U87 AI vs TLM103 (sound clips)

[Cosmonauta]

As requested, here goes a vocal quick test of the 2 microphones.

The chain: Mic > Neve 1073 DPA > 888/24

Santo Angelo (22 awg) cables with Neutrik.

Vox solo files:
Same room position, same distance.
No Eq, No Compression, No Reverb.
Both files are aligned. I tried my best to match levels.
Mp3 converted at 192kbps (96 mono), slowest conversion settings in Digidesign's mp3 option.
But nothing very scientific, have fun and post your findings.
(I have the SDII files if anyone find it relevant. But IMHO the mp3s shows the differences between the mics just fine)

Music + vox files:
This is the same takes from the solo files, with the music in background.
A liitle of Waves Renn EQ and Comp and Reverb One's Plate.

Forgive for my vocal performance (far from perfect)... I just hate to sing

[Mike Jasper]

Hell, I think I like the TLM103 in this case. And that's not what I want to hear. There's more high end in the U87 but kind of obnoxiously so.

That said, I've always heard that the U87 always requires some eq tweaking.

Jasper

[bgrotto]

The 103's gotta lame lower mid range, especially when the singer starts pushing hard. The U87 definitely handles the singer's dynamic range better, but I'm hearing some issues with plosives, plus I've always sorta hated the newer U87's top end.

I dunno...if one were available (and I just <i>had</i> to use a Neumann), I'd probably go with a M149 on this singer.

[amigo]

At 0:34s the TLM103s HF sounds strident to me. The U87 manages better that part. But overall I like the TLM103 sound.

[AmekGuy]

The U87 sounds a touch darker to me on the solo vocal. On the music and vocal samples both mics share a similar quality, with the TLM 103 exhibiting some airiness, which seems to open the vocal up a bit more.

Where the the U87 has the advantage is with its selectable patterns, but I am convinced that after listening to a number of mic samples, that the TLM 103 is very decent mic that holds its own against mics often costing much more.

Thanks for putting the samples up.

[Cosmonauta]

Originally Posted by bgrotto

I dunno...if one were available (and I just <i>had</i> to use a Neumann), I'd probably go with a M149 on this singer.

I would love to try the M149 in my voice, the only thing that prevents me to do that is that obcene price.

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by Cosmonauta

I would love to try the M149 in my voice, the only thing that prevents me to do that is that obcene price.

Heh ...fair enough.

[preben]

That's the thing... we're talking about a mike (the TLM103) that can be had for very little money - especially second hand.

Although it's very popular to bitch it around here I still think it's a marvellous money for the price and I've yet to hear any of the Chinese built competetion get close to it (possibly apart from the Røde NT2 which I actually quite like.)

I prefer the U87 for its capability to make a sound sound like it's emanating from a point rather than from 'just-about-everywhere-between-the-two-speakers' - more focus I suppose - but given the price point the TLM is very, very usable on many sources. IMHO.

[Yoda117]

Originally Posted by preben

That's the thing... we're talking about a mike (the TLM103) that can be had for very little money - especially second hand.

Although it's very popular to bitch it around here I still think it's a marvellous money for the price and I've yet to hear any of the Chinese built competetion get close to it (possibly apart from the Røde NT2 which I actually quite like.)

It's made in AU now, and has been for the past few years if memory serves me correctly (though the older ones were 100% chinese made and assembled).

Personally, I like the R0de line for a lower end mic, the company has definately upped it's quality since it first came out IMO.

I thought that the 103 was a bit too distant and didn't give me as much character from the vocalist as I wanted. The U87 required some additional tweaking with EQ, but I found that I preferred it overall. I'm not a huge fan of the TLM103, but I know that it's a bit more sensitive to which pre/comp you use compared to most mics (meaning that it can sound awesome on some chains, and absolute garbage on others... most mics don't fluctuate to those extremes when you change the chain). If you spend your time playing with it and get the right gear, you can get a good sound out of it. Well, that same comment holds true for almost everything I guess, but it just seems that the 103 is more dependent on it than most.

Actually I'd like to hear this same thing with the M149, but also a Peluso 22 47LE and a 92.1 (for a darker character)

[AmekGuy]

Originally Posted by Yoda117

I thought that the 103 was a bit too distant and didn't give me as much character from the vocalist as I wanted. The U87 required some additional tweaking with EQ, but I found that I preferred it overall. I'm not a huge fan of the TLM103, but I know that it's a bit more sensitive to which pre/comp you use compared to most mics (meaning that it can sound awesome on some chains, and absolute garbage on others... most mics don't fluctuate to those extremes when you change the chain).

