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mahasandi
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16th January 2007
Old 16th January 2007
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That ac cord "sound"

When I see threads about the "sound" of ac cords I laugh , then cry.

This is the best explaination I've found on why

power cords "might" have the least f cking bit to do with audio quality:

http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/ac-cords.htm

not a geekslut,

I was wondering if those of you with the knowledge might comment on if there is any

validity to this.

that said about the same cable this next link is the most embarassing display of

audiophile~wack its actually hillarious and ....a bit painful :

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cab...ges/76330.html


Thanks
Nicholas
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16th January 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasandi View Post
When I see threads about the "sound" of ac cords I laugh, then cry.
Yeah, me too. This sort of stuff is discussed a lot here and elsewhere, but it's never settled. Why is it never settled? Here's my take on that:

www.ethanwiner.com/believe.html

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16th January 2007
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ETHAN!!!! Not AGAIN!!!! *Just kidding buddy* but put your flame suit on just incase.

Just kidding all in good fun people. No need to revisit that topic though, it was an ugly battle =)


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16th January 2007
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NO FLAMES!!!Really .

I know this has been discussed before ad nuaseum but I never read a as seemingly

grounded explanation before, it was innovative if not true.
(http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/ac-cords.htm)

I seriously wonder if this link has any merit from an electrical engineering point

of view .That said I'll check out your article Ethan , thanks!

there may not be any real way to isolate the variables in "ac cords " but his

mentioning romex is thicker and has less resistance then 18 awg is interesting.

Also MOST importanlty he is not pimping he is recommending volex 17604 which is

like $5 a cable so........let's keep the discussion about this link:

(http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/ac-cords.htm)
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16th January 2007
Old 16th January 2007
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It's probably helpful to try one out before you talk about it?

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16th January 2007
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The bottom line is "The subjectivists argue back they are certain they can hear a difference and the objectivists are simply measuring the wrong things."

agreed Ethan.

yeah it will never be settled

anyway

The one good thing about volex 17604 without getting"wierd about audio"

is its sheilded beldin cable so maybe less rfi/emi?

nick
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"It's probably helpful to try one out before you talk about it?

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades"

Oh is that so?

I actually asked a question about the merit of this article's electrical engineering.
(http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/ac-cords.htm)

If you care to read it , and add anything useful

with your expertise I'd appreciate that.

Thanks
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16th January 2007
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He ignores two things:

The wire from the coal-fired power station to the outlet in question (at least I like coal-fired AC sound better than the crappy Hydro power we get here in the Northwest). Most notibly, the wire from the breaker to the outlet. C'mon if you're serious about your sound, what is $400 to have an electrician properly instal a 40amp circut to your listening room with a technical ground and oversized wire?

The filter on the output of the power supply (guitar amps react dynamically on purpose because they have tube rectifiers and small filter caps). If you want to minimize voltage droop on the rails, put 10x as much capacitance in the power supply. You may have to make a soft-start cicuit so you don't damage anything when you turn the switch on. Or better yet - put an actual voltage regualtor in the thing (but you should use a discrete design, or you might sound like all the other mid-fi amps that use the LMxxx integrated voltage regulators.


Sounds like this guy wastes more time than I do on the internet....





-tINY

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16th January 2007
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So, how about those Saints?
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16th January 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
So, how about those Saints?
eeehh, I'm still depressed over the Chargers.

Jim Williams
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16th January 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
eeehh, I'm still depressed over the Chargers.

Yeah, that was a bummer.
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16th January 2007
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Patriots

Tiny , I take it you don't have a web page dedicated to science & sound of AC cables?

You could start a page on the virtues of coal-fired power stations for audio.

Clearly I'd read it.
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16th January 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasandi View Post
NO FLAMES!!!Really .

I know this has been discussed before ad nuaseum but I never read a as seemingly

grounded explanation before, it was innovative if not true.
(http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/ac-cords.htm)

I seriously wonder if this link has any merit from an electrical engineering point

of view .That said I'll check out your article Ethan , thanks!

there may not be any real way to isolate the variables in "ac cords " but his

mentioning romex is thicker and has less resistance then 18 awg is interesting.

