Upgrage/substitute for NE 5534N op amp?

Engine Room · 5th September 2007, 12:30 AM

I'm sorry for not digging through the archives because I'm sure this has been answered before.

I'm recapping the master section in my console and figured while I was ordering parts I'd get new or upgraded ICs. But the NE 5534N isn't available and the NG version is 52 days backordered and I can't seem to find anything comparable on Newark's site. I tried digi-key, but I really have trouble navigating their site. I don't do this often enough to be an expert in op-amps....

Any references would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

/Dirty Doug

boxymoron · 5th September 2007, 01:44 AM

You might want to do a search, I'm sure it's been discussed before. Also, search the diyAudio.com - audio projects by fanatics, for fanatics forums, a lot of good info there too. From what I gather upgrading to faster opamps can create problems such as oscillations and exceeding the power supply current capacity, although 5532's are already pretty current hugry. Oscillations can be a problem even with bypass capacitors because of parasitic capacitances, especially if you add sockets to a originally unsocketed design. 5532's are bipolar-based, so I guess it makes sense to use bipolars for upgrades. There's also the issue of offset voltages, if the opamps are directly coupled to the next stages. These offsets keep adding up in subsequent stages (and gain multiplied) robbing headroom (by raising the dc level), but shouldn't be an issue if the stages are capacitor coupled. I am currently working on an 80's Souncraft 200B and I'm thinking about upgrading opamps too. Btw, is it ok to use regular contact cleaner to clean pots and faders? Maybe use lubricant afterwards? There's a member called Jim Williams that works on consoles hopefully he can chime in.

mikeg · 5th September 2007, 03:27 AM

Swapping opamps is a whole 'nother can of worms. I would try/start with the OPA2134, in one channel. Then see if you like it. There are at least 5 different amps that could be used and each has it's own issues/sound/bypass requirements for best sound/blah blah.

Don't spend a lot of money until you have what you want. Experiment.

boxymoron · 5th September 2007, 06:14 AM

OPA134 is indeed a very good (audio) opamp. For ultimate performance check out the OPA627 (very expensive) and this link: High Speed Amplifiers (Greater than equal to 50MHz) Product Home from Texas Instruments

Those are used for DSL applications and are orders of magnitude faster and less noisey than the typical audio opamp. I'm pretty sure you can get samples from TI for free. Also, some of these don't come in a DIP package, they're surface mount only, in this case the only way is to get an adapter socket, but soldering SMT components requires special equipment and a very steady hand.

Some time ago I built a discrete class A complementary Darlington preamp and used the OPA134 as the buffer. Noise was practically unmeasurable, but the problem I had was a nasty oscillation at very high frequencies I think it was ~ 170KHz. The only way I could get rid of it (in addition to bypassing with ceramic caps), was to solder it directly on the pcb, instead of using a socket. Another thing to keep in mind is that some opamps are not stable at unity gain, so make sure that's not the case in your circuit. Btw, I just finished cleaning and testing 16 modules on the 200B.

Noise with 16 channels assigned and with gain at 40dB was -96dBFS (A weighed). Doing a star ground mod can lower it ~12 more dB's!!

Just because a circuit doesn't measure as well spec-wise doesn't mean it won't sound good. Many people swear by the 5532, claiming it has a less harsh distortion than the "better" opamps. Same thing with the TL072 and others.

Jim Williams · 5th September 2007, 04:32 PM

5534's from TI are available from Digi Key. You don't want them, trust me.

There are several subs you may get away with, depending on whether the circuit has local feedback compensation and local psu bypass caps. First try the new National LME49710, lower noise, low bias current, very low THD. The BB OPA134 is another but has a zippy top end that is irratating over long sessions. Another one if you like fast is the LT1357. Another one that's very good is the new BB OPA211 and the FET version OPA827, a better part than the BB OPA627. The 627 is a dry sounding part that's not good sounding and it's too expensive.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

boxymoron · 5th September 2007, 07:54 PM

I dont' mean to hijack this thread, but... I have a question for Jim.

A few modules in my console (Alps 728M/743M types) have "scratchy" faders. That is the actual travel of the fader feels scratchy, but they don't sound scratchy. I am thinking of dissasembling one, but it seems that they might not assemble back after the procedure. Is this possible to do? It looks like the whole thing is pressed together. Also, is it ok to use regular contact cleaner on the resistive surface? Does it need to be lubricated afterwards (lithium grease or something)? Any other tips would be greatly appreciated.

