DC, the Studio, and Renewable Energy

[atticus]

I can assure you that this will be a somewhat strange post, but I am very curious so I will post it anyway. I have long been facinated by the concept of renewable energy, such as solar and wind power. I have also long been facinated by the idea of running a studio with renewable power. Now solar cells and wind generators are becoming more and more efficient and cheaper by the day so it's looking more and more like something I eventually will do. The issue I'm having is that most of these generators put out 24volt DC which is then fed into and inverter and AC power is created, only to be sent back into a piece of electronic equipment and converted in most cases to DC again. I am wondering about the feasibility of running pieces of equipment such as a console, and other analog gear off of a dedicated DC line in the studio. I really want to be educated on the issues this might present so if anyone could weigh in on this I would very much appreciate it. Thanks.

[Bob Olhsson]

The folks who do sound for film run everything off 12 volt batteries because the theatrical lighting used on sets will contaminate virtually all AC powered audio gear. Dealers who specialize in that market can probably help you a lot. I think several are even Benchmark dealers!

[atticus]

Bob,

Thanks a bunch!! I'll have to look some of them up.

[imacgreg]

David,
Before I moved to Santa Barbara to attend University, I worked as a lab tech at a fuel cell company in Northern California. http://www.jadoopower.com . They have pretty amazing technology, you put H2 in and get pure H20 (the waste product) and power out. No moving parts or anything, its pretty cool to see. When working as a tech, I once powered a CD player off of a test cell.

Am I the first person to ever power an audio device with hydrogen?? haha.

Anyway, they make portable fuel cells for pro cameras, but I'm sure they could also power some audio gear as well..


Ian

[atticus]

Ian,

That looks very cool!! I'm not so sure about my ability to safely handle such a highly explosive susbstance, but I'd give it a shot. I'm fairly sure that I'd combine wind and solar power to start with. I guess I'm asking about the feasibility of having a dedicated 24 volt Dc circut to power the gear installed in the studio, with seperate AC lines for guitar amps and computers and other things.

[ISPdeRuiter]

I remember a tech from Denmark by the name of Ole
Frost, running his whole studio with batteries (all self-engineered). he used to post at the VS-planet forums under the
nickname "Slowblow".

He posts every now & then at the Techtalk forum of
http://www.recording.org/ubb/ultimat...?ubb=forum;f=6

His nickname there is "Shalimar".

Maybe he can help you, dunno.


Kind regards,
ISPdeRuiter

[dale116dot7]

Well, here's my $.02 and I'm sure someone will disagree with me.

Hydrogen is not a fuel, it's an energy storage medium. You can't drill a hole in the ground and get hydrogen. How do you get it? You can split water through electrolysis, I suppose, though that's not so efficient. You can split water using metals, though there's lots of power goes into making and refining those metals. You can strip the carbon from methane, but that wastes a bunch of the energy found in the natural gas, and generates lots of carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide in the process.

Yea, hydrogen runs clean where you're using the energy but that forgets the coal-fired power plant a few cities over used to make that hydrogen.

As for solar cells and wind or water generators, those all make sense. Well, the solar cells are pretty energy-intensive to manufacture, but they still make sense.

What I think you'll need is a sine-wave inverter. Most places offering home energy generation systems should have them for running things like stereos, computers, and that sort of thing.

Good luck!

[Ted Nightshade]

My whole world is off the grid. At least at home, where the studio is. Solar, seasonal hydro, and the inevitable Honda generator for binge time.

I had a lot of trouble with the usual formulations as to how big a system do you need- for me, some days hardly anything goes on, and others, we binge 16 hrs a day for a week. So lacking a huge hydro source (ours is small, and seasonal), the generator is a must.

I had the same questions as you, Atticus, when I first started- back then I just wanted to run some tube amps off DC. I ended up with a big fat Trace Sinewave inverter, which unfortunately has some kind of ultra-high-speed switching that puts a buzz on the line. Fortunately, after tearing my hear out and going crazy for months, I found that a 50microfarad cap across the two legs of the AC solved that very effectively and inexpensively. An Equi=Tech balanced power unit didn't help at all, but I got a small one and I like to use it elsewhere when I'm on that criminally unreliable thing they call "the grid".

I went AC just because that lets you use whatever kit without customization. There is ineffeciency in conversion though, so if I could run some of the big pieces like huge tube amps off of DC, that would be a significant gain. Only thing is, I'm on 24V because my power system is a couple hundred feet from the house/studio. 12V is only useful on short runs, and you can slap a solar panel on your roof, if that's the best solar site, but what are the chances that your hydro will nicely end up 20 feet from the place you need the power?