Also MOST importanlty he is not pimping he is recommending volex 17604 which is

like $5 a cable so........let's keep the discussion about this link:

(http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/ac-cords.htm)
Well I happen to know Jon. He is IMO an OK engineer while we may occasionally differ by degree regarding sundry mechanisms.

The engineering in his writing seems solid, at least the parts I skimmed through. That said don't be blinded by the science, or math in this case. Implicit in the thesis that simple line cord wire resistance is important, is that the product being affected is sensitive to modest changes in PS voltage. Perhaps in an esoteric (read flakey) design it could be. Good designs will often regulate PS rails and engineer in adequate headroom to ignore minor PS differences. Products like power amps that don't routinely regulate rails will make an effort to establish important operating criteria independently of precise rail voltages.

I didn't read every word in his long explanation so hopefully he made that qualification somewhere within.

Caveat emptor. It can be technically correct and still amount to a "so what".

JR
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16th January 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnRoberts View Post
Well I happen to know Jon. He is IMO an OK engineer while we may occasionally differ by degree regarding sundry mechanisms.

The engineering in his writing seems solid, at least the parts I skimmed through. That said don't be blinded by the science, or math in this case. Implicit in the thesis that simple line cord wire resistance is important, is that the product being affected is sensitive to modest changes in PS voltage. Perhaps in an esoteric (read flakey) design it could be. Good designs will often regulate PS rails and engineer in adequate headroom to ignore minor PS differences. Products like power amps that don't routinely regulate rails will make an effort to establish important operating criteria independently of precise rail voltages.

I didn't read every word in his long explanation so hopefully he made that qualification somewhere within.

Caveat emptor. It can be technically correct and still amount to a "so what".
JR
Good points John

i don't think he qualifies this, he says:

"It is easy to underestimate how much drop a typical 18 gauge
AC power cord will have on a power amp, and even how much it
might affect a preamp or CD player. Sheer heavy gauge AC
power cords will minimize any dynamic fluctuations and shielding
will help with localized RF or EMI interference problems."

and:

"Preamps and CD players all have their special requirements:
CD players require shielding to help keep the digital hash that
back-feeds from the circuitry out of the rest of the equipment, preamps
need a nice steady voltage for minimum noise, and freedom from
RFI, etc."

At least I did not find a qualification either and the above statemnts imply
all gear is sensitive to gauge/ resistance.

hmmmmm
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16th January 2007
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First of all , I have to take my hats off to those high end chord lovers out there for not getting in here and ripping things up.


Second - John what the hell is that Drum tuner all about. Please post a pic ASAP - does it really exist?
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To all those AC cord sound lovers , enjoy!

whatever works for you, really!!!!

For what its worth I have had a bunch of these volex 17604 cords for a while.

I got em for the sheilding thought it couldn't hurt.

I havn't brought back my old ac's to do a "listen".

I'am not about to any time soon.

They seem to be working fine
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16th January 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasandi View Post
Patriots

Tiny , I take it you don't have a web page dedicated to science & sound of AC cables?

You could start a page on the virtues of coal-fired power stations for audio.

Clearly I'd read it.
Any moron knows low sulfer natural gas fired power sounds better. Especially for classical music...
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you just can't light a match during the burn in time.......
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17th January 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True North View Post
First of all , I have to take my hats off to those high end chord lovers out there for not getting in here and ripping things up.


Second - John what the hell is that Drum tuner all about. Please post a pic ASAP - does it really exist?
Sure it exists. Send me enough wallet sized portraits of ex-presidents and I'll send you one.

My apologies for the topic veer and I hope I'm not bending any rules. You did ask after all.

Measuring the note(s) drum heads are resonant at isn't that big of a deal, the much harder part was figuring out how to isolate and measure the individual lugs so you can precisely match them to each other. A clear drum is a happy drum. Tuning to actual notes is just gravy on top of being able to get heads really clear. I describe how it works in US pat #6,925,880 which you can view at PTO web site.

