Summing plugin shootout

[jalcide]

i'd be curious to know where the drive levels were set for each plugin. it may be my disfavoring of #3 (the VCC) was due to the drive being set too aggressive, or how the kit was "mixed into" it.

in other words, different settings and/or different choices in how it would have been mixed into the plugin might have made me favor the VCC the most.

these plugins usually can't be slapped on a mix, they need to be dynamically mixed into.

i own the NLS and Sonar X2, but this experiment makes me even more interested in VCC, actually. there is definitely some mojo there to shape into. i think some mild cutting or rolloffs of a few key frequencies would have changed my decision. the NLS, which i think is amazing, would seem to play well with the VCC for simulating the hooking up of a bunch of analog gear together. also, the subtle additive effect of many different saturation techniques, by different manufactures, could be great and is indeed what happens in an analog studio with lots of gear.

i still don't have an opinion on the X2 console emulation, as i have not had a chance to really test it yet.

what i do know is that i can get the NLS to do the whole "crunch the top end" of a hard-driving kit (the top of the kick, in particular) in a way very similar to external summing boxes, analog mixers, etc. and i feel it's a slightly different kind of distortion than you get with most "distortion" effects.

[icecubeman]

What I found interesting about VCC is fact, that it adds a lot of bass frequencies, almost nothing happening in mids and rolling off highs. I am not sure if this is what consoles do, but it seems that people here believe in better sound just by adding bass. Which is ok, it is something similar with loudness {louder - better}. NLS and Cake emus making some presence harmonic mojo in mids and highs. Interesting is that all plugins try to emulate same type of console {in this test Neve} with different approach. Maybe someone with Neve console can write that this is not at all what Neve console doing to the sound I wouldn't be surprised. FOr now I think I stay with NLS till Cake solve technical problems with console emu in prochannel. Another truth is that VCC emulates only one channel of console. NLS and Cake has option to do variations on every channel.

[Hansenhaus]

Originally Posted by Oldone

I moved to Protools where I get more immediate results and competitive sounding mixes because overall the plugins sound richer. For years I sensed I was buying more eye candy and whiz-bang features than rich audio tools with Cakewalk. It felt like watching a magician waving his hand frantically to distract my seeing what the other hand was doing. In this case nothing was happening and no magic was actually happening i.e. visual changes but fundamentally no improvement to the overall sound performance of the platform. I think your examples bear that out.

Statements like this always give me a chuckle. I bet you a case a beer if you were to mix a tune on Pro Tools and Sonar using the same exact plugins you would get the same results.

By the way, I would like to hear one of your mixes.

[Oldone]

Originally Posted by Hansenhaus

Statements like this always give me a chuckle. I bet you a case a beer if you were to mix a tune on Pro Tools and Sonar using the same exact plugins you would get the same results.

By the way, I would like to hear one of your mixes.

The problem is you can't mix a tune in both with the same plugins unless you want to pay for a bridge for VST. And I'll bet you that case of beer that I would finish it faster in Protools.

And... I would bet you really don't want to hear one of my mixes.

[icecubeman]

Originally Posted by Oldone

And... I would bet you really don't want to hear one of my mixes.

[CoolColJ]

I took one listen to each in the order they are numbered.
based on what I hear on my new Focal SM9 monitors I rank them based on "niceness"

2 ok
3 not bad
1 - kinda dull and muddy
original - yucko

[icecubeman]

Originally Posted by CoolColJ

I took one listen to each in the order they are numbered.
based on what I hear on my new Focal SM9 monitors I rank them based on "niceness"

2 ok
3 not bad
1 - kinda dull and muddy
original - yucko

I really wonder how can be 1 dull compared to 3 ???

[CoolColJ]

Originally Posted by icecubeman

I really wonder how can be 1 dull compared to 3 ???

Like I said I only listened to each one, once in the numbered ordered, and called it how I heard it based on first impressions - Most of the time you only get one chance to impress

The snares and stuff in the middle section just lack snap and crispness, sounded dull and muddy to me - dead, flaccid, whatever
Lack of the right harmonics

edit - seeing it was the Neve, which usually adds a lot of top end sheen, which the first one lacked for sure

[GSmith]

Thanks for posting these samples. I just purchsed Sonar X2 and have been playing with the console emulations. I'm about to purchase Slate's VTM since the demo sounds so amazing. I'm now wondering about the best console emulation and whether these sonar emulations are good enough. I listened to these files over and over again at various volumes and made up my mind before reading the results. This is what I wrote:

1 is more subtle in flavor, it beefs up the lows a bit while retaining most of the original snap.

2 is my favorite. It beefs up the lows and retains the original high frequency content perfectly to my taste.