Jim Williams · 5th September 2007, 10:11 PM

If you want to waste one, take it apart. That way you can see what the problem is. Getting them back tight may require some glue. They are so cheap I would just replace them unless a squirt of cleaner helps. You can get conductive plastic TKD faders for around $40.

All those opamps mentioned are single package parts, don't mix them up with 5532's, OPA2134's which are duals. A good new part to sub a 5532 that has similar bandwidth is the AD8599 from Analog Devices. It's very low noise (1 nv) and low THD. Surface mount only so you need an Aries or Brown Dog header. This one is pretty much a drop in for the 5532 like the Analog Devices OP275 but better. Get 'um all from Digi-Key, 1-800-digikey or
Digi-Key Corporation - USA Home Page

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

MsM · 6th September 2007, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

5534's from TI are available from Digi Key. You don't want them, trust me.

...<snip>...

Interesting. Whats up with them? (Thinking of the DIP ..AP / ..P versions) Any other brands that might be useful and available in DIP? (Fortunately I have some Signetics from old days.)

beats workin' · 7th September 2007, 03:39 AM

Hey Jim,
I swapped my 5532s for the OP275 a few years ago and really enjoy the improved bandwidth. Console also has no problem with the newer chip. what is it about them that you dislike?
thanks,
David

Jim Williams · 7th September 2007, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MsM

Interesting. Whats up with them? (Thinking of the DIP ..AP / ..P versions) Any other brands that might be useful and available in DIP? (Fortunately I have some Signetics from old days.)

The Signetics and Philips TDA1034 versions are considered the best ones. They are 1976 vintage so they are out of date, opamp wise. No, they don't need replacement like caps or tubes unless they have degraded from original specs. An upgrade to a newer device is highly recommended like the National, BB or LT parts. You wouldn't run a Commodor 64 or an Apple 2 today would you? That's how old these designs are now.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

Jim Williams · 7th September 2007, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beats workin'

Hey Jim,
I swapped my 5532s for the OP275 a few years ago and really enjoy the improved bandwidth. Console also has no problem with the newer chip. what is it about them that you dislike?
thanks,
David

They actually don't have greater bandwidth, they have faster slew rates. Noise is higher than a 5532AN. The AD8599 is an improved replacement with much lower noise and THD. It has a similar bandwidth and therefore is pretty safe as a 5532 drop in. Wideband stuff is hit or miss depending whether the circuit has the required stability components installed and the layout is friendly. I liked the OP275 back in 1989, but there are now much better choices available now. Try them, the same smile when you installed the 275's will appear again!

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

Brad McGowan · 7th September 2007, 04:14 PM

Jim turned me onto the LT1357 and I really like their sound. They are very clear and fast sounding and seem to have a very wide bandwidth. I've also used the Burr Brown OPA604/2604, but those seem to a have a bit of low mid warmth that you may or may not like depending on the circuit.

Brad

beats workin' · 8th September 2007, 03:04 PM

so I gather that I should experiement with:
5532 gets the AD8599
5534 gets the National LME49710, LT1357 or BB OPA211

1. for the 5534, which of these might be the safest to drop in without stressing the circuit? Soundworkshop 34c

2. Jim, can you explain the difference between the BB OPA211 and the FET version OPA827?

I'll pick up a few and try them on a channel and report back. Ideally the master section would be next.
interesting...... and dangerous.......... hmmmmmm
david

Jim Williams · 8th September 2007, 04:16 PM

The OPA211 and 827 are a new class of silicon/germanium transistor opamps. They have very low noise and good bandwidth. Low THD is a spec they improved. You will need adaptors as they are S08 packages. I would use LT1357's for the summing amps.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

JohnRoberts · 8th September 2007, 04:48 PM

The 1357 looks like an interesting topology but added input stage complexity and LTP degeneration appears to cause slightly higher input noise than 5532. While noise in summing bus is typically dominated by program, in a faders down listening test for noise, these may not do as well in that specific comparison.

I am typically suspicious that inordinately high slew rate parts may be gamed for nonlinear sample and hold applications, this part looks like it will be well behaved at audio frequencies, so my primary concern is limited to slightly more noise than part it is supposed to replace.

JR

12Bass · 10th September 2007, 10:49 AM

Another possible replacement for the NE5532 is the LM4562. In my experience, it is more open-sounding than the AD8599 (which is also a nice chip, but a bit warmer). The LT1358 (dual 1357) sounded good, but didn't wow me compared to the LM4562. BTW, if the rails are higher than 17V (up to +/- 22V), there is the new LME49860.