I also wrote a short article about some of the important relationships between drum head vibration modes useful for tuning/voicing a drum if interested. http://circularscience.com/about_drums.htm

OK, back to discussing line cords.

JR
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17th January 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasandi View Post
Good points John

i don't think he qualifies this, he says:

"It is easy to underestimate how much drop a typical 18 gauge
AC power cord will have on a power amp, and even how much it
might affect a preamp or CD player. Sheer heavy gauge AC
power cords will minimize any dynamic fluctuations and shielding
will help with localized RF or EMI interference problems."

and:

"Preamps and CD players all have their special requirements:
CD players require shielding to help keep the digital hash that
back-feeds from the circuitry out of the rest of the equipment, preamps
need a nice steady voltage for minimum noise, and freedom from
RFI, etc."

At least I did not find a qualification either and the above statemnts imply
all gear is sensitive to gauge/ resistance.

hmmmmm
As I said we sometimes differ by degree. Use of a heavy gauge shielded line cord could reduce the possibility of problems in marginal gear. $5 is probably fair for value received if only peace of mind. At least it can be argued that it has some physical basis (unlike directional speaker wires and such).

I personally don't lose sleep over my line cords, but don't see much harm from using a good part. It is not uncommon in high end audio to make gear better than it needs to be when you can easily and inexpensively.

JR
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High end audio amplifiers indeed may be affected by cables.
They love to use oil filled filter capacitors and hate electrolytics. When filter capacitance is low power fluctuations may play some role, but if to remember that they use filter chokes and rectifier tubes with big dynamic resistance variations of cable resistance may not be significant.

And when resistance, capacitance, inductivity of load is important, a lot in audiofile world is based on hypnosis. For example, "Breaking In". She pays thousand of dollars for speaker cables and expect that after some hours of listening of right music break in happens and cables will start sounding fantastically...

It is the same as I tell myself when to wake up, going to bed. I really wake up at the given time. The seller suggests adjustment of her perception, and that post-hypnotic suggestion works... She pays thousands for this suggestion, not for cables themselves... She buys the feeling of a joy from music that has to happen after listening to the "right music needed to break in magical speaker cables".
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
So, how about those Saints?
As a Falcons fan, I cannot support any of the conclusions of this thesis.
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John,

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnRoberts View Post
It can be technically correct and still amount to a "so what".
Exactly. Just yesterday an audiophile posted in a forum a link to an article that "explains" why some line level wires sound different. The article on the surface looked scientific enough - it showed screenshots of an oscilloscope and everything!

But when you look closely at the scope and read the text you learn that the test used wires 100 meters long, and the test signal was pulses equivalent to a frequency of 1 MHz. WTF? Who cares what happens in a wire with RCA connectors at 1 MHz when the wire is 330 feet long?

--Ethan
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17th January 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post
- it showed screenshots of an oscilloscope and everything!
Hahaha! Ethan you crack me up.
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I'm not into audiophoolery and I don't think power chords have a specific sound, but I'm absolutely sure in some circumstances a well designed cable will help the system.

I did some tests and my results are very similar to what I read in that JonRisch article, especialy about the radiated garbage that will be induced in the low level audio cables.
I posted my observations:
http://www.prodigy-pro.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18976

Another interesting thing is how the level of noise/garbage in the AC change from morning to midnight (audiophools say that music systems most of the times sound better at night). Just look at the pics posted on the second page of the same thread.

chrissugar
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18th January 2007
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who knows?

yeah i have 2 power dynamic "power one" cables sitting here brand new, not even opened that i'm supposed to test, they sell for $571.00( EACH!!!) on their site for 6 ft. I got it for Xmas(nice huh, i love free stuff :D) from one of their Dealers.

http://www.virtualdynamics.ca/content.php?id=30 Is the site with the info


heres some of their specs on it

12 Gauge Solid-core copper conductor. Hot, Neutral, and Ground conductors are seperated for maximum shielding and vibration control.

