High end line arrays: do you think somebody can afford them?

[Wavebourn]

Hi there;
I made new speakers and wander if somebody can afford them if I start manufacturing. The problem is, for such results I need to spend about $900-$1000 on parts/materials only. Add labor here... They contain 2 sides (stereo), each consists of 2 sections, 16 Ohm each (8 Ohm if paralleled). Total power (4 sections) is 960 W RMS, 2.88 KW max power. Sensitivity is about 100 dB /W /M

Folding speakers, 60 inch total height, very close driver cones, Kapton cone speakers, high temprature square wire coils, strong magnets.

Power tapering and frequency response patterns of selected drivers were used to minimize comb-filter effect on higher frequencies.
As the result, they:

- Minimize vertical sound dispersion such that floor and ceiling reflections
are minimized
- Maintain a wide listening area with room filling, nearly constant sound intensity
- Provide exceptional dynamic range and linear performance
- Provide higher power sound pressure levels (SPL)
- Reduce distortion as power is dispersed among several drivers
- Enable higher power handling to be attained
- Create very long nearfield for less difference of pressure levels on first and last rows of seats
- Easy to handle because of folding design (fit in a car trunk when folded) despite of big height / width ratio when unfolded.

The speakers were tested in a very reverberating club house environment and performed excellent if to compare to my previous line arrays and especially to stock speakers with 12 inch main drivers and horn tweeters. Differences were dramatical. I got one more proof of the saying "The Devil is in details".

[zilver]

Are these speakers much better than for instance the bose array speakers (MA 12) ?

They look a bit short for a line array.

I think that if they're not significantly better (sound wise) than the already available options it will be hard to find someone who would like to buy/manufacture them.

But I'm interested how this will develop because I was planning to build a small array system myself.

Good Luck, Hans

[Wavebourn]

Originally Posted by zilver

Are these speakers much better than for instance the bose array speakers (MA 12) ?

They are in different target areas (voice announcements in stationary installations against high fidelity music reproduction on concerts).

They look a bit short for a line array.

They are almost twice taller than MA12. 460W RMS VS 300W and sensitivity is about 12 dB better. It means I can cover about 5 times of square.

I think that if they're not significantly better (sound wise) than the already available options it will be hard to find someone who would like to buy/manufacture them.

They are. They are much louder and cover the entire vocal frequency band (from 60 Hz to 22 kHz while from 82 Hz only is needed). Bose's don't (from 155 Hz only - good for a female vocal without a guitar). High end limit of BOSE arrays is also too low: 12 kHz only. I don't know how they compare in band frequency response; I use special design and materials to eliminate resonances, lower their Q, and shift them on less nasty sounding frequencies (actually, on frequencies that highlight a singer's voice), while Bose uses aluminum.

I guess, Bose uses 12 small mid-range 3.5" drivers with paper cones; I use 6.5" Kapton coaxials with 1" silk dome tweeters. Initially I wanted to use ribbon tweeters, but it would be even more expensive...

Also, mine are folding in half to fit in a car trunk while Bose M12 are stationary.

But I'm interested how this will develop because I was planning to build a small array system myself.

Good Luck, Hans

Thank you Hans!

Probably I'll try to show my prototypes in local Guitar Store.

I developed them for professionals who believe in specks and trust own ears, but don't trust advertisings. So I am asking you, Pros!

[tINY]

Great idea - other people think there is a market there. Small column speakers have been out of vouge for a few years, except in very large systems that are now called line arrays.


EAW Commercial : Products : Ceiling Speakers
Shure Vocal Master PA Column Speakers




-tINY

[Wavebourn]

Originally Posted by tINY

Great idea - other people think there is a market there. Small column speakers have been out of vouge for a few years, except in very large systems that are now called line arrays.


EAW Commercial : Products : Ceiling Speakers
Shure Vocal Master PA Column Speakers

Yes, all of them are similar approaches, but the Devil is in details!

