Running a TUBE MIC thorugh a TUBE PRE necessary?

[mexicola]

This thread makes me want to vomit. I can't believe I read the whole thing. The idea that putting a tube mic into a tube pre is not ideal is ridiculous - depends on the mic, depends on the pre, depends on if you think it works for the sounds you're recording. The idea that there are steadfast rules in recording is ridiculous. BTW, the sonic characteristics of tube pre's vary greatly and the same for tube mics. A good mic and a good pre ought to do an honest job capturing the performed audio, tube or not, so that on playback it sounds like the performance.

To the OP - You need to find what works for you and make up your own mind as to what you like. Don't listen to people's opinions. Try out as much gear as you can and form your own opinions. Make a judgement based on your own experience with audio recording as to what you think will work best for your situation. Being a recording engineer is a lifelong pursuit of knowledge and understanding. The more you learn the more your tastes will change...and with it your gear.

[Tommy like sound]

[QUOTE=Sounds Great;4326739]Hi Tommy, the C1 does not have a tube preamp. It is a solid state preamp. The tube is applied to the compressor, and I think it may only be in the gain stage. I had the C1 in the mid 90's.

Wow you're right! I guess I should give my clients their money back. It's that darn passionate about tubes slogan that had me fooled!

Still a good sounding box even if it is full of lies!

[agent12ax7]

Tubes create both noise and distortion and compression, the more tubes in the signal chain the more noise and distortion. The trade off is that we like the tone that tubes create and very mild tube compression and distortion can be very pleasing to the ear. If you are going to use more tube gear in the chain you would best be served by using low noise and low distortion tubes. Otherwise in my opinion one may be quite happy with mainly solid state equipment in your chain and a tube somewhere along the way for flavor.

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by agent12ax7

Tubes create both noise and distortion and compression, the more tubes in the signal chain the more noise and distortion.

Sorry but I don't believe this is correct. Tubes can, and in many cases do those things, but it depends upon the design of the circuit and how hard the tube is being driven.

[hughshouse]

I have a 4060 and a K2, both with nos tube upgrades, along with 3 Peluso tube mics,
a 2247SE, a P12 and a p28. In all cases with all 5 mics they sound better to me when run thru my ADL 600 than the Ted Fletcher TF pro or an A & H 2800 series console I normally use for cueing. The ability to dial in an ohm setting between 150 - 1500 affords an opportunity to tailor the sound to fit the room- mic- voice. The small natural reduction in dynamic range the tubes offer make higher DBs possible for conversion without the use of a compressor. I have been recording acoustic music for more than 30 years (mostly Bluegrass) and there has never been and never will be a recording medium that can reproduce the real deal in all of its "non manipulated" natural harmonic beauty. I routinely work with a 1923 Loyd Loar - 1934 RB3 Mastertone and a 36 Herringbone Henderson and many other vintage instruments that Blue Ridge Mountain musicians own and play. I record them in a 40 X 24 room with a 24 ft. high wood ceilng. It took a while to find the mic and pre combinations for this room that would do justice for the world class pickers that play these vintage instruments. Tube on Tube has been the answer for me.
Hugh Sturgill

[Hardtoe]

I have a high end Thermionic Culture Rooster Tube Pre and the very inexpensive EH 12ay7 tube pre.

I do a test with all my new mics and pre's, where I record the same snippets of audio from the same position with one mono speaker as the source - I have done this with a Rode K2 recording the same signal through both pre's - the Rooster is being saturated a bit in Pentode mode and the 12ay7 is running mostly clean.

My conclusion from these tests is that both pre's sound good and that the 12ay7 is a steal (at about $1000 per channel cheaper than the Rooster).

Tube on tube is fine in my experience - just as long as the tube is real and not some toob effect...

Cheers

thumbsup

[rocksure]

The original poster in this thread said he had a very small budget for a preamp.....like enough for an ART Tube MP or something, so there's no point in telling him to get a Great River or a Neve or something. If he hasn't got enough of a budget at present he just wants something that will work. Ten years ago I bought my first outboard preamp.............and it was an ART Tube MP. I got some pretty useable results with it. Infact I still have it even though I now have some better preamps...........and even use it occasionally still. Not with my tube mic though, (but I do use a tube compressor in chain after a solid state pre). So I would say get a tube mp ( would make a useful instrument DI anyway) or whatever you can afford for now and then when you have some more money or a good bank manager go out and buy a high end preamp.