Level 1 Speed of Light circuit
Level 1 Dynamic Filtering
3 Dielectric Layers
True Float Ground Technology
Cold Crimped Terminations
ProtecX Treatment



and heres what those terms mean...? ( i'm not gonna say i understand it, because i don't but heres what they say on their site about those things, and i just took small parts of what they said about each other wise this would be a book, not a post, so if you wanna read more click that link up there)

oh and i'm the guy who said, listen first then talk, and I haven't listened yet so I can't speak yet... :D



"Speed of Light

Virtual Dynamics is leading the audio industry in addressing the role of Coulomb Friction in the degradation of signal quality. A key part of this new approach is utilizing and exploring “magnetic circuitry” as a means of amplifying, aligning, and filtering the signal. The name of this new invention utilizing magnetic circuitry is “Speed of Light” (SOL). "



"Dynamic Filtering
A technology birthed from the principles of Coulomb Friction. For audio cabling purposes, Coulomb Friction could be simplified as the equal and opposite reaction to the flow of electricity through a conductor.

As electricity hits the conductor, the resistance creates energies in the form of vibration, static, and heat.
These energies distort the signal quality, which degrades the sonic purity.
Dynamic Filtering utilizes fluid mechanics to dampen the conductor, eliminating distortion.
"

"Dielectric Layers

A dielectric, or electrical insulator, is a substance that is highly resistant to electric current. Generally speaking, there is an advantage to having numerous layers of dielectric as it provides protection from outside interference, and concentrates the applied electric field within itself. However, Virtual Dynamics cabling does not rely solely on dielectric layers for this purpose, please see True Float Ground Technology. "


"True Float Ground Technology

You’ve likely been educated about the dangers of allowing your audio/video cables cross over each other because conductors can actually play the role of antennae for radio frequency (RF) noise and electro-magnetic interference. That education still applies, but you can throw it out the window when using Virtual Dynamics cabling.

Our Level 1True Float Ground Technology features a noise rejection rating over 99%, with our Level 2 being even higher. Skip the tedious process of meticulously laying out your cables and enjoy the beauty of silence! "

anyone else here ever try one of those? try anything else in that price range? more? less? i'm currious, because c'mon you can't sell stuff that is that expenisve if it dosn't make a hell of a difference! and i guess a bunch of audiophile magz say this cable is one of the best and better then some more expensive then it ( wow more then 600 dollars for a power cable? wow!! I wish i had money like that! )
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18th January 2007
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Hmmm.... Excellent idea; let's organize together production of Coulomb Friction Meters!

No, better to open Certified Coulomb Friction Metering Laboratory. Gradations of measurement from 0 to 1000, $1 mln for certification of one cable, expires in 1 year.

Here is the patented setup: http://gearslutz.com/board/attachmen...1&d=1168992575

The calibrated cable goes through one transparent rail (left on the picture), measured one goes through another one (right on the picture)
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18th January 2007
Old 18th January 2007
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Quote:
Hot, Neutral, and Ground conductors are seperated ...

Umm, yeah, I would hope so...
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18th January 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wavebourn View Post
Hmmm.... Excellent idea; let's organize together production of Coulomb Friction Meters!

No, better to open Certified Coulomb Friction Metering Laboratory. Gradations of measurement from 0 to 1000, $1 mln for certification of one cable, expires in 1 year.

Here is the patented setup: http://gearslutz.com/board/attachmen...1&d=1168992575

The calibrated cable goes through one transparent rail (left on the picture), measured one goes through another one (right on the picture)
If I could sell line cords for $500 a piece I wouldn't bother myself with such mundane issues as measuring drumhead lug balance.

I suspect one could predict the Coulomb friction in a line cord using something akin to your physic powers... "Ummm let me focus.. There I got it... NONE!"

I lean toward the other meaning for "SOL", as in if you paid $500 for a line cord you are "SOL".

JR
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