Maybe you can explain how the TLM 103 sounds just as good if not better than the U87 in the above sample?

My explanation is that the reason it gets bashed is because it is one of the best selling mics in the Neumann line-up and seriously cuts into and puts a dent into the competition. Yet, when putting it up against mics costing many times more, it holds its own.

If you spend your time playing with it and get the right gear, you can get a good sound out of it.

Looks more like if you spend your time playing with it that you can get a great sound of it. Like all quality tools it is not a magic bullet, but in the right hands it will deliver.

Amek, I no longer use my old 103 because I prefer SE mics (mainly the GEmini) on most of the voices I'm called to record. With that said, when I did shoot out a new U87 and the 103, the U87 was slightly more open and airy.

SLIGHTLY!



The difference did NOT warrant the difference in price though.

The newer U87 wasnt worth the money. There are better options than the 103, but the mic does not deserve the that it gets around here.

[Yoda117]

Originally Posted by AmekGuy

Maybe you can explain how the TLM 103 sounds just as good if not better than the U87 in the above sample?

My explanation is that the reason it gets bashed is because it is one of the best selling mics in the Neumann line-up and seriously cuts into and puts a dent into the competition. Yet, when putting it up against mics costing many times more, it holds its own.



Looks more like if you spend your time playing with it that you can get a great sound of it. Like all quality tools it is not a magic bullet, but in the right hands it will deliver.

Simple... it did not, which is why I still felt that the U87 sounded better.

I'd still take a UM930 over the TLM103 any day of the week, and twice on Sundays. Why? Because one works better for me than the other. Does this apply to everyone? Obviously not. As you stated, there is no silver bullet.

That said, why does the TLM103 take so much criticism? That answer is simple, three-fold, and jealousy has nothing to do with it.

The first is has to do with Neumann itself, and the relationship to Sennheiser. When Neumann was bought out and the manufacturing process changed, a lot of people felt that their entire line quality took a hit. In some cases, I think this was a warranted observation, though not in all (they still produce some great mics IMO). That hit in reputation is something that Neumann still hasn't quite come back from, and is very evident both on this, and several other boards (not to mention the recording industry itself).

The second has to do with the changes in technology that we've seen in the past decade or so. Back when Neumann was the golden standard, how many other mic manufacturers were there? Not nearly as many as now. How many home studios existed where the average person could pick up this gear and use it for their own purposes? They were non-existant save for those who had a lot of capital to invest in the gear. Things have changes, and with technology making a lot of this stuff "easier" (a subjective comment I admit) and more accessible to the masses, you're going to have more competition. With more competition, you're going to have products out there competing directly with Neumann. Based on that, Neumann is not going to remain the end-all-be-all, since there are other high quality mics out there that can compete on equal footing.

The third has to do with the TLM103 itself. It was originally marketed as a poor man's Neumann, and a lot of people rushed out and bought them indiscriminantely. The hype was much bigger than what the product could deliver and when users realized that this mic was not the "golden mic of the masses" that many reviewers and marketing folks passed it off to be, it got trashed. Is it a great mic? Meh... it's not nearly as universal a cardoid as it is passed off to be. I find that on far too many voices it's a bit brittle and stringent, regardless of chain. I know people who have them and they sound awesome on them. They also took the time to go through tons of gear to find the right EQ, compressor and preamp to get a decent recording out of it. Yeah, you're going to have to do that with most mics, but you should have to spend 3 weeks fiddling around with over a dozen preamps and related gear to find a decent chain for a mic in a professional studio...

that's what one engineer had to do out here. His response (which mirrored my own) was that you shouldn't have to put that much work into a mic to get it to sound good. I fiddle with my chain now and again, but my higher end mics sound good on pretty much any chain I put them on, they take EQ better and I simply get more out of them without needing quite the effort.

coaxing a good sound out of a mic is one thing, forcing it is another. I just feel that I have to force it out of the 103 more than I should, and I know that I'm not alone in that comment. I do not consider it to be a threat to a higher end mic when I have to take such action to get a good signal out of it compared to the UM930 which is more forgiving when I play around with it.

For this reason I tell anyone who has a TLM103 to make sure that it works for their voice, and to really, REALLY play with the chain. This is obvious recording 101 for all of us, but a lot of the disappointment I see with the 103 is that people don't take the time to audition the mic before purchasing and then end up with a mic they don't like.

FWIW, the Vipre seems to be the preamp I've found that gives you the most out of this mic. The Germanium and LTD-1 also works nicely with this mic, but it's still not something that works well for my particular voice.

