Why not use Ethernet for Audio?

[AudioWonderland]

Originally Posted by 5thString

I think you're right. The ethernet protocole doesn't garantee the order of the packages, nor does it garantee that all the packages will be delivered.

TCP/IP does guarantee delivery but does so with a mechanism of resending packets that don't arrive on time. Not terribly useful for real time audio.

[LaoTzu]

read previous posts it wouldnt be using tcp/ip it would be using a different protocol designed for audio

[tINY]

Originally Posted by LaoTzu

read previous posts it wouldnt be using tcp/ip it would be using a different protocol designed for audio

...and then you loose the advantage of a widely-used standard....



-tINY

[bogosort]

Originally Posted by tINY

Most IP clients require a substantially more complicated driver (always had good luck with ethernet printers?). And, most computers only have one ethernet port that is often used for communicating with the world. Any critical audio would need its own port and it's own network - and you really only see this in serious, high-dollar studios.

IP clients don't require a driver -- the OS handles that -- but IP isn't necessary for a LAN, this would be strictly Ethernet (also taken care of by the OS). NICs are dirt cheap and you can add as many as you have PCI/PCIe slots. You don't need a serious high-dollar studio to add another network to your system; a $60 NIC and a $60 8-port switch give you a server-quality, high-reliability network for 8 devices. (You'd probably be fine with a $10 NIC and a $20 switch.)

I don't see the downside to Ethernet I/O for audio. I designed and implemented a custom Ethernet protocol for work and I'd guess it's easier and quicker to do than developing a USB or Firewire interface.

[bogosort]

Originally Posted by tINY

...and then you loose the advantage of a widely-used standard....

Don't mean to pick on you here, but Ethernet is as widely-used a standard as TCP/IP. A better way to think of it is that TCP/IP augments Ethernet; if you don't need the extra capabilities that TCP/IP provide, then you can leave them out of the equation.

[tINY]

Originally Posted by bogosort

Don't mean to pick on you here, but Ethernet is as widely-used a standard as TCP/IP. A better way to think of it is that TCP/IP augments Ethernet; if you don't need the extra capabilities that TCP/IP provide, then you can leave them out of the equation.

Can you give me an example of a commercial product that uses 10/100baseT without TCP/IP?



-tINY

[LaoTzu]

Originally Posted by tINY

Can you give me an example of a commercial product that uses 10/100baseT without TCP/IP?



-tINY

focusrite rednet its built on a different protocol. yet still using a ethernet connection

[DAW PLUS]

Originally Posted by Jimmy B

And of course, 2 years later this comes out...

RedNet

Rednet is the product series from Focusrite. It uses the Dante network protocol, created by Audinate and integrated in audio hardware solutions by companies like Yamaha, Digico, Allen & Heath, Dolby Lake, Lan Gruppen etc years ago, usually in high level live concert environments.
Audinate offers ASIO & CoreAudio drivers for use with a standard ethernet card.

Rednet is most likely high priced due to high quality conversion, Audinate licensing and so far no standalone conversion competition.

[LaoTzu]

Originally Posted by DAW PLUS

Rednet is the product series from Focusrite. It uses the Dante network protocol, created by Audinate and integrated in audio hardware solutions by companies like Yamaha, Digico, Allen & Heath, Dolby Lake, Lan Gruppen etc years ago, usually in high level live concert environments.
Audinate offers ASIO & CoreAudio drivers for use with a standard ethernet card.

Rednet is most likely high priced due to high quality conversion, Audinate licensing and so far no standalone conversion competition.

this is a great opportunity for someone to undercut them and sell to another interface company.

[PRH]

Ravenna audio over IP: RAVENNA - Why Audio-over-IP

Also see Merging Technologies

[tINY]

So, a proprietary interface - which probably costs more than $0.25 per unit to license....

Ethernet cables make a great analog cable too, but I don't see that in widespread use.



-tINY

[PRH]

According to the Ravenna web site:

Unlike most other existing networking solutions, RAVENNA will be an open technology standard without a proprietary licensing policy.

[LaoTzu]

wheres the motion in the ocean behind getting this up and running as a standard connection on interfaces?? i could use my laptop with this setup.

[tINY]

Originally Posted by PRH

According to the Ravenna web site:

This looks like a different way to do audio streaming over RTP to me. It still requires a full NIC on the "soundcard" side.

Again, for large, expensive systems, it'll work great. But, how are you going to build something that will handle a full IP code stack into a $200-300 audio interface?




-tINY

[Richard Crowley]

Depends on what we mean by "Ethernet for Audio".

• Do we mean using the RJ45 network port between our 24-channel mic pre/ADC portable box and our laptop?
• Do we mean using UTP (or STP) Cat5/6 between device?
• Do we mean tapping into the venue's intranet traffic to route audio packets?

Maybe only the third (and worst-case) definition would need a full IP stack implementation.

AudioRail and several others are commercial examples of the second case.

There are several commercial examples of the third case, but high fidelity and data integrity require communication methods that create significant latency (seconds or even minutes). Most radio remotes are done over IP anymore.
For that matter lots of broadcast-quality HD video is transmitted in "near real-time" (several seconds of latency) over the public internet. I work with an organization that feeds more than a dozen broadcast transmitters over the public internet.

But I would like to see some audio devices that use the first case. We have that high-bandwidth digital interface just sitting there unused most of the time (because we more often than not are using WiFi or some 4G solution for actual data internet connectivity.)

[PRH]

Originally Posted by tINY

Again, for large, expensive systems, it'll work great. But, how are you going to build something that will handle a full IP code stack into a $200-300 audio interface?

