Which college to go to for recording engineering?

[TheArk]

The choice are Full Sail, SAE, or JMU School of music. I have my eye set on JMU cause its close but away from me if that makes sense, and cause they have orchestras and what not. SAE is whatever. Full Sail is a big one since i hear of how involved the students are. Any suggestions to graduates of these colleges>

[Steck]

What is your goal? Selecting a school is partly because you will learn things, but then, what are you going to do when you're through with the school. Can they help you get a job? What's their track record with placements, and are they in the field/realm you're interested in?

I would "imagine you have the shingle". Now what would you do, with it in hand? What if you could move forward without "the shingle" anyway, would that make a difference?

[TheArk]

Originally Posted by Steck

What is your goal? Selecting a school is partly because you will learn things, but then, what are you going to do when you're through with the school. Can they help you get a job? What's their track record with placements, and are they in the field/realm you're interested in?

I would "imagine you have the shingle". Now what would you do, with it in hand? What if you could move forward without "the shingle" anyway, would that make a difference?

my goal is to make it in the music industry any means possible. Whether it be by being a producer, mixing engineer, or mastering engineer, even a song writer.
When i was done with school i was going to move to Staten Island for a while get things settled and meet up with close dedicated friends that i know are also trying to get in the industry.
Full Sail is more involved i hear and seeing what the students do is impressive. Full Sail seems like an obvious choice i just dont want to leave home though im in NJ. I can leave with no problems since i got family willing to let me live there but still.
SAE is hear sucks. Only 9 months of learning doesnt seem appealing to me seriously. Recording Engineering is a craft, and your telling me you can teach it to me in 9 months monday through thursday roughly 5 hours a day? Get out of here. Its also in New York. New York is a dead zone for music, that would be suicide for me in reality.
JMU School of Music is relatively new to me. I have read some stuff of there site and they are also involved in the music industry working with big shots and what not but not as heavy as full sail. I like the fact that they have concert halls and what not so i can also practice my piano playing and also focus on overall music not just button pushing. They also require all music industry majors (name of their recording engineering course) to have good SAT and ACT scores along with having good knowlegde of their instrument.
To break it down.
Full Sail- Opportunity, Far away but willing to do it, Big Shots Working
JMU- Music Based, Near, Big Shots but not as much as Sail
SAE- New York=DEAD, 9 months? Get out of here. Close but not worth it.

I am a junior in high school so i still got time to decide. Just want to push to a general direction. So looking at it, it narrows down to Full Sail and JMU School Of Music

[sameal]

um. none of them.


and if you do, make it a secondary thing, and get a degree in something else.

[Mulmany]

Look at it this way....

You are paying to go to school to learn what was originally taught through internships. Pay to live to intern to work (hopefully) or pay to school to intern to work (hopefully). Its not an even trade. Don't go into debt for your school unless you know that its going to pan out. Its not worth it. I think Full Sail is the biggest rip off in the music education system. If you want to be truly useful get an electrical engineering degree and a minor in music.

One benefit to school it that hopefully you are not learning some engineers BS explanations for the hows and whys. That was a big benefit to me. Looking back I would have got a real degree first, then if I still felt the need I would have gone to CRAS.

By the way, no school can teach you art, or prepare you for every situation. It provides a foundation to work from, don't overpay for that foundation. There is not that much money in music, and gear is expensive as it is.

my 2 cents

[Mardi Gras]

I attend SAE. It's a very good college, they teach you everything you need to know.

[TheArk]

Originally Posted by Mulmany

Look at it this way....

You are paying to go to school to learn what was originally taught through internships. Pay to live to intern to work (hopefully) or pay to school to intern to work (hopefully). Its not an even trade. Don't go into debt for your school unless you know that its going to pan out. Its not worth it. I think Full Sail is the biggest rip off in the music education system. If you want to be truly useful get an electrical engineering degree and a minor in music.

One benefit to school it that hopefully you are not learning some engineers BS explanations for the hows and whys. That was a big benefit to me. Looking back I would have got a real degree first, then if I still felt the need I would have gone to CRAS.

By the way, no school can teach you art, or prepare you for every situation. It provides a foundation to work from, don't overpay for that foundation. There is not that much money in music, and gear is expensive as it is.

my 2 cents

Well i know that if i go to Full Sail im not going to be a platinum producer off the bat, im willing to work for it trust me

School will teach me precise things and about music and what not and not some internship with some dudes like seriously.