SuperTorus · 10th September 2007, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

The OPA211 and 827 are a new class of silicon/germanium transistor opamps.

Germanium? These are silicon devices!

Nils

Jim Williams · 11th September 2007, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperTorus

Germanium? These are silicon devices!

Nils

Analog Technologies; Semiconductors, Digital Signal Processing | Texas Instruments

These are silicon/germanium. Check them out.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

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5th September 2007, 12:30 AM	#1
Engine Room Gear nut Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 116	Upgrage/substitute for NE 5534N op amp? I'm sorry for not digging through the archives because I'm sure this has been answered before. I'm recapping the master section in my console and figured while I was ordering parts I'd get new or upgraded ICs. But the NE 5534N isn't available and the NG version is 52 days backordered and I can't seem to find anything comparable on Newark's site. I tried digi-key, but I really have trouble navigating their site. I don't do this often enough to be an expert in op-amps.... Any references would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. /Dirty Doug __________________ The Engine Room, Indianapolis

7th September 2007, 04:14 PM	#12
Brad McGowan Lives for gear Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 4,210	Jim turned me onto the LT1357 and I really like their sound. They are very clear and fast sounding and seem to have a very wide bandwidth. I've also used the Burr Brown OPA604/2604, but those seem to a have a bit of low mid warmth that you may or may not like depending on the circuit. Brad __________________ Little Red Wagon Studios http://www.myspace.com/lrws How to integrate your analog tape deck with your DAW: http://www.youtube.com/user/redwagonstudio

8th September 2007, 04:48 PM	#15
JohnRoberts Lives for gear Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Hickory, MS Posts: 878	The 1357 looks like an interesting topology but added input stage complexity and LTP degeneration appears to cause slightly higher input noise than 5532. While noise in summing bus is typically dominated by program, in a faders down listening test for noise, these may not do as well in that specific comparison. I am typically suspicious that inordinately high slew rate parts may be gamed for nonlinear sample and hold applications, this part looks like it will be well behaved at audio frequencies, so my primary concern is limited to slightly more noise than part it is supposed to replace. JR __________________ John Roberts www.CircularScience.com

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5th September 2007, 01:44 AM	#2
boxymoron Gear nut Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: next to NYC Posts: 134	You might want to do a search, I'm sure it's been discussed before. Also, search the diyAudio.com - audio projects by fanatics, for fanatics forums, a lot of good info there too. From what I gather upgrading to faster opamps can create problems such as oscillations and exceeding the power supply current capacity, although 5532's are already pretty current hugry. Oscillations can be a problem even with bypass capacitors because of parasitic capacitances, especially if you add sockets to a originally unsocketed design. 5532's are bipolar-based, so I guess it makes sense to use bipolars for upgrades. There's also the issue of offset voltages, if the opamps are directly coupled to the next stages. These offsets keep adding up in subsequent stages (and gain multiplied) robbing headroom (by raising the dc level), but shouldn't be an issue if the stages are capacitor coupled. I am currently working on an 80's Souncraft 200B and I'm thinking about upgrading opamps too. Btw, is it ok to use regular contact cleaner to clean pots and faders? Maybe use lubricant afterwards? There's a member called Jim Williams that works on consoles hopefully he can chime in.

5th September 2007, 03:27 AM	#3
mikeg Gear nut Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Minnesota Posts: 108	Swapping opamps is a whole 'nother can of worms. I would try/start with the OPA2134, in one channel. Then see if you like it. There are at least 5 different amps that could be used and each has it's own issues/sound/bypass requirements for best sound/blah blah. Don't spend a lot of money until you have what you want. Experiment.

5th September 2007, 06:14 AM	#4
boxymoron Gear nut Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: next to NYC Posts: 134	OPA134 is indeed a very good (audio) opamp. For ultimate performance check out the OPA627 (very expensive) and this link: High Speed Amplifiers (Greater than equal to 50MHz) Product Home from Texas Instruments Those are used for DSL applications and are orders of magnitude faster and less noisey than the typical audio opamp. I'm pretty sure you can get samples from TI for free. Also, some of these don't come in a DIP package, they're surface mount only, in this case the only way is to get an adapter socket, but soldering SMT components requires special equipment and a very steady hand. Some time ago I built a discrete class A complementary Darlington preamp and used the OPA134 as the buffer. Noise was practically unmeasurable, but the problem I had was a nasty oscillation at very high frequencies I think it was ~ 170KHz. The only way I could get rid of it (in addition to bypassing with ceramic caps), was to solder it directly on the pcb, instead of using a socket. Another thing to keep in mind is that some opamps are not stable at unity gain, so make sure that's not the case in your circuit. Btw, I just finished cleaning and testing 16 modules on the 200B. Noise with 16 channels assigned and with gain at 40dB was -96dBFS (A weighed). Doing a star ground mod can lower it ~12 more dB's!! Just because a circuit doesn't measure as well spec-wise doesn't mean it won't sound good. Many people swear by the 5532, claiming it has a less harsh distortion than the "better" opamps. Same thing with the TL072 and others.

