Summing plugin shootout

[Oldone]

I have no idea which is which but I would choose 3 first, 2 if I had to and never 1.

[Sir Chris]

I really would love to see a D Box or similar included. I'm on the market for a summing box but I'd like to know how they compare to these plugins.

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[e-are]

Originally Posted by Sir Chris

I really would love to see a D Box or similar included. I'm on the market for a summing box but I'd like to know how they compare to these plugins.

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There is a thread already about the dbox and i think there are examples there.

@ ice-- Im interested in your opinions, of course not revealing which is which, on the sonar plug. Do you feel it is at least comes close to doing what the other 2 do? There are many plugs that i have felt were the shizzle, later to find they were not what i thought or i can use another method to get what that plug was doing Can't wait to check out the files. Thx for doing this.


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[K-Slash]

I prefer the file 2 overall. It has the best balance to my ears.

Followed closely by the file 3 (but lacks some brightness).

File 1 sounds a bit thin in comparison.

Now for the guess :
1) VCC
2) NLS
3) SONAR X2

By the way, it would be more useful to put a blind test with a full mix.

But with these emulations, you have to mix through it so I don't know if it makes sense at all.

Just my 2 cents...

PS : I assume you used either the Neve or SSL emulation on each one right ?

[icecubeman]

Originally Posted by Oldone

I have no idea which is which but I would choose 3 first, 2 if I had to and never 1.

Please can you be more specific why? thank you

[rksguit]

I really can't hear much difference between any of them,except 3 maybe is a tiniest less harsh.

The main thing I noticed was the level difference between the 3,with 1.being -4.4,2.being louder at -3.1,and 3.being at -4.5.

[icecubeman]

I tried to match the same level for human ear, because ot that the levels of files are not the same. {every console emu doing something else in different frequency areas, I think you know Fletcher-Munson hearing theory...)

[K-Slash]

No to mention that if you're talking about loudness, it more about RMS than Peaks right ?

[e-are]

Originally Posted by e-are

There is a thread already about the dbox and i think there are examples there.

@ ice-- Im interested in your opinions, of course not revealing which is which, on the sonar plug. Do you feel it is at least comes close to doing what the other 2 do? There are many plugs that i have felt were the shizzle, later to find they were not what i thought or i can use another method to get what that plug was doing My point is I've spent some serious $ on some of the major developers plugs yet still i thonl sknote's plugs are some of my fav's. Cheapest plugs I have and spme of the best. Can't wait to check out the files. Thx for doing this.


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[javahut]

I can only say it as...

02 has the most "grease"... more saturation it sounds like. Also seems like I hear a little more of a "room" sound around the drums... which sounds good in this context.
03 has a little less saturation than 02 and sounds a little less "greasy". A slightly different frequency emphasis than 02. Sounds a little more "pillowy" or "fluffy" on the low end than 02.
01 sounds like very little saturation compared to the other two. Cleaner and slightly "thinner" I guess you could say. Although it sounds like it retains some of the "room" sound of 02 that 03 has much less of than either 01 or 02.

So 01 sounds the least like the other two in terms of saturation. 03 sounds different than 02 or 01 in terms of frequency. I couldn't say I really prefer one over another. Probably would kinda depend on which section of that particular groove was playing and the context. 02 does sound a little "meatier" when it comes in than either 01 or 03.

I have no idea which is which. I don't use any console emulation plug-ins... and don't plan to. I think any of these could be worked into sounding great... with or without console emulation. I think it's "tilting at windmills". Most of the time this difference is so subtle, by the time the mix is finished, so many other things have made so much more of a difference than a console emulation.

[rksguit]

Originally Posted by icecubeman

I tried to match the same level for human ear, because ot that the levels of files are not the same. {every console emu doing something else in different frequency areas, I think you know Fletcher-Munson hearing theory...)

I know it involves SPL at differring frequencies,etc etc,I was just noticing that once imported into my daw,there were "peak" differences,tiny yes,but may also account for any of differences in tonality[not that I could hear many].

[jalcide]

My guess is:

1) VCC
2) NLS
3) Sonar X2 Console Emulation

My ears favored #2 the best and #3 the least. I would have to hear the original unprocessed track to have an opinion on #1.

