D&R Series 4000 Console: recap, mods & maintenance suggestions?

[hanuman]

Why not ask the builder, Duco?
d.derijk@d-r.nl

[LindanManor]

Thanks hanuman, sounds like a good place to start. I'll email him and post his suggestions in this thread should I get a reply.

Any suggestions from other experienced users or techs are most welcome!

[vsr600]

Hey I have this same board. When I first got it I spent about 2 months re-building the power supply, re-capping everything, and re-chipping everything. I went for stock parts cause it seemed to not like it when I put hotter running chips in it. The power supply can be real finicky since it's such a simple circuit and when I tried burr browns in the master section it would blow the rectifier or catch the fuse resistors on fire...
Also if you got any spare parts with the board that you don't need, hook me up! I'm desperately searching for some back plates, blank channel strips, ribbon cables, the original legs (it's on a quick-lok stand now), and maybe 4 channel strips...

[LindanManor]

Thanks for the info vsr600. Just a couple of follow up questions if you don't mind.

Is your board functional now after replacing the available electronics?

What op amps did you end up going with?

Can you go into some of the specific replacement choices you made?

Were you satisfied with the improvements?

When I decided to grab the D&R 4000 a year and a half ago, there seemed to be a reasonable amount of parts available from D&R and on the open used market. After 20+ years on the market, I have to say I was quite surprised there was much at all. I haven't explored the used/aftermarket lately but from the email response I received from Christian Klems at D&R (Duco is on vacation), it's clear things are getting thin at the manufacturers end.

This was Christian Klems at D&R's response regarding replacement parts:
"Some of the op amps might not be available anymore and are replaced by newer versions. Switches, potentiometers, knobs and faders are no longer stock items and some of them are even not available anymore"

I plan to email him back regarding recommendations for replacement op amps. I'll post his recommendations when I get his response.

vsr600, I wish I could be more helpful as far as the specific parts you are looking for, but the only items I have that won't be used is the built in patch bay cables and harnessing. I may be able to send you one of the back plates to use as a template if you plan to have some custom made. If I come across any of the items your currently looking for, I'll send you a heads up.

Cheers,
Danny Scott

[vsr600]

Hey to answer your questions:

Originally Posted by LindanManor

Is your board functional now after replacing the available electronics?

Yes finally! when I got it, it was in pretty bad shape and the -18 rail wasn't
working at all in the power supply (which turned out to be a short in the master section).

Originally Posted by LindanManor

What op amps did you end up going with?

I went mostly stock to get the board running in the first place...
I used LM348N, TL074CN, and NE5532N in the master section
Also TL074CN, LF347N, and LF353N's in the channels.
Be careful when swapping stuff out not to confuse opamps with comparators. I learned that the hard way, the LM339N's are comparators and are used for the meters on the master section. Also the little chips that drive the meters in the channels are WAY obsolete and I wasn't able to find a suitable replacement (if you find one let me know).

Originally Posted by LindanManor

Can you go into some of the specific replacement choices you made?

The only other things I replaced were all the fader caps and all the electrolytic capacitors with mostly Nitchicon's if I remember right..
There was some kind of mod done on the outputs of the board before I got it but I'm not sure what it was since it's not documented well and I can't really tell that much of a difference. It looks like they just put +4dB going to both the tips and the rings so if you plug a regular 1/4" TS cable it'll still work at +4. Also there's grounding jacks for what looks like a star grounding scheme that used to be in the board but the cables for it are long gone...
Also I completely rebuilt the power supply with beefier rectifiers and smoothing caps.

Originally Posted by LindanManor

Were you satisfied with the improvements?

yes it works now!

Good luck finding parts man, a few people bought all them up a couple
of years ago and I've been searching hard for a while now with no luck...
The switches are Alps and are still available but a real pain to switch out and you might not be able to find the same colors or button styles. The pots are made by Omega (I think is the name) and they won't let you make small orders of odd ones...

How much of that patch bay do you have? Mine was all clipped when I got it... if it's the TT bay that came in some boards I may be interested.
Also which back plates do you have extra? If you have an extra master plate that would be awesome. Also if you have a left over channel plate I'd love to buy that from you so I can use it as a template... pm me with details.

[justanalogue]

Hi Danny,

try to contact these people: DSA, Disco Service Apeldoorn home
they are servicing D&R desk for a long time.
Also MoFli recordings
they have sometimes spares for all kinds of consoles.
Both located in The Netherlands though...
Guess you found your way to the D&R site for the manuals and schematics...