1. Dragon Tails: 15-20" between cones. Comb effect start from very critical frequencies. Yes, they can cover large squares with loud sound, but frequency characteristic is very uneven. They need to be mechanically aligned with proper curve to fire properly to the center of the large square where the sound would be best, or use cheaper means like computer control of digital delays that has to be temperature sensitive since speed of sound depends on temperature.

2. Shure columns and similar vintage designs. They did not have modern drivers with light hard cones so specs that I can achieve now were not obtainable.

3. Current production small line arrays are targeted for speech so frequency band is too narrow for music. Additional subwoofers like in BOSE case create feedback on a stage screwing down all effect of line arrays.


My goal is to build effective line arrays for traveling musicians and singers of quality of studio monitors that can cover big squares such as random clubs and open air. For open air they are powerful and sensitive; for clubs they have appropriate cylindrical wave so reflections from floors and ceilings are minimal.
I made a record on last concert directly from output of a mixer; usually speakers and room acoustic interfere much but this time the record was nice! Low distortion of many high quality speakers working with short oscillations of coils, flat frequency response, minimal reflections from ceiling and floor helped a lot!

I believe I even don't need any advertising; it is enough just to show them to performers once... But the question is, how wide is the market demand? How many performers can afford such quality?

[tINY]

The market is a fickle mistress....

If they sound good and are affordable, then you have a good shot - especially if you can get an act well regarded by other musicians to endorse them.

From a technical standpoint, the good class D amps now available should make design and manufacture easier..... and include a sub-woofer for frequencies below the planar cutoff of the main column.



-tINY

[Wavebourn]

Originally Posted by tINY

The market is a fickle mistress....

If they sound good and are affordable, then you have a good shot - especially if you can get an act well regarded by other musicians to endorse them.

From a technical standpoint, the good class D amps now available should make design and manufacture easier..... and include a sub-woofer for frequencies below the planar cutoff of the main column.

I am going to sell them with 2 x 100W vacuum tube amps.
The target is voice and acoustic guitars (no bass guitars or synthesizers that go below 60 Hz) so no need for subwoofers. However, it is possible to build folded horns to match nearfield properties of columns, but it will be too expensive...

The question is in affordability, however... As I said, parts and materials for this pair of columns will cost under one thousand already... However, I can find some manufacturer of speakers comparable to Alpine and Infinity, though without such brand name to decrease some expenses, but line arrays are anyway more expensive than one plastic bucket with 12" wofers and ceramic die glued to a horn... That sound like an empty bucket deafening people seating on the1'st row when the last row hears nothing...

If traveling singers / musicians don't want to depend on acoustic and available electronics in random halls and clubs they would buy them... The question is, how many of them, because a technology optimal for manufacturing will depend on demand (and prices, however). For example, for 10 pairs per month it is better to go with aluminum angles from Home Depot while for 100 per month cast aluminum frames will be affordable.

[tINY]

I don't think you'll sell a lot of portable speaker systems with vaccuum tube amps - espcially high quality ones that are 100w each.



-tINY

[Wavebourn]

Originally Posted by tINY

I don't think you'll sell a lot of portable speaker systems with vaccuum tube amps - espcially high quality ones that are 100w each.

Thank you Tiny!

My wife says the same, though she prefers concerts with my amps/speakers...

[tINY]

I'm sure they sound wonderful. But 50 Kg of iron and copper are not very portable without a surplus Mi-8.....



-tINY

[Wavebourn]

Originally Posted by tINY

I'm sure they sound wonderful. But 50 Kg of iron and copper are not very portable without a surplus Mi-8.....

11 lb per transformer, 3 of them, 10 kilo only...

[tINY]

That may not be too bad with the coffee-house crowd, then.



-tINY

[Wavebourn]

Today I got one more question about BOSE line arrays... One more question about BOSE..

Posmotrel tvoi speakers - vrode klassno. A chto ty dumaesh' po povodu etoi sistemy?
Bose - Products for Musicians

They use their own proprietary 2.5' drivers so -3 dB (half power) frequency coverage is from 150 Hz to 12 KHz only (though I would space them closer to each other than they do for better linearity on high frequency end).

