patch bay or pro tools?

[waveterm]

you are going through multiple AD/DA conversions.

Yes, your sound will suffer more than using a high quality patchbay.

WT

[capellino]

thats sounds about right..i thought of that but i thought that since i have high quality converters that i wouldnt be a problem
i have 32 ins and out.
so i need i patchbay with 32 in's and out's
but the thing is that the apogees have dsub cables
do i need to get a custom patchbay? or one with xlr?cause i dont want to put a xlr to trs cable ..even that i have mogami cables..i want the signal to get straight as possible to pro tools
hope you undestand what i mean.
i am greek and my english are a little rusty

[waveterm]

There´s nothing wrong with TRS-connectors and patchbays as long as you get highquality stuff.

However, a XLR patchbay is big. It would take up 8HE in a rack to do 32 in/out Protools and 32 in/out outboard.

Using a Bantampatch, you can get down to 2HE.

TRS will be 4HE.

Also, you would need to figure out if you need to use your outboard micpres´s XLR inputs for actual microphones. Then, going the TRS or Bantam route would be cumbersome and you´d need adapters going from XLR female to TRS/Bantam

Your english is fine..

WT

[fabricaudio]

Hi capellino


I will use apogee's too and i am going probably with an xlr patchbay, it is big but i will not do any soldering. I think waveterm is right the last route in the chain will be the apogee's, you dont need to convert all the module to digital. you can follow analog the path you want and then go to the apogee. this is what i am going to do


Nikolas

[capellino]

do you know any good xlr patch bay brands?they cost way more that the trs patch bays right?

[fabricaudio]

Have a look at my thinking here and people's responses


Fabric Audio - Studio Construction




I am going to choose neutrick plugs and cordial cables so the quality will be good. The construction is totally LEGO, so i will avoid soldering. Yes they may end up taking a lot of space, but i can replace any of them whenever i want and i can expand it very easy.



Nikolas

[capellino]

and another thing..cause i dont know much about patch bays
i searched for bantam patch bays...and i think this is a pretty good one right?

NEUTRIK NPPA-TT-E56 - Greek International Cyberstore

the thing is that it sais half normalled..dont i need a normalled patch bay?
to tell you the diffrence i never get the diffrence between normalled and half normalled patch bays..and i read some articles but still dont get it much

[fabricaudio]

I have read about these (normalling and half normalling) I am not an expert too. The whole idea of normalling is how they are connected inside, and what the jacks will do if you plug them. My idea with the xlr is simplicity, so you just make a route from mic to micpreamp, to eq, to comp, and convertor, like a chain. If you dont want eq for example you plug the output of the mic preamp at the inout of the comp, etc. My thinking is very basic and it works, it just takes the double space on the rack, the thing i was worried was the signal loss, but by using good quality components it will work fine. No matter what a patchbay is an extra mile for the signal instead of going to converters, so TT of XLR patchbay are the same in terms of ''signal loss''.


Nikolas

[capellino]

so if it is the same thing.. why buy the xlr patch bay and have a whole rack dedicated to the parchbays when you can buy an trs patchbay and have only 2hu ..?to tell you the truth i am not a big fan of compressing and eqing while tracking..but i want to have the luxury of doing it when i want..specially when i ll have more expirience over the years and know how to operate my hardware to the fullest of their capabilities

what about the neutrick patch bay i send you in my previous reply..have u seen it?i have seen lots of studios using this,,and it has 48 ins and outs..so its perfect for me..
but i dont know about the normalled/half normalled thing...if i should buy a normalled or half normalled patch bay

[capellino]

i am so comfused guys
look at this from the neutrick site

Neutrik - Audio - NPPA 96 Bantam (TT) Jacks

there are so many
some say full normalled
others say bottom row half normalled
others say top row half normalled

i dont get it..why there are so many? which one should i buy ?