5th September 2007, 04:32 PM	#5
Jim Williams Lives for gear Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: beautiful Carlsbad, CA Posts: 5,306	5534's from TI are available from Digi Key. You don't want them, trust me. There are several subs you may get away with, depending on whether the circuit has local feedback compensation and local psu bypass caps. First try the new National LME49710, lower noise, low bias current, very low THD. The BB OPA134 is another but has a zippy top end that is irratating over long sessions. Another one if you like fast is the LT1357. Another one that's very good is the new BB OPA211 and the FET version OPA827, a better part than the BB OPA627. The 627 is a dry sounding part that's not good sounding and it's too expensive. Jim Williams Audio Upgrades

5th September 2007, 07:54 PM	#6
boxymoron Gear nut Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: next to NYC Posts: 134	I dont' mean to hijack this thread, but... I have a question for Jim. A few modules in my console (Alps 728M/743M types) have "scratchy" faders. That is the actual travel of the fader feels scratchy, but they don't sound scratchy. I am thinking of dissasembling one, but it seems that they might not assemble back after the procedure. Is this possible to do? It looks like the whole thing is pressed together. Also, is it ok to use regular contact cleaner on the resistive surface? Does it need to be lubricated afterwards (lithium grease or something)? Any other tips would be greatly appreciated.

5th September 2007, 10:11 PM	#7
Jim Williams Lives for gear Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: beautiful Carlsbad, CA Posts: 5,306	If you want to waste one, take it apart. That way you can see what the problem is. Getting them back tight may require some glue. They are so cheap I would just replace them unless a squirt of cleaner helps. You can get conductive plastic TKD faders for around $40. All those opamps mentioned are single package parts, don't mix them up with 5532's, OPA2134's which are duals. A good new part to sub a 5532 that has similar bandwidth is the AD8599 from Analog Devices. It's very low noise (1 nv) and low THD. Surface mount only so you need an Aries or Brown Dog header. This one is pretty much a drop in for the 5532 like the Analog Devices OP275 but better. Get 'um all from Digi-Key, 1-800-digikey or Digi-Key Corporation - USA Home Page Jim Williams Audio Upgrades

7th September 2007, 03:39 AM	#9
beats workin' Lives for gear Join Date: May 2004 Location: New York City Posts: 544	Hey Jim, I swapped my 5532s for the OP275 a few years ago and really enjoy the improved bandwidth. Console also has no problem with the newer chip. what is it about them that you dislike? thanks, David

8th September 2007, 03:04 PM	#13
beats workin' Lives for gear Join Date: May 2004 Location: New York City Posts: 544	so I gather that I should experiement with: 5532 gets the AD8599 5534 gets the National LME49710, LT1357 or BB OPA211 1. for the 5534, which of these might be the safest to drop in without stressing the circuit? Soundworkshop 34c 2. Jim, can you explain the difference between the BB OPA211 and the FET version OPA827? I'll pick up a few and try them on a channel and report back. Ideally the master section would be next. interesting...... and dangerous.......... hmmmmmm david

8th September 2007, 04:16 PM	#14
Jim Williams Lives for gear Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: beautiful Carlsbad, CA Posts: 5,306	The OPA211 and 827 are a new class of silicon/germanium transistor opamps. They have very low noise and good bandwidth. Low THD is a spec they improved. You will need adaptors as they are S08 packages. I would use LT1357's for the summing amps. Jim Williams Audio Upgrades

10th September 2007, 10:49 AM	#16
12Bass Gear Head Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 34	Another possible replacement for the NE5532 is the LM4562. In my experience, it is more open-sounding than the AD8599 (which is also a nice chip, but a bit warmer). The LT1358 (dual 1357) sounded good, but didn't wow me compared to the LM4562. BTW, if the rails are higher than 17V (up to +/- 22V), there is the new LME49860.