[TanTan]

i think the TLM103 is a must have, it's not my first choice for vocals but the U87 isn't also, it's a great fallback mic and so is the U87, the TLM103 is my favourite hand percussion mic and for me it's worth the money for that purpose alone

[AlexLakis]

Originally Posted by TanTan

i think the TLM103 is a must have, it's not my first choice for vocals but the U87 isn't also, it's a great fallback mic and so is the U87, the TLM103 is my favourite hand percussion mic and for me it's worth the money for that purpose alone

For a second, I thought you said the U87 was a great talkback mic.

The TLM103 is good, definately not as horrible as some people make it out to be...Personally, there are several less expensive mics that I like better, but the crux of the matter in my eyes is that the TLM103 is usually what the vocalists expects to hear (and see) when they're in a studio. Especially for hip hop (I think the 103 sound lends itself to hip hop vocals.) The same can be said for the U87 to varying degrees.

I liked the sound of the TLM103 over the U87 in this instance.

[AmekGuy]

Originally Posted by Yoda117

Simple... it did not, which is why I still felt that the U87 sounded better.

I'd still take a UM930 over the TLM103 any day of the week, and twice on Sundays.

Interesting that you mention the Gefell M930 because I have one and it tends to be siblant on vocals, yet it shines on acoustic sources.

That said, why does the TLM103 take so much criticism? That answer is simple, three-fold, and jealousy has nothing to do with it.

You are right it's not about jealousy, it's about the TLM 103 being a top selling mic that cuts into the competition. It's hitting them right in the pocket.

It's also about Neumann being the industry standard and their proven capsules.

The first is has to do with Neumann itself, and the relationship to Sennheiser. When Neumann was bought out and the manufacturing process changed, a lot of people felt that their entire line quality took a hit.

Please elaborate on how you arrived at your conclusion that their entire line quality took a hit?

Are you referring to build quality?

Are you referring to low quality materials?

Are you referring to law quality components?

Are you referring to inept research and development?

Are you referring to the manufacturing process?

Are you referring to ineffective quality control?

The third has to do with the TLM103 itself. It was originally marketed as a poor man's Neumann, and a lot of people rushed out and bought them indiscriminantely. The hype was much bigger than what the product could deliver and when users realized that this mic was not the "golden mic of the masses" that many reviewers and marketing folks passed it off to be, it got trashed.

According to Neumann a great deal of research went into designing and testing that microphone. Moreover, they have the resources to really take things through to completion.

Is it a great mic? Meh... it's not nearly as universal a cardoid as it is passed off to be. I find that on far too many voices it's a bit brittle and stringent, regardless of chain.

Fine that's your opinion.

I know people who have them and they sound awesome on them.

Which is essentially the point I was making.

They also took the time to go through tons of gear to find the right EQ, compressor and preamp to get a decent recording out of it. Yeah, you're going to have to do that with most mics, but you should have to spend 3 weeks fiddling around with over a dozen preamps and related gear to find a decent chain for a mic in a professional studio...

Conversely, the members who have been posting the TLM 103 samples did not have to spend three weeks fiddling around to get a decent sound. In fact, in the short time they have spent in getting samples up, if anything, it has established that the TLM 103 is able to hold its own against mics costing much more.

coaxing a good sound out of a mic is one thing, forcing it is another. I just feel that I have to force it out of the 103 more than I should, and I know that I'm not alone in that comment.

Forcing a sound out of a mic? Seems more like the incorrect matching of mic to the source. What I am curious about is why you would buy a mic that you did not like or try out before hand.

I do not consider it to be a threat to a higher end mic when I have to take such action to get a good signal out of it compared to the UM930 which is more forgiving when I play around with it.

Oh yes, the real Neumann argument, Gefell. A predictable agenda to say the least.

For this reason I tell anyone who has a TLM103 to make sure that it works for their voice, and to really, REALLY play with the chain. This is obvious recording 101 for all of us, but a lot of the disappointment I see with the 103 is that people don't take the time to audition the mic before purchasing and then end up with a mic they don't like.

As I have said the TLM 103 is not a magic bullet, but is certainly capable of producing great sounds. It doesn't make a bit of difference what mic it is, all mics should matched to a particular voice.

While I respect the fact that you don't like the TLM 103 or the Neumann line of mics, the samples that have been posted paint an entirely different picture.

[AmekGuy]

Originally Posted by no ssl yet

Amek, I no longer use my old 103 because I prefer SE mics (mainly the GEmini) on most of the voices I'm called to record. With that said, when I did shoot out a new U87 and the 103, the U87 was slightly more open and airy.

SLIGHTLY!

Glad you found some tools that work for you.

