Tantalums....

[ajcamlet]

bout 25 years old. used in power distribution in Amek Angela A10 modules....

Replace?

[tINY]

For power decoupling caps, I wouldn't bother until the first one lets go.



-tINY

[jensenmann]

Originally Posted by tINY

For power decoupling caps, I wouldn't bother until the first one lets go.



-tINY

that´s exactly why I would bother. When they fail they will short the rail to ground. This will heavily load the PSU. Not exactly what you want to happen for a longer period. It might happen that you dont even realize the fault for quite a while but then things can get funny.
recap!

[dualflip]

Originally Posted by jensenmann

that´s exactly why I would bother. When they fail they will short the rail to ground. This will heavily load the PSU. Not exactly what you want to happen for a longer period. It might happen that you dont even realize the fault for quite a while but then things can get funny.
recap!

I have an MCI JH-500 i replaced all the tantalums in the audio path for electrolytic, we are talking 2 caps per module. Regarding the logic section of my console and decoupling caps, i replaced them for new tantals. I recommed you do the same thing, those things can easily blow up after some years.

[tINY]

If the short to ground is a big concern, maybe you should replace them with an electrolitic and a parallel MPE.




-tINY

[living sounds]

Tantalums in the audio path can be a good thing, replacing them with electrolytics might change the sound in a negative way. In a PSU it's a no-brainer - replace! For reasons stated above.

[Lasermonkey]

I've had to replace a couple of tantalums which had gone s/c recently; one from a Deltalab DL-4 delay and one in an ARP Omni. Both were from 1981, incidentally.

[roginator]

i replaced Tantalums in my MCI with Electrolyts and IT SOUND (Y)
also did that with URSA mayor spacestation and star gate

so no bad here just improvement!!!!!!

[Froombosch]

The Neve sound is because of the tantalums in the signal chain. Be carefull when replacing the Neve sound

Harrie

[jensenmann]

Originally Posted by Froombosch

The Neve sound is because of the tantalums in the signal chain. Be carefull when replacing the Neve sound

Harrie

Neumann compressors ar loaded with tantalums and don´t have that Neve sound at all. How´s that possible?

[living sounds]

Tantalums need to be correctly biased to work well in audio applications. And, as always, it depends on the circuit.

[Froombosch]

Originally Posted by jensenmann

Neumann compressors ar loaded with tantalums and don´t have that Neve sound at all. How´s that possible?

Just be carefull not to throw away the baby with the bathing water... tutt

There is good story on the usenet on a engineer that switched the tantalums for electrolytics and almost got fired because the compressor did not sound like a neve anymore.

[memphisindie]

Originally Posted by jensenmann

Neumann compressors ar loaded with tantalums and don´t have that Neve sound at all. How´s that possible?

It depends on where they are.

Rupert stated that he had a chance to change the Tantalums in the audio path to other materials, but, decided to test first and found that the Tants created a "pleasing even order harmonic distortion", so, he left them in, hence the Neve sound.

[roginator]

soooo

tanltals are neve sound

i dont buy it!!!

[living sounds]

Originally Posted by roginator

soooo

tanltals are neve sound

i dont buy it!!!

Part of it definitely.

[memphisindie]

Originally Posted by roginator

soooo

tanltals are neve sound

i dont buy it!!!

No one should ever put all their eggs in one basket and I bet Rupert didn't either.
Why even make such a statement?
Do you know how Tantalum sounds in the audio path of a circuit, can you describe it?
I don't buy it that it's the WHOLE sound either, but, it is definitely part of it.

[Bluzzi]

That would be nonsense in my opinion. Anyone that has heard a NEVE 1073 ect. and/or built a clone will attest that its mostly the transformers and the gain stages that affect the sound. Yes the tantalums affect the audio but nowhere in the amount the transformers do.

Jim

[memphisindie]

You can say it's nonsense all day but Rupert Neve said it isn't. I will agree with you that the Xformers have a MUCH bigger effect. The only place the Tantalums would have much effect is in the early stages of preamplification, probably not as much in later stages.

[Jim Williams]

For power supply uses, replace them with the tantalum substitutes like Nichicon HE or Panasonic FM, they are 1/3 the impedance of tantalum and will work better. You can also increase the values a bit as well.

As to audio path usage, I don't care for capacitor distortion. Tantalums spit in a not so pleasant way. Unless it's used in an aural exciter type of application, like older Neve gear, they won't add anything.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[DONNX]

r

Originally Posted by Froombosch

Just be carefull not to throw away the baby with the bathing water... tutt

There is good story on the usenet on a engineer that switched the tantalums for electrolytics and almost got fired because the compressor did not sound like a neve anymore.

Its true. Neve needs the tantalums for its sound in the 33609 at least. There was a guy trying to sell an original 33609, and he could never sell it for 5K on Ebay for a Friken year!!! Which is a great price for an original 33609. I have seen all original non molested 33609s sell for 6.5K or more. Why it didn't sell? He took out all the tantalums in the comp. Thats one piece of gear you don't want to take out the tantalums... Any 33609 guru will tell you the same. Don't mess with the tantalums in a neve 33609 or any neve limiter.


U87s. Loaded with tantalums. The ones build in the late 60s to 70s. Quite a few guys take them out and put electrolytics instead. I did so with mine based on a pro's recommendation that is was safe to do. Sounds better and cleared things up... So I guess it depends on the gear.

Now my question is this for you techs. I got a mid 80s GML 8200. I think its time to recap. Each eq card has 3 tantalum caps. 33uf 10v and 2x 33uf 25v's. Should I replace those with Panasonic Fms or Nich HE's? Or keep the tantalums in? I am not sure if that is part of the late great 8200 sound or not. And I sure don' want a bad tantalum cap killing my IC on each card one day.