I'm real curious about whatever you learned, so turn me on!

[atticus]

Ted,

My goal eventually is to build the world's coolest studio, and renewable energy is the intended source for power. In my research I found that converting DC to AC back to DC for use in mic pre's was pretty inefficient, so my goal is to have some pre's, comps, and EQ's built that operate on 24v and design the power system around them. I would have an inverter that could generate AC for other stuff. I am just wondering if this is possible. I was hoping a mic pre designer could chime in and help me out with this. Thanks.

[dale116dot7]

Well, I do design some mic pres but they aren't produced commercially. But I do design instrumenation circuitry and the analog design methods used in mic pres are very similar. The 24 volt feed from the home hydro system isn't likely to be always 24.00 volts, likely around 27.5 volts and maybe down to 20 volts if there's lots of load on the system. Neve style modules (as an example of a 24 volt module) are sensitive to power supply voltage and noise so you'd need a solid regulated 24 volts.

Also, most IC based mic preamps tend to use split supplies, +/- 12 to +/- 18 volts. With that in mind, I would likely need to use a DC to DC converter in the preamp (a switching power supply) if my goal was to run off of a nominal 24 volt line. These converters aren't cheap. Oh yes, also a DC-DC converter with a 48 volt output for phantom power would likely be needed too. The DC-DC converter's efficiency would be likely 85% at the light loads most mic preamps would give to the supply, if not lower. And there are the noise filters to get the switching supply noise out of everything....

I dunno but I think I'd rather get the sine wave inverter, get everything working, and record, rather than trying to mod preamps to get them to work, but that's just me.

-Dale

[Ted Nightshade]

Originally posted by dale116dot7
[B]Well, I do design some mic pres but they aren't produced commercially. But I do design instrumenation circuitry and the analog design methods used in mic pres are very similar. The 24 volt feed from the home hydro system isn't likely to be always 24.00 volts, likely around 27.5 volts and maybe down to 20 volts if there's lots of load on the system.

[B]


This is certainly so! The hydro source is designed with the idea that it's not going to be charging the batteries unless it's putting out a higher voltage than the current voltage in the batteries- so for 12 volt battery systems it puts out >12, and for 24 volt systems >24. The batteries put out different amounts depending on their state of charge- actually the easiest and most reliable way to assess the state of charge is by reading the voltage. I get anywhere from 29 V (batteries totally charged to the gills, only when fat hydro is happening) to 22 V (batteries really low, system about to shut off to protect the batteries). More normal working voltages are 26 (lots of charge, let's fire up everything at once) to 23 (either we better start turning stuff off or go fire up the generator).

[B]Neve style modules (as an example of a 24 volt module) are sensitive to power supply voltage and noise so you'd need a solid regulated 24 volts.



Also, most IC based mic preamps tend to use split supplies, +/- 12 to +/- 18 volts. With that in mind, I would likely need to use a DC to DC converter in the preamp (a switching power supply) if my goal was to run off of a nominal 24 volt line. These converters aren't cheap. Oh yes, also a DC-DC converter with a 48 volt output for phantom power would likely be needed too. The DC-DC converter's efficiency would be likely 85% at the light loads most mic preamps would give to the supply, if not lower. And there are the noise filters to get the switching supply noise out of everything....

[B] that's comparable to AC inverter efficiency, so no significant gain there.

I dunno but I think I'd rather get the sine wave inverter, get everything working, and record, rather than trying to mod preamps to get them to work, but that's just me.

-Dale

That's what I've done, and it strikes me that the pres, comps, etc. that Atticus is wanting to gain efficiency powering are little bitty power piglets to begin with. A single mod on a power amp would make more sense than a dozen on a bunch of little stuff, and save as much juice. Same story though, probably.

Now for a portable system, to be powered of the kind of little computer batteries in this laptop... although there again the little Statpower sinewave inverters are small and inexpensive- although there are a few pieces made to run on DC- can't remember what, but I saw a mic pre like that...

[Tim Farrant]

AC is a lot easy to manipulate than DC. AC transformers are usually pretty efficient compared to DC to DC convertors, so would it be sensible to approach this from distributed AC 24V at 60Hz rather than DC ?

In this way, you could install new power transformers into each piece of gear to obtain the correct power rails. If the frequency was raised to say 1kHz the transformers may be easier to design.