I dont know i am not going to get another degree first, im sticking with my original plan

[sameal]

Originally Posted by TheNext40

Well i know that if i go to Full Sail im not going to be a platinum producer off the bat, im willing to work for it trust me

School will teach me precise things and about music and what not and not some internship with some dudes like seriously.

I dont know i am not going to get another degree first, im sticking with my original plan

you should go for your dreams in life. this is true. and nobody here thinks any differently, trust me.

But a good fall back is just as important to have as your dreams are. Because if shit doesn't pan out to what you think it will, you can still continue the dream. think of it as dream insurance. find a job that you can deal with that pays money, and get a degree in that simultaneously to your audio degree. it will pay off, i guarantee it.

I went to an audio school, and it didn't pan out. I have no fallback but experience in manufacturing. It's incredibly scary out there right now, the world over. the economy is recovering supposedly, but nobody's hiring and even manufacturing is starting to ask for a degree. Company's are pulling benefits, vacation, sick time you name it, because it's supposedly to expensive for them to keep supplying. The working world is a changin' and you should be prepared for it with as many avenues as you can open up for yourself. don't pidgeon hole yourself. it's just not smart to do in general, no matter what your career is.

school will most likely NOT teach you specific things in audio like you think it will. That is a hard realization i had to come to terms with. Most of what you will do as an engineer is obtained by being an engineer. that's the catch 22 of it. Its like when jobs ask for experience, but you need that job to get the experience. school will probably teach the the way the units work and signal flow, not much else.

Whats gonna make or break you is what you do when the heat is on, and that band is behind the glass. You can't get that experience in an audio school.

you also have to think of it as not only an engineer, but a sales position too. you have to know how to deal with customers face to face and on the phone to get your business in the door. You have to know how to protect yourself from customers who don't want to pay. All this an audio school will not teach you.


I'm not trying to be a downer, and i could keep spouting off about this stuff, but this message is long enough. All I'm saying is have a fallback, for your own protection.

Pursue the dream, but keep reality close behind and watch your ass. Always have a plan b.

[Steck]

Originally Posted by sameal

you should go for your dreams in life. this is true. and nobody here thinks any differently, trust me.

But a good fall back is just as important to have, as your dreams are.

Think of it as dream insurance. Find a job that you can deal with that pays money, and get a degree in that simultaneously to your audio degree. it will pay off, i guarantee it.

you also have to think of it as not only an engineer, but a sales position too. you have to know how to deal with customers face to face and on the phone to get your business in the door. You have to know how to protect yourself from customers who don't want to pay. All this an audio school will not teach you.

What I have found is that whenever I charge the barricade straight on, I fail. The only reason why I think I was able to get pretty quickly into something paying in audio was that it was back in the era when Nashville had a bajillion studios. Even then, it was my ability to solder and troubleshoot and fix things that allowed me to differentiate myself from every other engineer walking in the door.

So if you're set on it, find some good bands, maybe even ones that have done a first CD, and cultivate relationships with them, help them with their live sound and gear setups, and try to earn their respect enough that, by the time they decide to record again, (assuming they haven't imploded in the mean-time) that they will want to drag you along into the studio.

I agree with Sameal: don't give up the dream, but keep your eyes open and try to move ahead in other ways. A business or accounting degree *will* be useful to you, and you can find additional ways to get by if the "charge straight ahead" approach doesn't work. The discipline to stay the course and get that "non-dream" plan-B degree is more important than you think.

[sameal]

On top of that, a business degree or accounting degree would be useful to have for audio as well. alot of that stuff especially with a home studio you will be doing yourself.

[heybub419]

Yeah I would say go for something else, and maybe get a minor in music.

Me, for example, I'm in school (University of Toledo) for software programming. I love music, think about recording and mixing all the time, but I know that it will be pretty hard to get a good job with it as my main degree. (Also, I've always loved programming, and the degree is going really well for me because of it.)

I someday hope to have a good home studio, but I would personally get my degree in something else. I'm not saying to give up on your passion AT ALL, I'm just giving my opinion of what I would do. But of course, do what your heart/mind/soul/something tells you. And good luck!