I find both of them to be quite similar, even the frequency bump on both is about the same, with the TLM 103 being slightly extended.

The difference did NOT warrant the difference in price though.

For the most part I agree, the only factor being that the U87 has a selectable pattern making it more versatile.

[Yoda117]

Originally Posted by AmekGuy

Interesting that you mention the Gefell M930 because I have one and it tends to be siblant on vocals, yet it shines on acoustic sources.



You are right it's not about jealousy, it's about the TLM 103 being a top selling mic that cuts into the competition. It's hitting them right in the pocket.

It's also about Neumann being the industry standard and their proven capsules.



Please elaborate on how you arrived at your conclusion that their entire line quality took a hit?

Are you referring to build quality?

Are you referring to low quality materials?

Are you referring to law quality components?

Are you referring to inept research and development?

Are you referring to the manufacturing process?

Are you referring to ineffective quality control?



According to Neumann a great deal of research went into designing and testing that microphone. Moreover, they have the resources to really take things through to completion.



Fine that's your opinion.



Which is essentially the point I was making.



Conversely, the members who have been posting the TLM 103 samples did not have to spend three weeks fiddling around to get a decent sound. In fact, in the short time they have spent in getting samples up, if anything, it has established that the TLM 103 is able to hold its own against mics costing much more.


Forcing a sound out of a mic? This argument is ludicrous.



Oh yes, the real Neumann argument, Gefell. A predictable agenda to say the least.



As I have said the TLM 103 is not a magic bullet, but is certainly capable of producing great sounds. It doesn't make a bit of difference what mic it is, all mics should matched to a particular voice.

While I respect the fact that you don't like the TLM 103 or the Neumann line of mics, the samples that have been posted paint an entirely different picture.

Little paranoid are we?

BTW: I'm curious... if I don't like the Neumann line, or the TLM 103, why have I stood up for them in past posts on the right voice and chain? Better yet, why do I own so many Neumanns?

And yes, some of what I stated was opinion. And it was blazingly obvious with comments such as IMO or by the wording of the sentence itself.

Now... onto your comments. No. The TLM103 doesn't outmatch higher priced studio mics and boutique mics. I don't own stock in any of the companies so if it was as great a mic as you say I wouldn't have an aversion to using it.

You can use the "Gefell = real Neumann" reference all you want. That trolling doesn't work on me since A) I also prefer other FET mics in the same price range to the TLM103, B) The mic doesn't hold a candle to the better mics in my cabinet, C) I own Neumanns, both older and newer ones (one of several comments I've made in other posts regarding Neumann is my enjoyment of the U87AI for voiceover work).

Neumann *was* the industry standard. Whether or not that is true today is debateable, and while they are still one of the primo names in the industry, they no longer carry the luster that they once did. Why? Because there are so many other companies out there now making quality mics in addition to Neumann. This was not the case 10-20-30 years ago.

As for the build quality issue. Well, the comment was made with an OBVIOUS reference to the opinion of good portion of the recording community. I am sure that a quick search of this or any other recording forum would mirror that statement. From personal useage, I have found and observed some issues recently with build quality. That said, the company has always been good with my stuff and I've yet to have any issues that weren't readily corrected by the company (although turnaround did take some time). That said, if you want specifics there are plenty of posts which highlight the engineering and architectural changes to the mics which have garnered negative attention.

Since Neumann does not make their QC records public, it's kind of tough to make the determination one way or the other. However if someone from the company wants to make me an invite so that I can go through that information and check out their manufacturing plan for myself, I will be more than happy to document the good, bad and ugly for the board. Being a former test and QC engineer myself, it'll give me a chance to walk the lines while playing with some new toys.

Now, out of idle curosity how did my preference of one Neumann mic over another Neumann mic for this particular application translate into "I hate all Neumanns"? Better yet, how did it translate into "I hate the TLM103" when I specifically said in my OP that it was more dependent on the chain than I would have normally assumed, but still sounded awesome given the right source and chain (like everything else).

Before you try jumping down my throat, read and understand the post. I dislike Neumann fanboys as much as I dislike anti-Neumann fanboys. Right tool for the right person in the right application... screw the name on the mic.

On the side, I've not had any issues with sibilance when using the UM930, although I did notice it with a UM900 (though I think it was more the talent than the mic since we had that same problem with several other mics that were used with her). Thanks for the tip though... I'll know to keep an ear out for it.

[Cosmonauta]

Conversely, the members who have been posting the TLM 103 samples did not have to spend three weeks fiddling around to get a decent sound. In fact, in the short time they have spent in getting samples up, if anything, it has established that the TLM 103 is able to hold its own against mics costing much more.