[Hardtoe]

or the EHX 12ay7 thumbsup

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by Hardtoe

I have a high end Thermionic Culture Rooster Tube Pre and the very inexpensive EH 12ay7 tube pre.

I do a test with all my new mics and pre's, where I record the same snippets of audio from the same position with one mono speaker as the source - I have done this with a Rode K2 recording the same signal through both pre's - the Rooster is being saturated a bit in Pentode mode and the 12ay7 is running mostly clean.

My conclusion from these tests is that both pre's sound good and that the 12ay7 is a steal (at about $1000 per channel cheaper than the Rooster).

Tube on tube is fine in my experience - just as long as the tube is real and not some toob effect...

Cheers

thumbsup

Sounds nice, that EH!

[Hardtoe]

Yah, it's a real tube pre - just light on features (though it does have phantom power and a phase switch) - the only real issue it that it is low gain, so no sm7 or ribbons on a quiet source.

On the plus side it sounds great and you can swap the tubes to mod the sound very easily....

a cool, cheap pre!

[desotoslo]

tube mic into tube pre may be too covered/dark for the tape in the old days, maybe?

i feel like now, tube mic into tube pre would be really okay on digital.

just some thoughts

[etrella]

Originally Posted by hughshouse

I have a 4060 and a K2, both with nos tube upgrades, along with 3 Peluso tube mics,
a 2247SE, a P12 and a p28. In all cases with all 5 mics they sound better to me when run thru my ADL 600 than the Ted Fletcher TF pro or an A & H 2800 series console I normally use for cueing. The ability to dial in an ohm setting between 150 - 1500 affords an opportunity to tailor the sound to fit the room- mic- voice. The small natural reduction in dynamic range the tubes offer make higher DBs possible for conversion without the use of a compressor. I have been recording acoustic music for more than 30 years (mostly Bluegrass) and there has never been and never will be a recording medium that can reproduce the real deal in all of its "non manipulated" natural harmonic beauty. I routinely work with a 1923 Loyd Loar - 1934 RB3 Mastertone and a 36 Herringbone Henderson and many other vintage instruments that Blue Ridge Mountain musicians own and play. I record them in a 40 X 24 room with a 24 ft. high wood ceilng. It took a while to find the mic and pre combinations for this room that would do justice for the world class pickers that play these vintage instruments. Tube on Tube has been the answer for me.
Hugh Sturgill

hey!!! i just wanted to know what the p12 sounds through the adl 600......was thinking of buying both....if you can pleased post a sample....thanks

[Neale Eckstein]

This notion that you can't put a tube mic through a tube pre has been one of those old chestnuts that I just have not found to be true. I regularly put an M149 through a Vipre and sometimes add a TT CL-1B. That's a lot of tubes in a row, but for some vocalists it sounds wonderful. That being said, I rarely put my Soundelux E47 through the Vipre unless I'm looking for a very dark sound, but that mic sounds great through the original GR preamps w/transformer for many people. I don't have an ADL, but I'm about to get a pair Peluso P28s and I can run one through the Vipre and tell you what I think.

Neale Eckstein
Fox Run Studio

[deda]

Originally Posted by B.Rupe

My initial assertion to the original post is that the answer to his question is "yes". A tube mic through a tube pre IS necessary, provided that is the sound you desire or, ina good way accidently discover. Groove 9028 is asking a question that, essentially has no right answer. As wrong as it is for me to say "yes" it is also wrong for anyone to say no. Or that some technique that they would not use is wrong or incorrect.
Groove 9028 is presenting a question that is indicative of someone who is developing an interest in the process of recording. And he will most likely come to his own finite conclusion regarding tube mics and tube pres as his involvment continues over the years.
I boldly encourage Mr. Groove9028 to experiment with this combination, along with any other combination, or universally considered incorrect method. Because, speaking as a musician and producer, thats where the art is.
If Colombus had not had a revisionist mind, the world would still be flat.

I welcome the opinions of any or all of gearslutz members.

Well my opinion on this:
"If Colombus had not had a revisionist mind, the world would still be flat."
And then just maybe the Native American would still have his homeland as well.

The tube to tube to tube to tube would be a Platinum selling Grammy winner in the right hands and the right gear with the most important part of the chain "The Talent" any day of the week.