Just a thought.
Tim.

[fishtop_records]

Originally posted by atticus

In my research I found that converting DC to AC back to DC for use in mic pre's was pretty inefficient

That is exactly what all the switching power supplies do. They can be
very efficient, or very cheap.
Most of them are very cheap.

The (?a?) prime reason that A/C power
won out over DC distribution in the early
1900's was the ease of changing
voltages.

Tube stuff takes real voltages, often
400V or more.

The big downside to low voltage
distribution is that you need big, or
even huge cables to deliver the
watts of power you need. 100
watts is under one amp at 120V,
and four amps at 24V.

The car guys are talking about
coverting car electronics to 24 or
48 V because there is just so much
load and so many motors in a modern
car.

Seems kinda impractical to me, but
whatever floats your boat.

[Mordecai]

This is way out of my league, but I would think you would eliminate a lot of noise that you can get from everything else that is on AC. Good luck.

[ulysses]

This is a topic I'm really interested in as well. I think we could get entire households to be a lot more efficient so that renewable energy would be more practical. But studio gear is what I know so it's even more fun to think up ways to pull this off.

What I would do is run my studio off of batteries. To eliminate some complexity of the charging system, and keep noise out, I'd probably have a big switch that would disconnect the batteries from their solar/wind/whatever charging system when it comes time to record. Theoretically, the time I'm not recording should be sufficient to charge batteries for the time I am recording. This would also enable you to re-arrange the batteries so you can have +/-24V (bipolar) supplies. In my dream world, evetrything n my studio would be stuff I built myself so I could implement a +/-24V distribution system to power all the gear. Battery technology is improving rapidly, thanks to the demands of cel phones, laptops, and hybrid vehicles. Look for more advancement and cost reduction in the future.

Another option is to use 400Hz power as found on airplanes and submarines and stuff. You can get a much smaller, cooler, and more efficient power transformer to do the same amount of work if you're running 400Hz instead of 60Hz.

Switching power supplies are becoming a reality in audio gear too, thanks to modern IC designs that can keep the switching noise up in the MHz range where it's trivial to shield from your audio circuits. Switching supplies can be made to take any input voltage, AC or DC, and put out any imaginable output voltage. They also can have efficiencies much higher than linear supplies.

The modern AC generators use sophisitcated solid-state inverters that put out very clean, solid 60Hz sine waves. A battery between the generator and the inverter enables a small generator to supply peak power that's significantly higher than the generator's continuous output. The same concept could be applied to a solar or wind system, where inconsistencies in the generation of the power can be leveled out through the use of efficient storage devices like batteries and supercapacitors.

There are plenty of more mundane things you can do now to work toward these goals too. Get rid of the 450W CPU and use a laptop instead. It's already set up to run off of 30VDC, and due to the interest in long battery life, laptops are already optimized for energy efficiency. Same goes for computer monitors. Flat panels are way more efficient than CRTs, and they already run off an external DC supply. It would be relatively trivial to switch that external supply over to something that you can feed from your windmill or solar cell or even just some batteries.

Let's open an athletic club across the street from the studio, and use the excercise bikes and stairclimbers and rowing machines to charge our batteries for our mike preamps and compressors and console.

[Ted Nightshade]

Originally posted by ulysses
This is a topic I'm really interested in as well. I think we could get entire households to be a lot more efficient so that renewable energy would be more practical. But studio gear is what I know so it's even more fun to think up ways to pull this off.

What I would do is run my studio off of batteries. To eliminate some complexity of the charging system, and keep noise out, I'd probably have a big switch that would disconnect the batteries from their solar/wind/whatever charging system when it comes time to record. Theoretically, the time I'm not recording should be sufficient to charge batteries for the time I am recording.

I do wonder about the whole +/-24 V thing and how that would work, but for a nut like me who insists on monitoring through huge tube amps, (Manley 440's) it's almost indispensible to have juice coming in to the batteries while I pull it out. The solar and hydro are really clean, as clean as without, and I've noted that while the solar is actually collecting, I get more juice than if I wait 'til the sun goes down to use the juice. The Honda EU3000i generator has a pretty damn clean little sinewave inverter on board, in some ways it's preferable to the big Trace inverter, because it's simpler and has no ultrafast switching, but for some reason it makes the big tube amps hum a lot. So it gets switched off when it's time to do the actual critical work. In between takes, it helps keep the voltage up.

The modern AC generators use sophisitcated solid-state inverters that put out very clean, solid 60Hz sine waves.