Best regards,

Willem.

[LindanManor]

Thanks for the detailed info vsr600. Congratulations on bringing your D&R console back from the dead and making music again. The "It's Alive" moment must have been magic!

Based on your experience and the advice that Duco from D&R has offered, it looks like I'll be staying with the manual as far as replacement electronics are concerned. I'll replace any ic's possible and rebuild/refurbish the power supply, but I think I'll leave the board caps alone for now and see where that gets me. My soldering skills can fluctuate from average to atrocious so I'm glad to avoid trouble as much as possible with those single sided pcb's.

Here is the response Duco de Rijk (the D&R creator and founder) graciously offered regarding my inquiry into switching op amps, replacing caps and other common mods or maintenance possibilities on this console.

Dear Danny,

My opinion about recapping is, do not do this. It is a lot of work, possibly damaging to the pcb's (single sided!) and the results are minimal.
New Ic's could possibly help and only on places where gain is above 20dB.
On the other hand most newer IC's draw a lot more current, that the power supply can not handle.
So my suggestion is enjoy the console as it is and have some nice dinners with the left over money.

Kind regards / vriendelijke groet
Duco de Rijk

Thanks again vsr600 and Duco de Rijk for your generous contribution of time and knowledge. Ya gotta love this place!

Every good wish,
Danny Scott

[LindanManor]

Thanks very much for the site suggestions justanalogue(Willem).

It looks like MoFli Recordings come in and out of D&R stuff on an ongoing basis. It could come in handy as it seems they're located right in the regional hotspot for used D&R parts.

I'll PM vsr600 with this contact info as well, as I know he's currently looking for some specific parts.

Much appreciated,
Danny Scott

[CE_Music]

Originally Posted by vsr600

I went mostly stock to get the board running in the first place...
I used LM348N, TL074CN, and NE5532N in the master section

Hi there
Where did you use the LM348N in the master channel?
I own a D&R 4000 series MKII for 3 weeks now....I got it cheap but with a non-working master module...I mostly got the master restored (wrong inserted op-amps, shorts on the board), but I still struggle to get the meters working...I will replace the Quad-comps there since the manual says it should be LM339N but the ones that are in there say sth. totally different....

[Matt Syson]

Hi CE

(I will replace the Quad-comps there since the manual says it should be LM339N but the ones that are in there say sth. totally different....)
There are equivalents to the LM339N so unless you know that they are incorrect you don't necessarily need to change them. I don't understand what you meant by sth. ST make LM339 equivalents.
I would disagree with the comment about not changing caps if the existing ones are not long life high temperature units already as the 85 centigrade 'cheapies' do degrade over 20 years. Do not bother with 'fancy' 'audiophile' types though.
I have just recapped a desk of 21 years age and now the channels sound similar to each other and it is possible to look for the other 'niggles' without worrying if it is simply the caps failing.
Matt S

[CE_Music]

Originally Posted by Matt Syson

Hi CE

(I will replace the Quad-comps there since the manual says it should be LM339N but the ones that are in there say sth. totally different....)
There are equivalents to the LM339N so unless you know that they are incorrect you don't necessarily need to change them. I don't understand what you meant by sth. ST make LM339 equivalents.
I would disagree with the comment about not changing caps if the existing ones are not long life high temperature units already as the 85 centigrade 'cheapies' do degrade over 20 years. Do not bother with 'fancy' 'audiophile' types though.
I have just recapped a desk of 21 years age and now the channels sound similar to each other and it is possible to look for the other 'niggles' without worrying if it is simply the caps failing.
Matt S

Hi Matt
Nice to met you here....
I mean the imprint on the IC is not LM339N...Its only numbers...Don't know which right now...I will check that again...
Am I right thinking that the Master/Monitor Modul would be the one to start with re-capping? I am afraid it is quite time consuming...to do the whole board at once...I thought of getting the master and the power supply (especially phantom power) done and then do it channel by channel and listen...a difference should be audible, shouldn't it?