[Weile]

Originally Posted by rksguit

I really can't hear much difference between any of them,except 3 maybe is a tiniest less harsh.

The main thing I noticed was the level difference between the 3,with 1.being -4.4,2.being louder at -3.1,and 3.being at -4.5.

3 is just less DB average BUT its RMS meter is saying that is the highest... so 3 is more compressed.... but its all almost the same for human ears.

just for the statistics analysis I would go for the 3 the best (NLS maybe??).

You should work with MORE EXTREME compression for us to know which one sounds better.... light configuration it all sound nearly the same.

[Weile]

Please put out the secret.....which one is the number 3 ??? (message me private thanks)

[icecubeman]

Here is what is going on:

1. Cake
2. NLS
3. VCC

Some of you reported 3 as best, but only because there is way more bass. This example is worst IMHO because lack of detail in mids and complete cut of highs.

Almost everyone identify NLS, Waves really made great job with its emulations and saturation is great.

Cakewalks emu doesnt sound thin {compared to original file} it brings great harmonics in mids and lower mids and also in highs. Almost same behavior like NLS.

So as nobody can clearly say which is which, I can once again say Cakes emu are in same ballpark as VCC or NLS

[ionian]

Originally Posted by icecubeman

Some of you reported 3 as best, but only because there is way more bass. This example is worst IMHO because lack of detail in mids and complete cut of highs.

Almost everyone identify NLS, Waves really made great job with its emulations and saturation is great.

Cakewalks emu doesnt sound thin {compared to original file} it brings great harmonics in mids and lower mids and also in highs. Almost same behavior like NLS.

So as nobody can clearly say which is which, I can once again say Cakes emu are in same ballpark as VCC or NLS

Ok, so you gave three examples. You never gave the original, unprocessed file, even though Jalcide said he'd need to hear the unprocessed file to have an opinion on #1.

All this did was compare the three processed files and you asked people to guess which was which.

The only fact is that #1 was consistently called "thinner" in comparison to the other two.

Whether this is good or bad, no one knows since there is no original, unprocessed file to compare it to.

Then you come in with the results and say that people liked #3, which was VCC but it was a bad example and the only reason people liked it was because it had more bass. If it was a bad example, why did you use it?

Then you say that #1, which almost everyone referred to as "thinner" in comparison to the other two isn't thin.

Then because everyone didn't say that the thinnest sounding one was Cakewalk, that Cakewalk is in the same ballpark as the other two, which clearly isn't the case as almost everyone labeled it as "thinner" in comparison to the other two.

Without hearing the unprocessed file no one knows if any of these console plugs make the sound better.

All we know is that when it comes to VCC, NLS and Cakewalk, Cakewalk is the thinnest sounding of the three.

Although if you do this test over again, everyone will know how to identify them since the thinnest sounding example will always be Cakewalk.


All this thread has shown us is that you disregard the results, make up your own conclusion and then declare that Cakewalk is in the same ballpark as VCC and NLS because you desperately want it to be.

Um.....Ok.

[prophet]

Originally Posted by ionian

All this thread has shown us is that you disregard the results, make up your own conclusion and then declare that Cakewalk is in the same ballpark as VCC and NLS because you desperately want it to be.

+1

[icecubeman]

The point is somwhere else If you are not able to identify which is which, you cant say the Cakes emulation is not as good. If I remember, only NLS was identified correctly in all cases. Explanation of sound is only MY OPINION, like yours. Can I have my opinion? Thank you I will of course post unprocessed file later this day.

[K-Slash]

Originally Posted by icecubeman

Cakewalks emu doesnt sound thin {compared to original file} it brings great harmonics in mids and lower mids and also in highs. Almost same behavior like NLS.

Fact is, we didn't have the original to compare to .

So the comparison was about which one of the three files sounded better.

And the consensus is that the file 1, which was the Cakewalk version, sounded the worse. Period.

It doesn't mean that the Cake emu is bad, but in that example, it was nothing special, really.

That said, even if we had the original file to compare, maybe people would still have preferred the files in that order, because of what the console emulation add to the sound, instead of how true they are to the original file. We like what the emu does, not what they doesn't !