I use 6.5" Kapton drivers with silk dome tweeters to cover frequency range from 40 Hz to 22 KHz (actually, 82 Hz is needed only for acoustic guitars so mine cover bass guitar as well if a record reproduction of jazz and rock is needed).

However, mine are heavier, it is the minus... And aluminium frame is cheaper in mass production. To extend bass they use a subwoofer that screws down the effect of a line array (long near-field for a line array VS short nearfield for a point source bass box, i.e. first rows hear loud boomy bass when last rows hear tiny sound).

The second main difference is, I principally use as less as possible of electronics processing. It means, more careful design of boxes is needed to control resonances. They designed boxes much cheaper implementing DSP for equalization that inevitably adds distortions to signal path but can't remove sharp resonances (ringings) with long decay times.

However, they will beat me if use _wider_ range small drivers (the closer are centers of speakers the higher frequency starts comb-filter effect from), but now they can't compete with my sound quality since they don't have such drivers like Alpine and Infinity do... I am free to choose manufacturers of drivers, they employ what they manufacture. Currently I try one more manufacturer's drivers with fiberglass cones... I already can cover 5 times longer halls because of higher sensitivity and power capability than Bose can, I expect even more with new drivers.

Their previous line arrays were better targeted: speech reproduction (and light background music) in stationary high reverberating environment. They performed well in churches and club houses (churches are their main consumers). This particular design they target for electronic instruments. For wider coverage they rotated drivers and lost advantages over mine since effective distance between closest drivers are now twice as more, the same I have... I don't need that since I use 2 arrays, on each side of a stage so coverage is wide as needed, and it is stereo.

Conclusion: they don't compete technically, but BOSE is a loud name, mostly among home wifes who adore their "small but bassy" kitchen radios. They are bassy because of sneaky trick with sharp resonances on low end... So, however I have to explain the differences each time somebody try to compare and choose...
But really our market targets are different. Their arrays are worse for vocal stereo systems. For guitar monitors line arrays are not needed, on-stage floor standing traditional monitors perform better. Nobody nowadays uses on-stage monitors firing to the public, but when they do, they use special guitar cabinets made for special frequency and non-linear distortions, actually they are remote decks of guitars as were genuinely designed by Fender who used to sell wooden axes without a deck but with huge separated from guitars decks standing on a stage called "guitar cabinet" that included what a wooden ax did not have: an amp and a resonating speaker box that added colorations and dynamic articulations to ax+amp+speaker sets so differences between forte and piano ware much more than just a sound pressure like in church speakers on stage BOSE sells to musicians.

Audio engineers are tired by questions, "Why you don't use BOSE systems for studio monitors"? and have to explain each time why black is black, white is white, and this colors can never be rose despite of very aggressive marketing...

[tINY]

I am not a fan of Amar Bose either.

The drivers that looked interesting to me for line arrays at the 2, 3, and 4" inverted aluminium domes (I believe aura-sound makes them).

As far as the point about the point source driver for the low end: At some point you have to give up on the line array. At 100 Hz, the half-wavelength that you need for any line array to do much good is over 5 feet - which is big for a portable system. Add to that the poor absorbtion of low frequencies in most halls and churches and you get to the point where a single woofer starts making sense.

I've loaded a system with horn-loading all the way down to the sub-woofers many times and that cabinet that works from 40-100Hz is not very portable - not without an industrial truck anyway....





-tINY

[Wavebourn]

Thanks, looks interesting.
About 63Hz Fs for 4" drivers and 84 dB /W/1M
May be good for vocal, but needs more powerful amplifiers.
Next time I am going to try something similar with a line of tweeters in front of them tightly spaced as well.
Speaking of subwoofers, I have one short horn loaded. Too heavy though fits in my Nissan Armada. Once I took it on concert to try. As the result, one magnet of 2 12 inch drivers is loose...