Thanks for the help!

[Radiance]

Originally Posted by DONNX

Now my question is this for you techs. I got a mid 80s GML 8200. I think its time to recap. Each eq card has 3 tantalum caps. 33uf 10v and 2x 33uf 25v's. Should I replace those with Panasonic Fms or Nich HE's? Or keep the tantalums in? I am not sure if that is part of the late great 8200 sound or not. And I sure don' want a bad tantalum cap killing my IC on each card.

Thanks for the help!

It would help if you told us what purpose these tants are serving...don't know the gml 8200 by hard and I'm too lazy to do a search....

[DONNX]

Originally Posted by Radiance

It would help if you told us what purpose these tants are serving...don't know the gml 8200 by hard and I'm too lazy to do a search....

Sorry man. I have no clue but a few things. They are on all the eq cards. Total of 10 eq cards for this stereo 5 band eq. All I do know if the Electrolytics are used for local power filtering because GML said I didn't have to replace them after this unit being 25 ++ years old. Not signal. There are many film caps made by Wilma on the eq cards, I assume for the eq-ing side of things. And then you have the 3 tantalums per card. One tantalum is tied to a group of resistors. The other two are located near the output pin connector of each card. Each card also have a proprietary GML opamp like an api 2520 without the black goop to hide the parts. Then you got the Pots, an IC chip, a trim control (blue square thing with a white screwdriver knob) and nothing more.

Hope that helps answer my question. Thanks thumbsup

[Radiance]

Originally Posted by DONNX

Sorry man. I have no clue but a few things. They are on all the eq cards. Total of 10 eq cards for this stereo 5 band eq. All I do know if the Electrolytics are used for local power filtering because GML said I didn't have to replace them after this unit being 25 ++ years old. Not signal. There are many film caps made by Wilma on the eq cards, I assume for the eq-ing side of things. And then you have the 3 tantalums per card. One tantalum is tied to a group of resistors. The other two are located near the output pin connector of each card. Each card also have a proprietary GML opamp like an api 2520 without the black goop to hide the parts. Then you got the Pots, an IC chip, a trim control (blue square thing with a white screwdriver knob) and nothing more.

Hope that helps answer my question. Thanks thumbsup

Well, if they're in the audio path as suggested by GML and you're worried about changing the sound you could always replace them with new tants :-)

[DONNX]

Originally Posted by Radiance

Well, if they're in the audio path as suggested by GML and you're worried about changing the sound you could always replace them with new tants :-)

Here ya go. I just got the info. The tantulums are used for local power filtering on each bandcard (±18V rails), plus the 33uF/10V for feedback loop LF gain-margin and DC performance. I was informed that the 33uf 10v is very unlikely to pose a problem. But the two 33uf 25v could possibly need replacement in time from wear and age. So what do you all recommend? I swap out the old tantalums with new identical replacements to have a piece of mind? Or put some low esr electrolytics?

Thanks

[Radiance]

replace power filtering tants with electrolytics.
Feedback loop tant is in the audio path so that's up to you.
I would say electrolytics all the way but it's your peace of mind.....

[roginator]

Originally Posted by Radiance

replace power filtering tants with electrolytics.
Feedback loop tant is in the audio path so that's up to you.
I would say electrolytics all the way but it's your peace of mind.....

[DONNX]

Originally Posted by Radiance

replace power filtering tants with electrolytics.
Feedback loop tant is in the audio path so that's up to you.
I would say electrolytics all the way but it's your peace of mind.....

Hey, you the best! THANKS for the help. But I have one last question. I am being told that a direct value swap from the tantulum to a low esr electrolytic is not avisable. I don't understand why this is so.

"Yes, the 33uF/25V's are the most failure-prone component; preemptive replacement is not a bad idea, since the failure mode is well known (low-ohmic fault), even if the wearout mechanism is not. However, if changing to another dielectric, a direct swap (value-for-value) is not advisable. A low-ESR electrolytic of roughly 3x capacitance or a metallized film cap of 0.5x capacitance with a small-value series resistor (<10 ohms) would be the most direct equivalent options; however, other methods could certainly be appropriate."GMLtech

Why is a the tech telling me that I should x the value by 3 if I use a electrolytic? .33uf x 3 =1uf right? Or using a metallized film x.5 =.165uf. Yea I could ask the tech. But I want second opinions from fellow slutz . Thats all. Instead bombarding the tech for these questions.

Can anyone help me understand why if I take out a tantalum cap, and put a electrolytic low esr. I must times the value by 3? And not use the same value?

Thanks


thumbsupthumbsupthumbsup

[tenor39]

At the risk of bringing this up again... ALL PS caps are in the signal path, even indirectly. The DC PS rails are modulated by the amplifiers, be they IC's, tubes, or transistors, to increase voltage and/or current gain. To look at the PS as seperate from the signal path is a misnomer. What you use for PS decoupling will affect the sound of a device just as much as a signal coupling cap will. Thanks. Goodnight.

[Froombosch]

Originally Posted by tenor39

At the risk of bringing this up again... ALL PS caps are in the signal path, even indirectly. The DC PS rails are modulated by the amplifiers, be they IC's, tubes, or transistors, to increase voltage and/or current gain. To look at the PS as seperate from the signal path is a misnomer. What you use for PS decoupling will affect the sound of a device just as much as a signal coupling cap will. Thanks. Goodnight.

+1 thumbsup

[Radiance]

Originally Posted by tenor39

What you use for PS decoupling will affect the sound of a device just as much as a signal coupling cap will. Thanks. Goodnight.

Well, I dare to say that a cap in the audio path will affect the sound more than a cap used in the PSU or for power decoupling....if at all...

...personally I think it's all nitpicking...or ant ****ing as we use to say in the Netherlands ;-)