2 cents.

[roostert]

A backup plan means you're potentially setting yourself up for failure in your dream. Not failure in a career, but failure in what you really want to do. If you take 4 years to go to school to get a "backup" degree, you've just wasted 4 years of getting ahead in audio, because you weren't able to intern, work cheaply, etc....Now you've got a degree in another field (or related field), possibly school debt that is going to require you to find a decent paying job, which in turn will keep the amount of time you'd like to spend pursuing your dream even further back.

I've never understood going to school as a backup option/play. Doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever. If you decide to go at audio, do it now. Don't look back. At some point, you'll decide it is or isn't working, then at that point, if it's not working, go back to school and get that "backup" degree. 4 years is 4 years, whether it's now or later. I say go for the dream 1st.

I agree with one of the earlier posts. If you're gonna spend the $$$, use it to live on and dive in all the way. Work for free, network, intern, whatever it takes. Be smart about who's full of ***t, and don't work with them again. You don't need an accounting degree any more to be an audio guy than an accountant needs to know how to be a mechanic to drive a car.

Many, many years ago I had a conversation with an artist manager who's act I was working on their record. I asked him what he looked for in an artist. He said he started with asking them 1 simple question...."What are you going to do if the artist career doesn't happen?"....If they gave him an answer, he knew they probably weren't going to succeed. He didn't want them having a backup plan because then there was a lack of hunger. If you're looking at getting into the "record" business as an audio guy, you'll need that kind of hunger. I can't speak for any other facet of audio, but in the record industry....it's gonna be a tough, tough road. Your gotta really, really want it.

[TheArk]

Originally Posted by sameal

you should go for your dreams in life. this is true. and nobody here thinks any differently, trust me.

But a good fall back is just as important to have as your dreams are. Because if shit doesn't pan out to what you think it will, you can still continue the dream. think of it as dream insurance. find a job that you can deal with that pays money, and get a degree in that simultaneously to your audio degree. it will pay off, i guarantee it.

I went to an audio school, and it didn't pan out. I have no fallback but experience in manufacturing. It's incredibly scary out there right now, the world over. the economy is recovering supposedly, but nobody's hiring and even manufacturing is starting to ask for a degree. Company's are pulling benefits, vacation, sick time you name it, because it's supposedly to expensive for them to keep supplying. The working world is a changin' and you should be prepared for it with as many avenues as you can open up for yourself. don't pidgeon hole yourself. it's just not smart to do in general, no matter what your career is.

school will most likely NOT teach you specific things in audio like you think it will. That is a hard realization i had to come to terms with. Most of what you will do as an engineer is obtained by being an engineer. that's the catch 22 of it. Its like when jobs ask for experience, but you need that job to get the experience. school will probably teach the the way the units work and signal flow, not much else.

Whats gonna make or break you is what you do when the heat is on, and that band is behind the glass. You can't get that experience in an audio school.

you also have to think of it as not only an engineer, but a sales position too. you have to know how to deal with customers face to face and on the phone to get your business in the door. You have to know how to protect yourself from customers who don't want to pay. All this an audio school will not teach you.


I'm not trying to be a downer, and i could keep spouting off about this stuff, but this message is long enough. All I'm saying is have a fallback, for your own protection.

Pursue the dream, but keep reality close behind and watch your ass. Always have a plan b.

Thanks man this means alot to me. I get scared since i hear mad people here almost encouraging me to stay away from the industry. I cant do that seriously music is all i know, i cant sit behind a desk from 9-5, i refuse to be a slave. I plan to get my degree in Audio Engineering and then do hpefully get a job as a barber and go to school for that. Something simple and not that crazy lol

Originally Posted by roostert

A backup plan means you're potentially setting yourself up for failure in your dream. Not failure in a career, but failure in what you really want to do. If you take 4 years to go to school to get a "backup" degree, you've just wasted 4 years of getting ahead in audio, because you weren't able to intern, work cheaply, etc....Now you've got a degree in another field (or related field), possibly school debt that is going to require you to find a decent paying job, which in turn will keep the amount of time you'd like to spend pursuing your dream even further back.