Originally Posted by ionian

All this thread has shown us is that you disregard the results, make up your own conclusion and then declare that Cakewalk is in the same ballpark as VCC and NLS because you desperately want it to be.

I'm sorry but I have to agree on that part.

[icecubeman]

Originally Posted by K-Slash

And the consensus is that the file 1, which was the Cakewalk version, sounded the worse. Period.

please be more specific why?

[icecubeman]

Originally Posted by K-Slash

Fact is, we didn't have the original to compare to .

no need of original file, you just like it or dont like it. In both cases please specify why. It is easy to wrote statements like "worse" or "period" but please let us know WHY.

[prophet]

sorry, but haven't you read the posts above? basically everybody said they disliked version 1 because it sounds thin. it doesn't matter if anybody was able to identify which plugin was which, fact is nobody liked version 1, which turned out to be the Cakewalk plugin.

now you might want to come to turns with the fact that both NLS and VCC were neutrally favoured here, and accept that this goes against your initial thought that the X2 plugin is great - seems most people here disagree with your opinion.

[icecubeman]

I dont say that Cakes emu is best. It is not true. I just dont like posts without explanation.

[K-Slash]

First of all, don't get me wrong.

I'm not trying to be offensive or to impose my point of view in any way. It's often difficult to interpret writing on a forum, even more when we disagree.

Originally Posted by icecubeman

no need of original file, you just like it or dont like it. In both cases please specify why. It is easy to wrote statements like "worse" or "period" but please let us know WHY.

Alright, what I was trying to say is not that it's bad, but worse in the sense : "less good".

Because according to the general opinion here, considering all the replies from the guy that listened and commented, the large majority think it sounds "thinner" or said differently : not appealing (compared to the others 2).

Sure if it's near the original "dry" file, people would have thought it's truer to the source file that the others 2.

But as we have no original to compare with, we base our views and what we hear. And we hear that the 2 others files are more pleasing to our ears.

And like you said, if there is no original to compare, you like it or not. And well, we (guys who listened and commented) don't like it on that material.

Now, let's be clear, I heard the A/B comparison of the Cakewalk console emu in the Cakewalk video presentation on YouTube, and even with the "crappy compression", you can hear clearly that it does enhance the track in a really nice way, making it more "alive" and giving it more "body". So it's a great sounding tool.

To finish, I'd like to point out that mixing through it is the key with these kind of plugins, like you would do in the "real word" with a hardware console.

Just adding these on a loop or in a finished mix would not give you a fair comparison, because you have to start the mix with it.

Hope all I said seems clearer now .

[icecubeman]

Originally Posted by K-Slash

Hope all I said seems clearer now .

thank you, this is what I call response We are here to talk about things not hating it without reason or because of prejudice

[Oldone]

Originally Posted by icecubeman

Please can you be more specific why? thank you

The only snare, about 30 seconds in, that sounds like something I would put in mix is #3. That is why I chose that file. The snare is fat, recording ready (or close).

This is the overall issue I had with the Sonar platform. Their plugins sound thin and rarely work without extreme tweaking or layering with another plug in. I felt like I was trying to build a loaf of bread with puff pastry, you know the thin sheets of dough. It was just arduous. In the 10 years I used their products I constantly fought trying to get mixes to sound commercial. The best thing I found they are useful for are game tracks and making music my family might nod approval to. They also have the best midi platform visually and thought leadership around midi in general. The Audio experience is way behind and I am not sure they have the leadership in that area.

I moved to Protools where I get more immediate results and competitive sounding mixes because overall the plugins sound richer. For years I sensed I was buying more eye candy and whiz-bang features than rich audio tools with Cakewalk. It felt like watching a magician waving his hand frantically to distract my seeing what the other hand was doing. In this case nothing was happening and no magic was actually happening i.e. visual changes but fundamentally no improvement to the overall sound performance of the platform. I think your examples bear that out.

[icecubeman]

unprocessed file placed in the first post. Not exact timing, sorry

[icecubeman]

unprocessed file placed in the first post. Not same timing, sorry

[K-Slash]

Originally Posted by Oldone

I moved to Protools where I get more immediate results and competitive sounding mixes because overall the plugins sound richer.

What the ?!