Best regards

[Matt Syson]

Hi CE


I mean the imprint on the IC is not LM339N...Its only numbers...Don't know which right now...I will check that again...
It may be that they bought in preselected chips and had them marked uniquely, something you can do if you buy 100,000 at a time! If they are all the same across the desk then they are probably correct. The gargraphs are misbehaving so try fitting a couple of LM339 and see if it works.
Am I right thinking that the Master/Monitor Modul would be the one to start with re-capping? I am afraid it is quite time consuming...to do the whole board at once...I thought of getting the master and the power supply (especially phantom power) done and then do it channel by channel and listen...a difference should be audible, shouldn't it?
Yes monitoring as you want to hear any other improvements. Then Master, quickest way to get at least some improvement, then go to channels where you could 'experiment' if you wish.
The power supply should be done too, perhaps first, as you don't want it to be even slightly unreliable.
Matt S

[vsr600]

I agree with Matt. Before I worked on anything on my board, I pretty much had to replace every component in the powersupply to get it working 100% again and then I went on to fix the master section.

[LindanManor]

Considering starting maintenance festivities off on my D&R Series 4000 console with a recap of the power supply. As this kind of project is a first for me, I'm looking for suggestions as to what can or should be replaced and with what components.

Thought a picture might be helpful for real analysis of the unit so I've included one here.

Any input as it relates to maintenance on the board in general is also welcome as the goal is to get this baby back in the best sonic condition possible. Thanks for taking a look!

Cheers,
Danny Scott

[Matt Syson]

Hi
Hmmm, nice fire you had there!
You could simply replace all electrolytic caps for new and away you go.
I would prefer to go to larger capacitance 'computer' or other long life high ripple current types for the ones that appear to be 'doubled' on the board. These would have to be mounted differently but there is plenty of space. The rectifiers have already been replaced by the look of it so part of the work is already done. If mounting caps off the board you should wire it correctly to minimise 'ripple'. This is a subject covered in elementary supply design but sometimes ignored. Simply take a wire from the rectifier then to the cap terminal, then on to the board and NOT simply 'extending' the cap wires from the board to the new cap position. Subtle in application but not in effect.
Good luck
Matt S

[LindanManor]

Thanks kindly for the helpful input Matt. Some of it's a bit over my head right now but I'm catching up fast. There's smoke coming off my Google browser! (ripple current, rectifiers, cap terminal, mounting caps off the board...)

The 3 alarm blaze on the circuit board was fortunately before my time. It took me a little off guard when I saw it but I guess they created some kind of work-around for the damage as the power supply has worked fine during my ownership.

I have a couple of follow up questions if anyone is game:

Is there a way to measure the condition of the big main caps in the power supply or is it generally recommended that they be changed just as the other caps are?

Aside from caps, what other components would you recommend changing in the power supply? (There's a picture of the power supply in my previous post)

Cheers,
Danny Scott

[Matt Syson]

Hi
The main caps appear to be 4700uF and either 35 or 50 Volt (I can't read it easily).
I would suggest replacing them but rather than simply fitting like for like, uprate the capacitance to say 15,000uF 40 Volt (or more voltage). Perhaps go to 22,000 uF 40Volt.
These would be larger 'can' style so get clips for them and bolt them somewhere suitable, preferably not next to the rectifiers or heatsinks as these will obviously get 'hot'.
Take the + terminal from the rectifier (the 4 pin things bolted to the backplate) and go to the + terminal on your new cap. Take another wire from the + terminal on the new cap to the place where the + terminal of the rectifier is going at the moment (orange wire from what I can see).
Now do similar with the negative terminal from the rectifier, to the cap negative then to the board (currently blue wire).
Repeat for the other rectifier / cap arrangement.
You will be removing the original orange and blue wires but if uou are smart you can leave them connected at the board end and swap it to the capacitor terminal instead, saving the rewire into the PCB.
Simply replace the caps for the phantom supply as there is not much to be gained by fitting much larger versions. Replace the other caps on the board like for like but go for 105 Centigrade types for longevity.
Get a multimeter if you don't have one and check that the output voltages are correct BEFORE hooking it up to the desk again.
PM me or post more pics if you are unsure.
Matt S

[CE_Music]

My Power supply did work when I got it except for phantom power....but it probably shouldn't have because I ended up changing one of the trimmers, both lm 723 (the IC)...one 2n 3055 (the transistors with the heatsink on the backside of the unit)...and two resistors....all of these parts weren't working properly or not at all....
The funny thing though was that the caps were in good condition...But I changed them anyway...
Best regards
Daniel

[djbrown]

hey LindanManor,

could you tell me how much you paid for your 24 channel D&R Series 4000 MKII console?

this looks like a cool esthetic mod to these boards:

http://images04.olx.it/ui/4/60/68/f_...-9f2952da.jpeg

[miro]

Hey guys,

I just wanted to say Hi, since I owned this console myself for several years.
Seeing this thread brought back some nice memories..

thumbsup

[djbrown]

hey there,

i have a chance to pick up 24 tracks D&R 4000 series mkII version has just been cleaned and serviced.... the guy is asking for $2500
is that a good price for canada local pickup or its too much you think?