I have the U87 since almost 8 years and the TLM for about 5 or 6 years.

I have own or have owned both of these mics, the sounds clips are mp3 so you cannot judge as good, the 87 is a winner everytime over the 103, the 103 is to harsh, however i dont use either for main vocals.

It's mp3 with higher settings and the slowest conversion. 98% of the music heard today is through mp3 with much worse conversion than this one. I have the SDII 24/44 files if anyone cares and I can post it. (The differences is inaudible and irrelevent to my ears, unlike the differences in the mics themselves which I think is hughe, mp3 or not)

I find both of them to be quite similar, even the frequency bump on both is about the same, with the TLM 103 being slightly extended.

AmekGuy, I'm curious to know which monitors are you listen the files. In my set up (Genelec 1031, 1030 and msp5) there's a hughe difference in clarity and detail between the mics. But I understand is a matter of taste, I'm just curious.

[AmekGuy]

Originally Posted by Yoda117

Little paranoid are we?

About what, your dumping on Neumann while telling me how great the Gefell 930 is?

You can use the "Gefell = real Neumann" reference all you want. That trolling doesn't work on me since A) I also prefer other FET mics in the same price range to the TLM103, B) The mic doesn't hold a candle to the better mics in my cabinet, C) I own Neumanns, both older and newer ones (one of several comments I've made in other posts regarding Neumann is my enjoyment of the U87AI for voiceover work).

I am not the one trolling.

What I am saying is that the samples that have been posted have shown that the TLM 103 holds its own ground, despite the negative comments that seem to be parroted about it. Which brings me back to my question, why would you buy the TLM 103 if you don't like it? Why did you not test it before-hand?

Neumann *was* the industry standard. Whether or not that is true today is debateable, and while they are still one of the primo names in the industry, they no longer carry the luster that they once did. Why? Because there are so many other companies out there now making quality mics in addition to Neumann. This was not the case 10-20-30 years ago.

To many people, they still are the industry standard and pretty much every mic company uses their their designs and capsules, as a reference point.

As for the build quality issue. Well, the comment was made with an OBVIOUS reference to the opinion of good portion of the recording community. I am sure that a quick search of this or any other recording forum would mirror that statement.

Rather than blow smoke, how about producing something that supports your claim that the entire Neumann line quality took a hit:

Are you referring to build quality?

Are you referring to low quality materials?

Are you referring to law quality components?

Are you referring to inept research and development?

Are you referring to the manufacturing process?

Are you referring to ineffective quality control?

I have found and observed some issues recently with build quality.

What issues?

Since Neumann does not make their QC records public, it's kind of tough to make the determination one way or the other.

If that is the case, then you have no information to base your claim that the entire line quality has taken a hit?

However if someone from the company wants to make me an invite so that I can go through that information and check out their manufacturing plan for myself, I will be more than happy to document the good, bad and ugly for the board. Being a former test and QC engineer myself, it'll give me a chance to walk the lines while playing with some new toys.

Let's see, you critisize a company with your claim regarding their quality and now you want that same company to invite you to go through their manufacturing plan. A little out there, to say the least.

Before you try jumping down my throat, read and understand the post.
I dislike Neumann fanboys as much as I dislike anti-Neumann fanboys.

Nobody is jumping down your throat, just pointing out that if you are going to slam a manufacturer for the quality of its products, at least have the courtesy to support it with some facts.

[AmekGuy]

Originally Posted by Cosmonauta

AmekGuy, I'm curious to know which monitors are you listen the files. In my set up (Genelec 1031, 1030 and msp5) there's a hughe difference in clarity and detail between the mics. But I understand is a matter of taste, I'm just curious.

What is at issue here is not about what monitors I am using, it is about two mics that share a similar capsule and that have a frequency bump at 5k, with the TLM 103 being extended.

As mentioned, the U87 exhibits a slightly darker sonic quality, but the TLM 103 has an airiness which seems to work well with the vocal. I find both mics are SIMILAR and both work on the vocal.

In short, the TLM 103 is not an end all mic, but for a 1000 bucks it certainly delivers a solid performance based on all of the samples I have heard and my experience with it.

[*CISKO*]

In my opinion the 103 sounded nicer then the 87, thing is the 7 sounded a little weak for me at least with this vocal cuse it is not usually the case, but it had nicer detail and lots more air, which is trange due to the huge ump over 10k the tlm has. Alot might be due to the 1073 and its matching to the mics IMHO.

keep on rockin
cisko
why the hell does everybody give the 103 so much shit, its damn good mic