I've never understood going to school as a backup option/play. Doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever. If you decide to go at audio, do it now. Don't look back. At some point, you'll decide it is or isn't working, then at that point, if it's not working, go back to school and get that "backup" degree. 4 years is 4 years, whether it's now or later. I say go for the dream 1st.

I agree with one of the earlier posts. If you're gonna spend the $$$, use it to live on and dive in all the way. Work for free, network, intern, whatever it takes. Be smart about who's full of ***t, and don't work with them again. You don't need an accounting degree any more to be an audio guy than an accountant needs to know how to be a mechanic to drive a car.

Many, many years ago I had a conversation with an artist manager who's act I was working on their record. I asked him what he looked for in an artist. He said he started with asking them 1 simple question...."What are you going to do if the artist career doesn't happen?"....If they gave him an answer, he knew they probably weren't going to succeed. He didn't want them having a backup plan because then there was a lack of hunger. If you're looking at getting into the "record" business as an audio guy, you'll need that kind of hunger. I can't speak for any other facet of audio, but in the record industry....it's gonna be a tough, tough road. Your gotta really, really want it.

You basically sumed up EVERYTHING i wanted to say! It doesnt make sense to put yourself in debt going to two schools. Thanks guys i appreciate both of your input really guided me today Thanks so much!

[heybub419]

With whatever you do, good luck and keep at it!

PS, with my earlier post, I was just saying what I would do...but I'm not really going for audio as a career, just as a HUGE hobby/obsession lol. So, I think what I said doesn't really qualify that well, because you do want a career in it. So basically, my earlier suggestion probably won't work well for you, because we have different perspectives on it, you know what I mean?

[Bill Way]

I looked at the schools last year, as I wanted to learn it as a second career - got tired of selling software, though I'll always miss those nice big paychecks. I ended up with Recording Connection, which places you with a working studio, and gives you books with lessons that cover the basics. From this, I've been interning with Steve Addabbo at Shelter Island Sound, and it's been amazing.
Now, Recording Connection gets about $7500 for the course, which is only cheap when you compare it to SAE and the others. Here's my suggestion: get a degree in something that will actually earn you a living, and intern in a studio while you get the degree. Lots cheaper, that, and having multiple avenues available to you is a good thing, especially if you are thinking of *anything* in the music business. To intern in a studio, contact the studios near you, and go meet them.
Whatever you do, get into a studio. The technical stuff is easy - you can pick that up yourself. But dealing with real clients, in real time, is something you can never learn in a classroom.

Good luck!

WW

[Steck]

Originally Posted by roostert

He didn't want them having a backup plan because then there was a lack of hunger. If you're looking at getting into the "record" business as an audio guy, you'll need that kind of hunger. I can't speak for any other facet of audio, but in the record industry....it's gonna be a tough, tough road. Your gotta really, really want it.

I do agree with your point. You have to want it pretty bad, as there's many barriers, and spending time on "plan-B" is a distraction, at the minimum.

However, I want to point out that many major label artists have a second gig just to make ends meet, and fill in the gaps in income flow. For example, Vanilla Ice's TV show about rehabbing houses. Obviously he's figured out that not only can he make money on the sale of the houses he's flipping, but if/when the network will air the show, then he gets the publicity and attention value of having his own show (where he can potentially use all his own music on and benefit from the licensing opportunity). So the "day job" figures into the career in a synergistic way. (Oh, and by the way, he can provide work for folks in his entourage/family - they benefit from his management of the opportunities that are available to them as a group).

The problem I see with the "audio school" approach is that there's so much more to know than just the gear (and that's only "their gear").

So my point is that, if you're going to spend money on a degree at all, get one that'll be useful across a variety of disciplines (and don't lose sight of why you're getting it - don't party too much, etc. Work the system and try to test out of stuff, so you accelerate the process).

Anyone you're going to work for or with in the audio realm will probably appreciate it if you can fly Microsoft Excel and create spreadsheets quickly and easily, for example.

Otherwise, as I said in so many words in my earlier post, forget the audio schools, and go start building relationships right out out of the gate. Relationships are one source of where opportunities come from - you can pick up the knowledge as you go along. It's surprising what things can happen when a friend asks you if you can do something, and you say, "I have no idea, but I'm willing to roll up my sleeves and learn as I go. When do we start?"