I get the most stunning recording's from mine and others vintage guitars with my Lomo 19A19 on the 12th fret and my innerTUBE MM-2000 Mag Mic in omni as a room ambient mic, in a great sounding room and always through my tube micpres. Either through my early Groove Tube MP1's,stunning, my unmodded V72's, stunning, quite and accurate as hell, my pair of Vipres "Nuff Said".

Then there's my "1934 Gibson Roy Smeck Stage De Luxe" with the Lomo 19A19 at 10:00 8" above the 12th fret, 12" from where it cross's the center of the sound hole, across the bridge, across the entire top of the guitar and aimed at the end pin in the side of the guitar. The explosive voice of the guitar from the sound hole, the attack of my nails and the sustain of all sustains, then the incredible resonance of the guitars 75 year old top is there in all it's glory, stunning is over used but correct.

Then the innerTube MM-2000 Mag Mic in omni 12' away and both mics run through my Marquette Audio Labs Dual V72's modded with the 56db gain.

Oh my god, this sound would end any argument about tube to tube. I can crank the Mag Mic just a tidge and it feels like your being crushed by the damn guitar. Makes you want to attack back again and again but one cannot reach the attack threshold physically that the Roy Smeck can handle. But it's damn fun trying and it makes one feel he's the Lomo with your face smack in front of the Smeck with Tony Rice ripping it.

In closing in other apps when a compressor's needed I use the same chain and use my Groove Tube Glory Comps 1st and my 2nd choice is Aspen Pittmans 1st Compressor the Groove Tube CL1S, it's a badass.

Additionally, I like tubes a bunch and I've a cherry pair of 1081's, 1064's, Calrecs,
1272's, API 512's and all this gear is damn good no argument there, they kill. But they can't touch the above setup I described with a tube mic or no tube mic.

Frank Zappa would turn over in his grave if he could with any talk of rules and would get up outta that grave if he could and kick said rules makers ass as well.

Hell "It's Good If You Like It"

Regards ,,deda,,

[Karloff70]

I like your style, deda

[B-sharp]

Hey Groove,
There is no reason what so ever not to use a tube-pre with a tube mic. (assuming it is of good quality.) That said, some of the most sought after preamps are solid state!

Check out this thread if you haven't already discovered it:
Golden Age Project Pre73

I have a really decent Peluso tube mic and the GAP Pre 73 sounds really fantastic with it! Like I can't believe this thing isn't at least a thousand dollars fantastic! (It sells for around $300.)

Cheers and good luck!

[keyzzz]

The presonus mp20 is two solid state channels with DI, will give you a decent sound with your tube mic. Used, 250-300.
BTW, deda, great post...

[Yfoiler]

Originally Posted by B-sharp

I have a really decent Peluso tube mic and the GAP Pre 73 sounds really fantastic with it! Like I can't believe this thing isn't at least a thousand dollars fantastic! (It sells for around $300.)

+1 on the GAP Pre 73. I have a pair and they are indeed awesome....not for the money...just awesome. The only complaint I have with them is the rack for mounting two. If you get that "tray" they no longer meet the 1U high spec. They are the thickness of the rack tray too thick so you either have to mount them all the way at the top or all the way at the bottom. (War knows about this...)

[mbvoxx]

Ok, I've read thru this entire thread looking for a simple answer and there doesn't appear to be one. Everyone has a different application, a different set of circumstances and different equipment. Yes, they did it the way they did it in the old days and yes we do it different nowadays...that doesn't mean there is one hard and fast rule that applies to all. One thing I DO agree with within this thread is that there are no rules. If there were we'd probalby all still be using outdated technology. I have often wondered if it's of any sonic advantage to run a good tube mic thru a good tube mic pre, because I have both and do that with some mics and not with others. This question came up for me when I added the Innertube mod to my U87ai last year. With the tube mod the 87 was so hot that running it thru my 737 was obvious overkill. So I checked with the guys at Innertube and their answer was: yes, I am overprocessing the 87 by putting it thru the 737. They recommended I run it thru the LINE input of the 737 or direct into the DAW input. I did that (direct into the DAW mic input) and it solved my issue. But I still run other tube mics thru the 737...the E47 and RFT AK47 sound great with the tubed mic pre...GREAT. So I suppose the short answer to the OP is this: If it works for you then do it. You'll know right away if it doesn't.