Honda EU series are the only ones I know of like this. Would like to learn of others.

A battery between the generator and the inverter enables a small generator to supply peak power that's significantly higher than the generator's continuous output. The same concept could be applied to a solar or wind system, where inconsistencies in the generation of the power can be leveled out through the use of efficient storage devices like batteries and supercapacitors.

that's standard for solar and hydro. Hydro may come in 100w/hr but that's 2400w/day, and batteries let you grab a big chunk to start a motor or whatever, or use 2000 for an hour instead.

[QUOTE]
There are plenty of more mundane things you can do now to work toward these goals too. Get rid of the 450W CPU and use a laptop instead. It's already set up to run off of 30VDC, and due to the interest in long battery life, laptops are already optimized for energy efficiency. Same goes for computer monitors. Flat panels are way more efficient than CRTs, and they already run off an external DC supply. It would be relatively trivial to switch that external supply over to something that you can feed from your windmill or solar cell or even just some batteries.
[QUOTE]
I'm already doing all this- even have an icebox instead of an electrical fridge! Fact- refrigerators kill vegetables- they last way longer in the icebox. No freezer though- but there are better ways of storing many things- for instance, alive.

The laptop cost more, but compared to upgrading the power potential to cover an energy hog CRT, it's very cheap. It's always cheaper to conserve and maximize efficiency than to generate more power- Amory Lovins of the Rocky Mountain institute has calculated that if US standards of efficiency were up to Japanese and Swedish standards, we would be able to do everything we do now without a need for the Alaskan Pipeline OR the Persian Gulf. (of course, that would preclude using it all up so the other guy can't have enough to develop into a competitor- but that's a different story...)

If "we" gave a damn we could just subsidize flat panels and phase out CRTS and save who knows how many billion gigawatts, with people leaving those things on 24/7/365- that's like 10,000 watts a day per computer just for the CRT, or close. times how many computers? the mind reels...

Let's open an athletic club across the street from the studio, and use the excercise bikes and stairclimbers and rowing machines to charge our batteries for our mike preamps and compressors and console.

There are parents who let their kids watch TV as long as they generate the power on a stationary bike... good idea!

[atticus]

There are parents who let their kids watch TV as long as they generate the power on a stationary bike... good idea!

That's the coolest thing that I have ever heard!!!

[atticus]

Well now I am even more stoked then ever to do this. I knwo that the "studio business" is bad right now but I really think that if I do a really cool, unique design and make it something special I can make it work. My desire is to build a cool strawbale building and just make it sound awesome, and definitely supply it with ultra clean, renewable power. Thanks so much for all your input!!!

[Ted Nightshade]

Originally posted by atticus
Well now I am even more stoked then ever to do this. I knwo that the "studio business" is bad right now but I really think that if I do a really cool, unique design and make it something special I can make it work. My desire is to build a cool strawbale building and just make it sound awesome, and definitely supply it with ultra clean, renewable power. Thanks so much for all your input!!!

Strawbale ought to be fantastic- hell, make the walls 2-3 feet thick if you want and the inside surfaces can be really irregular, sculpted even. I have a plot next to my house that I think of as the site for my future strawbale studio/control room- it's gonna be 30'x40' and at least 25' high. Where I am it's remote enough to be really quiet a lot of times, and the best recordings we've managed have been done out of doors- so this will be an indoor/outdoor studio with the outdoor side on the side most protected from the weather (wind is a problem with most mics), doubling as a stage for a little sylvan ampitheatre for intimate concerts and parties. Everything will be wheelable in and out of doors...

I experienced something a bit mystical and amazing when I built my current cabin, too small to be a great space because I lacked the nerve and sense of grandeur, but open design with a nice high ceiling, and a kachelofen- [look into this kachelofen bit, Atticus! The ultimate heat for a recording/music space- ultraefficient wood heat (99%+ efficiency is possible), totally passive design (which can be true of practically the whole building, and maybe should be!), keeps temperature and humidity quite stable, with only gradual changes. One good firing for a few hours keeps the place warm for 24, and it's radiant heat- heats you and the instruments and the walls, not just the air- open a window and have some fresh air while remaining warm. Easy to sing in cool air from outside while your bones and the piano are warm!]- what's mystical and amazing is that I built it with the idea of music being it's main thing, and when we first set up and made some, we had help! We somehow created a little temple of creativity... the muses just moved in.

So make it happen, Atticus! You can make it unique and special and a place where music happens that wouldn't happen the same way elsewhere.