[fabricaudio]

Yes i have seen it, i have bought a similar one from there

NEUTRIK NPPA-TT-S TT-PHONE 96 - U.K. International Cyberstore

and it is sitting in his box, unopened and probably i am not going to use it because i want to avoid soldering, even if i could get Dsub at the back, i will end end up with hanging cables in the desk waiting for future use (i want to avoid that)

As i said i not an expert, so i am trying to do it with a more simpler way. Yes the xlr patchbay will take more space. I have 16 channels of preamps at the moment, so 2u racks for in-out, 2u racks for in-out on the eqs, 2u in-out for the comp's. Plus 1u rack for 16 xlr mics coming from the live. So at the moment i will dedicate at least 7 u racks for the cable management as you see. But the console desk i am designing can accommodate about 114 u racks, so i am quite flexible. I may do it very detailed than using a TT but i want to able to do the same if i will buy more preamps. I have total 32 mic inputs from the live to the control and now i am going to use only 16, so i can do whatever i want in the future.


Nikolas

[fabricaudio]

Sorry i meant 102 u rack, i made a mistake on counting


Nikolas

[capellino]

man..ellinas eisai?

[Mr_David]

The difference between normal and half normal is the way in which the normal connection is broken.

You have two rows of jacks.
The top row is connected to bottom row. no patch chord required. This is the same for NORMAL and HALF-NORMAL.

Now if you patch into the top row with a patch chord in a NORMAL configuration, you now have the signal on the patch chord and it DOESN'T go to bottom row.

HALF NORMAL works differently..
If you patch into the TOP row with a patch chord, you have the signal on the patch chord, AND it DOES still go to the bottom row. Effectively you now have a "copy" of the signal. one goes to the bottom row. and another goes on your patch chord.

Useful for taking a split of your signal. Most times you will want a half-normal connection.

[capellino]

this happens if the top or bottom row is half normalled? or both rows?

[capellino]

guys thanx for all your help
but i am so comfused..i never played with a patch before
and i suck at conecting things

hope you can answer me this

i have 48 channels of apogee convertion
3 x ad16x
3 x da16x

i have 23 chanels of mic pre's (16x neve 073,focusrite red1.avalon.tubetech,mileenia)

10 channels of eq's (ssl,api , manley,)

8 chanells of compressors (manley,uad,empirical labs.dbx)

how many patch bays do i need?

will this be ok?
NEUTRIK NPPA-TT-E56 - Greek International Cyberstore

cause it has 48 channels
from what i have read in the neutrick site..the bottom row of this is half normalled..is that ok?

and guys..i would really appriciate a connection diagram

i never connected a patch bay
but i guess that

mics>preamps>patchbay>apogee
compressors>patchbay>apogee
eqs>patchbay apogee

from all of my hardwares i will take the outputs and connect them to the patchbay's inputs
and then from my patchbay outputs to my apogee's inputs
and from my apogee's outputs to my hardware inputs

something doesnt sound right but but anyway..please tell me if i am wrong.
and again..if you find a connection diagram that explain it simly it would be great

thank you all in advance

[Mr_David]

Originally Posted by capellino

this happens if the top or bottom row is half normalled? or both rows?

Well you can't have one row normalled or half normalled by itself.
It need's to be normalled TO something.

Just think of normalling as something that will save you patching obvious things.

eg.
tape outputs -top row
desk monitor ins- bottom row

now WHAT a pain it would be if EVERYTIME you wanted to set up a session, you had to plug in 24 patch cables from your tape machine to the monitor ins of your desk.

Half-normal has the added bonus of being able to send a signal to two places. The only time you wouldn't want half-normal is where you definately wouldn't be splitting a signal to two places. eg. mic lines. Although it's still perfectly useable if it is half-normal.



Set up normalling for things that you know you'll get fed up of patching all the time.

Some other tips:

Outputs on top row.
Inputs on bottom row. Makes sense signal wise yeah? Signal flows from something IN TO something.

Also, do a search for some ssl patchbay chart or a neve. Give you an example of a standard way of doing things