the power amp !!! aaarrrggghhh. So he brings it back to us, what do we do ? The power amp section has obviously had a beer - even though we tested at full power into a dummy load for 2 hours. Is it our fault ? Should we repair it for free ? Your thoughts....PLEASE !! Cheers Tim __________________ "Come on, make my day" Dirty Harry (Clint Eastwood) Visit Buzz Audio

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4th August 2003	#13
triez Lives for gear Joined: Apr 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 1,316	In aiming for a zero percent return rate and protection of hard won reputation, I subscribe to a full disclosure policy. I open the machine, check everything and if it is anything other than a straight and simple repair I contact the customer and discuss all options. The difficult thing I find these days is that especially with the large analog polyphonic synthesisers such as Oberheim OBXa's, Prophet 5 & 10's, Memory Moogs and ARP quadra's is that they usually have died in stages over the years, developing little problems that the owner has just lived with because they are not show-stoppers. When eventually it dies all together they stuff it under tha bed for 3 years and then decide to have it fixed, but having forgotten about all the previous issues. So in it comes to the shop with the owner saying that it was just fine until they turned it on one day and it was dead, or even worse, they have sold it to someone else in a non-working state. Herein lies the problem: The customer asks for a quote, but the only way to tell what is wrong with such a machine is to repair it - first you have to get it powered up and kind of working, then test every function and make a list of other faults, and come up with an estimate of what the probable cause of each is, add this all up and throw in calibration time as well. This is the repair cost. Then comes part 2 - the machine is full of 25 year old tantalum and electrolytic capacitors, the tantalums go short circuit when they fail, usually a week after the machine leaves the shop, and the bad electros change the time constants of controls and if they are in a filter or EQ make things sound thin. So bad can this be that I refuse to service any ARP synthesiser unless I get permission to replace the tantalums altogether. So I basically give a run down of the above to each new vintage equipment customer so that they understand the ins and outs of such repairs, and we plan out something that fits their budget. My basic and inviolate ground rule is that I check EVERY function of a machine before it leaves, and inform the customer of anything I find amiss so that they have the option to repair it on the spot, or else know about the problem so that they can get it fixed another time. The extra time I spend doing all this is really worth it - it spares me the hassle of returns, and keeps customers happy and informed.

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