[atticus]

So make it happen, Atticus! You can make it unique and special and a place where music happens that wouldn't happen the same way elsewhere. [/B]

Ted,
This is exactly what I want to do!! I have access to a lot of great gear (working for Benchmark has a few perks, you know) and I think that I can do a really good job with it and not spend a fortune in the process. I'd love to see some pics of your place if you have the time. Thanks for the encouragement!!!

[Ted Nightshade]

Originally posted by atticus
Ted,
This is exactly what I want to do!! I have access to a lot of great gear (working for Benchmark has a few perks, you know) and I think that I can do a really good job with it and not spend a fortune in the process. I'd love to see some pics of your place if you have the time. Thanks for the encouragement!!!

I have the time but no camera! And the real thing to look at is my dream place, which is probably similar to yours in important ways...

Still I'll keep you in mind if I ever get the camera thing together, and these are longer term dreams so feel free to be in contact whenever about any angle that comes to mind. A standing invitation, and I'll be real interested in what you come up with too.

Where I am I can build the straw bale thing without getting the officials involved- it's better to ask for forgiveness than permission!

I wonder if you have a location in mind or are on the lookout for one? I'm hopelessly out of the loop as far as "customers", I'll be lucky to get someone else to take advantage of the facilities, but it's been great for us, other than the stress of the learning curve- takes longer, and costs more... just a little project studio appropriate for our fanatic acoustical percussion and leslies kinda thing...

[atticus]

The advantage that I have here is that the very scenic, rural areas are actually within easy driving distance from a major international airport that has daily incoming flights from most major US cities, but far enough away from any crowed areas. My goal is to just build a studio that is cutting edge and relies more upon having the best gear then having the top names, many of which are not the best choice. I would love to have a Forssell console, and that may happen, so who knows! I just want to be a part of some cool music and be able to make a small living doing that. I don't need bling bling, that's for sure. Thanks to all for your interest!

[ulysses]

You might also want to look up a studio in or near Thunder Bay, Ontario. I don't recall the name of it but it's entirely solar powered. They apparently record a lot of Native American spiritual stuff. It's inspiring to see others who have pulled this off.

[Ted Nightshade]

Originally posted by atticus
The advantage that I have here is that the very scenic, rural areas are actually within easy driving distance from a major international airport that has daily incoming flights from most major US cities, but far enough away from any crowed areas. My goal is to just build a studio that is cutting edge and relies more upon having the best gear then having the top names, many of which are not the best choice. I would love to have a Forssell console, and that may happen, so who knows! I just want to be a part of some cool music and be able to make a small living doing that. I don't need bling bling, that's for sure. Thanks to all for your interest!

Well I think you can really be cutting edge if you're bold enough to not have to be everything to everybody, if you know what I mean. Just like tracking, there's something to be said for committing to a vision even when that means you are not leaving your options open in other ways. That is a rare thing, the nerve and confidence and vision to do that, and I think it can provide for elegance!

I got in by the skin of my teeth, and am always working around decisions I made before I could really see the big picture- if you can not lay brick one until you have the whole thing crystalline in your mind, you will be way ahead. Measure twice, and cut once!

An old timer wizard who is the master kachelofen builder here taught me a lot - one of the main things is that you can work as hard as you can forever, and it's for naught without vision- but with a clear vision, money and materials and work are but side issues.

So BELIEVE! And make it happen!

Another funny thing the old kachelofen man says- "all of a sudden I'm a genius!" he says this because a lot of folks thought him really out to lunch for a long time, as they trod the well worn path while he pioneered something off the beaten path. And those folks are thinking him a lot saner (with no small envy) now that his ideas have come to fruition...

[Bernd G]

This is getting out of hand..... . I love it.

I would like to require all musicians/producers/boy-and girlfriends that insist on being part of the "mixing session" to produce the energy to power the SSL board... through cycles that are attached to accumulators...

Now, back to reality - I am particularly pissed off at the Energy companies at the moment (dfegad ) and I have been contemplating SOLAR energy as well. Which panel companies could one suggest, Ted? Are companies in the US (like those in Europe) bound by law to purchase from you all excess energy that you are producing?
Interesting topic - also on the noise issues in audio that creep up with power sources.

BTW, back in the old world we have been using KACHELOFENs for centuries.

Cheers

[Ted Nightshade]

I am particularly pissed off at the Energy companies at the moment (dfegad ) and I have been contemplating SOLAR energy as well. Which panel companies could one suggest, Ted? Are companies in the US (like those in Europe) bound by law to purchase from you all excess energy that you are producing?