3 is the worst. It beefs up the lows but compresses the highs way too much.

I've now read the results and comments. FYI, the sonar console emulations really change quite a bit depending on the drive setting. However to my ear, an increase on the drive knob beefs up the lows at the expense of compressing the highs too much almost to what I'm hearing on 3, the Slate VCC.

After hearing these samples I'll be purchasing the NLS waves console emulation to be used in conjunction with the Slate VTM.

[FLYINGJAY]

Originally Posted by icecubeman

After a lot of BS reading about quality of Cakewalk Console Emu plugin implemented in new X2, here is comparison of three non linear summer plugins: Cakewalk Console Emu, Waves NLS and Slate VCC. I used Neve console settings. Please can you identify each file? thank you

Howdy!

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

[FLYINGJAY]

Howdy!

sorry drums are not enough.

try a full mix with each channel inserted with a console emulation,its only fair...

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

[GSmith]

Originally Posted by FLYINGJAY

Howdy!

sorry drums are not enough.

try a full mix with each channel inserted with a console emulation,its only fair...

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

Yes, to really make a good decision, one needs to hear more than just drums. After demoing the VCC in person I had to buy it. I didn't try the waves but after hearing the Slate's SSL channel I was convinced.

On a finished mix I placed the VTM on each track and the VCC 4000 on the master buss. I then made a couple of minor tweaks and holy crap am I happy. Very natural, much more than the Sonar console.

Try it for yourself if you have an ilok2.

[tunekicker]

Not super surprised by the results with the Cakewalk Console Emulation, as most people found them brighter than the others. My experience with the Cakewalk versions is that the Neve is the brightest of the 3 possible settings. Their SSL version seems the most transparent, the Neve is the brightest, and the Harrison is the warmest.

While I know this was trying to be an "apples to apples" test using the Neve-ish emulation of VCC, NLS, and Cakewalk's version, I would bet that switching the Cakewalk one to the Harrison model would yield results that would feel more like VCC and NLS. Just a guess.

Peace,

Tunes

[icecubeman]

There is no Harrison emulation in Cakewalk, third is Trident A range

[Bigbill95]

Originally Posted by Oldone

The only snare, about 30 seconds in, that sounds like something I would put in mix is #3. That is why I chose that file. The snare is fat, recording ready (or close).

This is the overall issue I had with the Sonar platform. Their plugins sound thin and rarely work without extreme tweaking or layering with another plug in. I felt like I was trying to build a loaf of bread with puff pastry, you know the thin sheets of dough. It was just arduous. In the 10 years I used their products I constantly fought trying to get mixes to sound commercial. The best thing I found they are useful for are game tracks and making music my family might nod approval to. They also have the best midi platform visually and thought leadership around midi in general. The Audio experience is way behind and I am not sure they have the leadership in that area.

I moved to Protools where I get more immediate results and competitive sounding mixes because overall the plugins sound richer. For years I sensed I was buying more eye candy and whiz-bang features than rich audio tools with Cakewalk. It felt like watching a magician waving his hand frantically to distract my seeing what the other hand was doing. In this case nothing was happening and no magic was actually happening i.e. visual changes but fundamentally no improvement to the overall sound performance of the platform. I think your examples bear that out.

I'm inclined to agree after moving to Pro Tools too, same story trying to get professional sounding mixes, and I work in the industry so I know what a good mix is meant to sound like. Time and time again it was a battle to get Sonar to sound good. So I switched and for Audio work never looked back, I wouldn't bother trying to mix audio in Sonar again. As for midi, Sonar is definitely better than Protools, for two reasons, there is a far better selection of VST samplers and synths than RTAS versions, plus the midi implimentation in Sonar is way better than in Pro tools. So I kept both one for midi work and the other for audio work, and render synths to audio in Sonar and do my final mix in Protools.

[EvgenyStudio]

1 - more cleaner then other. very small sound
2 - like this one. Nice low end, more transients, more attack
3 - dirty drums
I don't know about VCC and Cakewalk, but tried Waves and think that it's not necessary for sound, but anyway I'm interesting in results

[BaltarRecords]

Hey guys. All of the tracks on our showreel (minus the Whispers mix and master) are mixed using SKNotes stripbus. We love it. It's extremely versatile and can be as obvious or as unobtrusive as you want it to be and it really does do something special.

Baltar Records

Even one instance when I'm mastering helps make things come alive in a way that eq or a general exciter just can't touch.

Anyways, it's dirt cheap and it's worth a look.

www.sknote.it

I've been using it in Pro Tools with a wrapper. The GUI doesn't work, but I still use all of his plugins using just my ears...how about that

YMMV