At any given price point, who can say?

But surely microcontrollers/embedded IP stacks are now not that costly? I mean, there are any number of cheap network routers/modems/firewalls which run embedded Linux systems. Couldn't such an embedded solution be made to stream audio I/O in a similarly inexpensive package?

Anyway, it's emerging technology. Let's wait and see!

Paul

[tINY]

The real winner in terms of wide-market audio recording is the "plug my interface into my ethernet port" crowd. I am not aware of any device that uses an ethernet port to connect a client to a host PC....

I would like to see something on that front.




-tINY

[Richard Crowley]

IP stacks complete enough to talk to a public ISP are pretty commonly available open-source for many popular microcontrollers these days.

[bogosort]

Forget IP, let that be another product for a faster Internet (remote recording, yay). The 1st case that RCrowley mentioned -- ADC box interfacing to computer via Ethernet -- should be the goal right now, and that doesn't need a routable protocol. Ethernet is simple, ubiquitous, and cheap!

Can you give me an example of a commercial product that uses 10/100baseT without TCP/IP?

Well, every Ethernet hub ever made. In the industrial world there are tons of devices that are on Ethernet, WiFi, and 900 MHz LANs that don't have IP stacks specifically so that they can't be routable.

[LaoTzu]

someone do it maybe if we could have some interface guys in the know comment here and say they will build one that would be amazing is anyone up for emailing rme or focusrite for a cheaper model. something like an all in one 8 mic pre package with 16 ins and outs with two hi z xlrs. all phantom and all metered. for around 600 to 800 with ethernet of course. they would be sold out and nearly every studio would have one. if the converters were neutral and of good quality too.

anyone with me on this?

[Richard Crowley]

I fear that those RJ45 ethernet connectors on laptop computers are going to disappear soon in favor of the various wireless networking options available. All of those larger connectors are being replaced by smaller (and faster) newer options.

I think Thunderbolt is the high-speed interface of the future. That is where we should be looking for high track-count interfacing to computers.

[DAW PLUS]

Originally Posted by tINY

The real winner in terms of wide-market audio recording is the "plug my interface into my ethernet port" crowd. I am not aware of any device that uses an ethernet port to connect a client to a host PC....

I would like to see something on that front.




-tINY

But there already is. Get any Yamaha mixer (01V96) with a Dante expansion card, and you connect it to your system's ethernet card. You get a free Dante Virtual Soundcard ASIO/CoreAudio driver, and off you go.

The new Yamaha CL consoles for example - in this case aimed at live recording - come with Dante interfacing, Dante Virtual Soundcard and Nuendo Live. In this case, the mixer feeds Nuendo Live directly with audio streams for recording over ethernet, while the stageboxes use ethernet as well. Nuendo's playback (though not used intensively here) is fed to the console as well.
Also works with the 01V96's as a small studio console/interface.

[tINY]

So, I can plug my computer into the CL with an ethernet cable and record the streams? If so, that is the interface we are wanting...




-tINY

[DAW PLUS]

Yes, you can. And there are more mixers out there that can do this, Allen & Heath has a few Dante enabled units as well. You can even use a Dolby Lake processor as an ethernet interface...

[ray_subsonic]

Just to keep a bit of perspective on this, this Technology has been floating around for 2 years, and it's well Road-Tested by now. Audinate have licenced the Technology to : Allen & Heath (iLive Console), DiGiCo, EV, Focusrite (Harman), Lab.Gruppen, Midas, Peavey, Turbosound, Whirlwind, XTA, and Yamaha.

If you use a Yamaha CL, Allen&Heath iLive or Midas Pro-2, then you can stream multi-channel audio from a computer over Ethernet to the console via Dante. No interfaces or proprietary Technology are involved. It works. Expect to be hearing a lot more about this in the future.

[rolandk]

The company that I work for has been designing and manufacturing networked audio for 10 years and counting. Biamp Professional Audio Systems

[Psychlist1972]

Originally Posted by tINY

Again, for large, expensive systems, it'll work great. But, how are you going to build something that will handle a full IP code stack into a $200-300 audio interface?

Many microcontrollers these days have on board ethernet, USB and other protocols like CAN (for cars), SPI (chip to chip) I2C (also chip to chip, generally) etc. The most expensive ARM chip from STM is around $12 for quantity 1.

For heavy duty perf, you can externalize the ethernet, but that's still cheap.

Pete

[tINY]

All these new networking IC's...

I don't get to work with these established, cheap, easy, communication links. I am vaguely aware of some of the MIPI stuff for phones and tablets. You will be able to do location recording with high-end tablets in 4-8 years...

I get the easy SPI / I2C / (SMB?) connectivity to the ADCs. I was not aware of the ethernet stack on the other side - some kind of peer-to-peer protocol would be possible for cheap. But what about the computer side? I'm not aware of how you'd have to change/deal with drivers on the laptop.


-tINY

[ScalpedAlive]

I've been researching this for a couple days and after looking at Audio Impressions, and Dante, I found an open standard-based one called Ethersound. Which is FREE. (But only works on Windows 32-bit and 64-bit!)

Ethersound

I think I'm going to try this out in my home studio to link the DAW in the live room (garage) to the DAW in my control room (upstairs office). They're already on a gigabit Cat-6 ethernet.

This should be fun. I'll report back with the results!

[frankencat]

Ever hear of Aviom system? Its digital over cat 5 I believe. We have these in our church and I swear I hear a latency with regard to signals coming through the system. Also our setup is series so one goes down and all the rest downstream go down as well. It works but it could be better. Not sure if this is relative to the OP however..

Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2