My panels are Siemens, they make a lot of panels and other electrical gear, alternative and otherwise. I'm sure there are other good companies too.

In at least some places in the US for sure, not sure about everywhere, the companies are obligated to buy your excess. The way it usually works is that you sell it when you have excess and buy it when you need it. This goes with the cycles of your own heavy usage times. The ultra-fast switching stuff in the Trace Sine Wave inverters is for this kind of thing. I'm not close enough to the grid to use it. Could have had a 17,000 V AC line run 1/4 mile up my driveway at enormous expense and unquestioning obedience and obesience, but I'd rather not bathe in that kind of juice when I am walking down my driveway, and I couldn't afford it I don't think (they wouldn't give me a straight price or really deal with me straight in any way, not too impressed with the kind of arrogance that goes with a utility monopoly), suffice to say the $20K or so to put in my system was a lot more affordable and doable, and felt a lot better. That was before Enron and the CA rolling blackouts, and it just seems like a better and better way to go all the time!

Interesting topic - also on the noise issues in audio that creep up with power sources.

BTW, back in the old world we have been using KACHELOFENs for centuries.

Cheers

We'll have a lot more kachelofens too after we cut down our the rest of our forests! We're still giddy with what's left of this virgin continent we have to plunder...

Hell, we'll be living large for at least another 10 years... then we can look to the old world to see how to manage after the modern Romans have had our big time of it.

[Berolzheimer]

Originally posted by dale116dot7
Well, here's my $.02 and I'm sure someone will disagree with me.

Hydrogen is not a fuel, it's an energy storage medium. You can't drill a hole in the ground and get hydrogen. How do you get it? You can split water through electrolysis, I suppose, though that's not so efficient. You can split water using metals, though there's lots of power goes into making and refining those metals. You can strip the carbon from methane, but that wastes a bunch of the energy found in the natural gas, and generates lots of carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide in the process.

Yea, hydrogen runs clean where you're using the energy but that forgets the coal-fired power plant a few cities over used to make that hydrogen.

As for solar cells and wind or water generators, those all make sense. Well, the solar cells are pretty energy-intensive to manufacture, but they still make sense.

What I think you'll need is a sine-wave inverter. Most places offering home energy generation systems should have them for running things like stereos, computers, and that sort of thing.

Good luck!

Well you're right about one thing.....I disagree with you! To say that "hydrogen is not a fuel, it's an energy storage medium" is silly- that's what a fuel is, an energy storage medium. That's what gasoline, propane, coal, uranium, etc are, for that matter you could say that that's what all matter is. Remember that you can't make or destroy energy, you can only covert it to a different form. burning a fuel is the process of converting energy in the form of matter into energy in the form of heat, or electrical current, or kinetic energy. And the preparation and distribution of all fuels requires lots of energy. At least the energy needed to release hydrogen (you can't really "make" it) can come from solar, wind, hydro, or geothermal sources.

[atticus]

I am going to bump this simply because I can

Anyone else have any thoughts?

[fishtop_records]

Not completely sure what this has to do with cool gear, making music, etc....


The definition of "fuel" is clearly subject to interpretation, kinda like the definition of good music. But a lot of people think that fuel is something that yields energy, or more precisely, yields more energy than it takes to produce it.

So chop down a tree limb, set it on fire, and it releases energy. Same with oil or natural gas from a well.

Hydrogen rarely exists as atomic hydrogen, it tends to burn in the presense of oxygen and releases energy and results in water as a by-product. It will actually burn with lots of chemicals and yield energy and something, it is just that we have lots of oxygen so it usually does that first.

So you can take coal, wind, falling water, etc. and get energy and then take water and get hydrogen (and some oxygen). Since even transformers are not 100% efficient (and they are much worse when you want 20Hz to 20kHz), you lose something.

But as a way for the government to hire scientists and engineers, it is better than researching bombs and guns.

Plus maybe the scientists and engineers will buy some music or one of Benchmark's wicked cool DAC-1s.

[Bernd G]

A Japanese inventor has created an electric motor that produces more power
than it consumes. This was previously thought to be impossible according to
the laws of physics. However, he attacked the problem in a different way
and uses an unusual permanent magnet array to achieve this. This is truly
amazing and has the potential to significantly reduce worldwide dependence
on oil. It looks interesting, check it out.

http://www.japaninc.com/article.php?...ID=1302&page=1

BG