John

[jrose12]

As a music industry minor at JMU I feel I can give you a little insight into our program. If you want to focus solely on the engineering and recording side of the music business this is probably not where you want to go. We do have classes for that which are taught by great professors. I would recommend if you go here to take the minor because you can take all of the classes and major in something else while having all of the same experiences as a major. The higher classes in the program are sound reinforcement, multitrack recording (using protools), a class on Logic pro, songwriting, sound in broadcast media, artist management, marketing of recorded music, entrepreneurship, concert production and promotion, and possibly a few others. To get into those classes you have to take a few pre requisites, including a survey of music industry and music law (covers everything from band contracts to copyright laws to recording contracts) and to get into the technical classes you also have to take a class in the physics of sound. The teachers of all the classes have a vast amount of experience and knowledge in the field, they aren't just guys who read the books. They have all either been touring musicians or have ran their own studios/labels. Overall I would recommend our program if you want to become a more well rounded person in the music industry but if you want to focus solely on one part of the industry you may want to try Full Sail. Hope this helps and if you want to know more about the program let me know.

Jason

[S2udio]

Originally Posted by TheArk

my goal is to make it in the music industry any means possible.

Good luck.......try the X Factor.

[jonnyb8390]

Pay close attention to the last question answered:
George Massenburg Interview | Mix Magazine Interview With George Massenburg

[Jim Williams]

The School Of Hard Knocks will give you your best education.

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

The School Of Hard Knocks will give you your best education.

I don't want to crush your dream, but you will learn as much interning for free to a local sound company or studio as you will paying to go to school, and you'll learn it faster. There are few jobs in the industry as it is, if you take the time to go to school, there will be that many more people taking the available jobs while you are tied up in school. Really, you can learn a lot of it from books but there is no substitute for practical experience. Understanding how something works and making it work are two different things and the textbook examples are one thing, while the real world is another.

So if you want to join the ranks of the under-appreciated and underpaid, welcome.... but jump in the water ASAP.

Oh, if your goal is to make a living, you've got a better shot as a plumber or electrician. Then you can afford to go to concerts, buy recordings, and enjoy music. The workdays are shorter, too.

[Icetea335]

You can look at one of my posts and all the whining I did. College is great, if you have the money to learn something, but you don't place a bet on a horse unless it's gonna win you something. (don't take out loans without it being an investment(something that makes you money)) in which case this wouldn't be right off the bat. I had the same ambition as you, now I'm a janitor at a hospital and a teacher at a highschool trying to work 2 full time jobs to pay off $100,00 and mix peoples CDs on the side...while in school I was told "this is the industry" I had to laugh manically to myself. If I could I'd go back and not go at all and just intern and read a lot of books and practice. Isn't that how you get to carnige hall?

[Osis]

Find any engineer that went to fullsail and ask them if they think it was worth it. I used to work with an engineer that is still paying off his FS debt. Just intern, be a runner, start recording, ask questions when you get stuck. Start now. Just start recording, its the only way to learn effectively.
Edit: And learn the etiquette, this will get you farther than you think. No matter how good you are, or how fast, or slick, it doesn't matter at all if you don't understand the etiquette.

[indecline]

i had a friend go to full sail and the hours are insane. he said sometimes he'd go to class from 1pm-5pm, then lab at like 3am. it was also like 40k, but he wasn't hurting for cash so.....

i though about going to full sail, Berkly, sae, and honestly my local community college had a better program with MORE TIME in the studio working on your own projects. that's what it should be about, that's where you'll learn, screw up, and hopefully learn from that. sure, there wasn't a neve in every room but i got to spend my last three semesters, 4 hours a week, by myself, on an ssl 4048g with some nice out board to boot....and for cheap. school allowed me to get an internship, and now i've been with that studio for 4 years, keys in hand. am i making a living from it.. no... have i made more every year i've been there, hell yes.

But a backup plan is an EXCELLENT idea, i'll be starting school for electrical engineering next year. it's something that's copacetic with working in the studio, something i can make some serious money at. i would probably have never gotten this far into electronics if i didn't go to school and get a spot learning from a great engineer.