[Voodoosound]

Hi,

I have spare channelstrips, mastersection, ribbon cables etc for D&R4000

Just let me know what you need and maybe we can work something out.

Paul

[Harris Johns]

my master section is dead and I have no clue why. the pfl led is on and the meters have a permanent -23 reading. I would be thankful for ideas or even a cheap replacement. I bought the 50 channel frame with 36 channels new in 1986. pretty good desk!

[Voodoosound]

Originally Posted by Harris Johns

my master section is dead and I have no clue why. the pfl led is on and the meters have a permanent -23 reading. I would be thankful for ideas or even a cheap replacement. I bought the 50 channel frame with 36 channels new in 1986. pretty good desk!

I have 2 working mastersections as spare 1 is for a 4000 and the other one for a 4000MK2.

Send me a pm if you are interested.

Paul

[Goldfain]

Hi everyone,

ok, the tread is a couple years old already, but still very helpful for a D&R newbe like me I had been offered a D&R 4000 MK 2 desk a couple of weeks ago and after an intensive research (unfortunately never heared about D&R before) finally bought it this weekend. The console spent a couple of years in a cellar, so I am cleaning it right now intensively. Everything works fine except the dead AUX1 and some minor pfl/subgroup issues, that dissappear after reattaching the ribbon cables.

Unfortunately, the 4000 series manual i downloaded from D&R site doesn't cover some features of MK2. There's a button called "sub-master" close to the pan of the monitor section. It looks like, it has something to do with the floating subgropus. I spent an hour trying to figure out, what exactly this button does, but nothing changes when i push it. Any ideas?

Thanks and regards from Berlin

Simon

[Logan]

I'm looking for advice on hooking up the DA outputs of a SSL madi AX to a D&R 4000. The 4000 has no 1/4 ins to the main channel and the line switch just converts the XLR in to unbalanced for line input, as near as I understand. It does have 1/4 inch ins for the remix section. I have never used this console so I know squat about it and even less about electronics. I just moved it in today so haven't had time to figure anything out

The SSL has Dsub outs in groups of 8 and I'm trying to decide which snakes to get to hookup the D&R. The remix in has a TRS in but its wired so as the tip and ring deliver -10 and +4. What happens if you just stick a balanced TRS jack in there?

I'm just using the D&R for mixdown the SSL AD ins are hooked up to my outboard pres, Can anyone give me advice on how to hook the SSL outs to the D&R channels? Should I buy dsub to male XLR and hook them up to the XLR ins and run them as mic ins or line ins or should I get Dsub to 1/4 TRS and hook them to the remix in, and does it blow up if I do that, lol , see I told you I know nothing about electronics, , And will it be a balanced in this way? If I use the xlr in and run it in mic setting will I have huge gain staging problems? If anyone can take pity on me and set me straight I would be eternally grateful. Which way would make the channel strip more functional? Take care Logan

[muziekschuur]

Service of Broadcast Mixing Consoles

[Ike Zimbel]

Hi,
You definitely do not want to stick a balanced TRS plug into the remix jack. If you do decide to use those inputs, you need to get a custom made DB-25 ->TRS snake that is A) unbalanced and B) uses a TRS plug, but leaves the Ring unconnected.
I would have to see the schematics to see if the XLR input actually unbalanced the input in the Line mode, or just padded it (which is far more likely). So, I think you are probably better off with DB-25 to Male XLR snakes. If you can borrow one to try it, that would answer your question for sure.
Best,
Ike

[Logan]

Ike thanks for the reply, Here is a link to the manual

http://www.d-r.nl/Service%20Parts/4000seriesManual.PDF

It contains schematics, it does say it creates an unbalanced line input when you engage the line switch, but I'm sure you'll know way more about this than I do. If you get the time to have a look I'd appreciate it.

I see you are in Toronto about three hours from me, nice to know there's some one who is tech savvy somewhere semi near by. I see you service a fair amount of gear I own. I'm so useless at the electronic end of this stuff there's likely work in your future. Again thanks for the info. Take care, Logan