[TheArk]

Originally Posted by indecline

i had a friend go to full sail and the hours are insane. he said sometimes he'd go to class from 1pm-5pm, then lab at like 3am. it was also like 40k, but he wasn't hurting for cash so.....

i though about going to full sail, Berkly, sae, and honestly my local community college had a better program with MORE TIME in the studio working on your own projects. that's what it should be about, that's where you'll learn, screw up, and hopefully learn from that. sure, there wasn't a neve in every room but i got to spend my last three semesters, 4 hours a week, by myself, on an ssl 4048g with some nice out board to boot....and for cheap. school allowed me to get an internship, and now i've been with that studio for 4 years, keys in hand. am i making a living from it.. no... have i made more every year i've been there, hell yes.

But a backup plan is an EXCELLENT idea, i'll be starting school for electrical engineering next year. it's something that's copacetic with working in the studio, something i can make some serious money at. i would probably have never gotten this far into electronics if i didn't go to school and get a spot learning from a great engineer.

guessing he is taking an associates in engineerng?
I am lost too on which one to pick, assossciates or bachlors. Anyone has some insigh? You think two years would be enough to learn some tricks of the trade to get me on the right foot?

[nine99nine]

I went through an associates program and now work at that same program as an instructional assistant. I have worked with lots of different people whether in the classroom as a student, instructor or as a special guest. In my opinion, the school doesn't matter as much as your ambition and willingness to work towards a goal does. A lot of the guys will tell you to go to a studio and learn from an engineer in their environment and that works for some people but not everyone. One thing school allowed myself to figure out is what exactly I wanted to do in audio/music as a career. I had no clue what I wanted to do for a job after high school except that I wanted it to involve music. Long story short I took classes at a community college and got a great idea of all the different aspects of audio there are out in the market. One thing that always repeats is that students who live music, get the good grades, work in audio jobs while taking classes and end up with decent internships/jobs at the end. They would have gotten where they are with or without a school!

Here are some things to consider:

If you already know what you want to concentrate on as a job, such as recording/mixing engineer for music, then make whatever choice you do concentrate on that. If you take classes, make sure you take electives or other classes that focus in that area. If you find someone in a studio, make it a studio you could see yourself working at later.

If you need guidance in what direction to take audio job wise, find a school that will give you a broad overview of possible audio jobs without putting you in debt for the rest of your life. Schools are also a great way to not only get your foot in the door with local artists/engineers and workers, but you can also use your fellow students as help or even turn them into your first clients.

If you are the kind of person where you are ok with jumping into a session right away, are very driven (read "eat, sleep, dream and live music/audio), and can work without pay for a little white, jump right into a studio and get involved!

[Wolfsschanze]

What would you guys recommend in terms of universities that would be great for getting a degree in Electrical Engineering with hopes of doing sound design, acoustics etc. more on the technical side. My dream job would be to design speakers or pro audio equipment for top names such as Neve, Adams, and UAD.

[mowmow]

I recommend Beeklee College of Music. You can learn deep and wide about music as well as music production and engineering. I especially enjoyed ear training courses. They have many different ear training courses and in the end you are able to listen to any type of music and write down every single notes and sounds in the song to full score. Be able to analyze music really helped me in real world IMHO.
Beeklee force you to have your main instruments which helped as well.

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

Originally Posted by Wolfsschanze

What would you guys recommend in terms of universities that would be great for getting a degree in Electrical Engineering with hopes of doing sound design, acoustics etc. more on the technical side. My dream job would be to design speakers or pro audio equipment for top names such as Neve, Adams, and UAD.

Carnegie-Mellon University usually sits in the top tier, and it's graduates seem to get placed in good jobs.

[Jim Williams]

Originally Posted by mowmow

I recommend Beeklee College of Music. You can learn deep and wide about music as well as music production and engineering. I especially enjoyed ear training courses. They have many different ear training courses and in the end you are able to listen to any type of music and write down every single notes and sounds in the song to full score. Be able to analyze music really helped me in real world IMHO.
Beeklee force you to have your main instruments which helped as well.

I got the same training at my local Community College for $500. It was unique at that time as there were only 5 students in the harmony classes and 5 in ear training/site singing. Stage band was a blast too. Once I got to Cal State, it was amateur hour.

Lee Berk's place is very expensive, like Harvard rates. It's only for those occassional students with gobs of their parent's cash to spend or those lucky enough to get a scholarship. I know, my sister in law teaches there.