UA Apollo vs RME UFX blind test

[Sausage]

Originally Posted by AlexanderC

Interesting 1535th post.. I guess?

If you'd like to explain how my post count has any bearing on whether or not everything I just said is true please do give it your best shot.

Guests & "lurkers" outnumber active posters in this and most communities. The BS that permeates many of them is exactly why a lot of people choose not to be active.

Is a post count supposed to equate to skill level or superiority? Often it merely attests to how much time people waste.

Post count certainly does not equate to skill level and superiority. However your aggressive manner and use of foul language seems to indicate more than a passing interest in this matter. If you really believe everyone should let it go than perhaps you should as well.

[cowboycoalminer]

Originally Posted by AlexanderC

Interesting 1535th post.. I guess?

If you'd like to explain how my post count has any bearing on whether or not everything I just said is true please do give it your best shot.

Guests & "lurkers" outnumber active posters in this and most communities. The BS that permeates many of them is exactly why a lot of people choose not to be active.

Is a post count supposed to equate to skill level or superiority? Often it merely attests to how much time people waste.

Welcome back NMS

[Sausage]

Originally Posted by AlexanderC

Are you really meaning to imply that "shit" is foul language amongst musicians?

My post and the annoyed tone express my feeling on the matter completely and there are a great deal of other readers who feel the same. Do you guys actually think it's enjoyable for people to read that garbage? Are manners only important when you're talking about other people's?

If any part of my post was not true then please by all means correct me. Otherwise what I see is a few guys who have an obvious disregard for their conduct here and show little respect for the readers. Speaking of those people and the annoyance of reading through garbage, I'll leave it at that.

I am not sure what garbage you are referring to. I just find it odd that you would need to jump into a conversation using that language. It shows lack of restraint and lack of respect. You are not speaking to people in your band or your friends and you are not on the street. You are on a public forum so therefore in public. I hope you are not the kind of guy that would go into a restaurant and use that language in front of woman and children. Are you? Its funny I haven't seen anyone else have the need to use this language except for you, Mcgruff and nms. It does imply a certain kinship. Your post seemed to convey peace and love and let sleeping dogs lie. But the undertone was quite hostile and said something else entirely. If you felt the need to protect nms's virtue I am sure you would have joined a long time ago while he was on his hate campaign.

[Sausage]

Originally Posted by AlexanderC

So just to be clear, the puke comment is polite and it's ok that you said shit above because you used 4 asterisks despite us all knowing what you're saying there?

If saying shit implies belonging to a special club that's one big club. Evidently you're a member too. Wait, perhaps only a half member.

If you are not sure "what garbage" I was referring to then may I suggest re-reading my first post a few times so that you may understand what is clearly written there.

The four asterisk word was a reply to McGruff who used the term. The puke comment was not meant to be polite. It was meant to convey my distaste for arrogance. I can cuss like a sailer with the best of them but I don't feel that a forum is the right place for that. I have not read the converter shootout or the Apogee thread. So I do not know what was said there. I was only referring to what was said in this thread. Anyways which did you like better the UFX or the Apollo. Or let me guess. The Motu?

[cowboycoalminer]

Originally Posted by Sausage

Anyways which did you like better the UFX or the Apollo. Or let me guess. The Motu?

OH, I've hit the floor . . .

[Category 5]

Originally Posted by mcgruff

I know. NMS isn't even here any more but still it goes on...

Whenever his followers bring it up, people respond. His tests had a lot of merit, but lack of a true scale (with a defined maximum theoretical result) and a weighting system to determine and identify which non-linearities are most audible to the human ear made the results food for discussion and really nothing more.

The work NMS did was good, but his refusal to work with others to make his data meaningful was the downfall of that thread.

Worse, several people ended up purchasing units based on NMS' rating system. It's likely many of them could have chosen much more wisely.

No disrespect to the mission, but tunnel vision and an unwillingness to work with others made the results pretty meaningless.

Thanks for keeping his memory alive McGruff. When I see NMS mentioned in a post I know that if your name isn't on the post itself it will certainly precede or follow it closely.

[Sausage]

Great job Alexander. We never did hear your opinion on the UFX vs the Apollo though.

[mcgruff]

Originally Posted by Category 5

When I see NMS mentioned in a post I know that if your name isn't on the post itself it will certainly precede or follow it closely.

When I see someone who isn't here to defend himself being attacked in such a petty and frankly ignorant way I do feel obliged to defend him. NMS created a very useful project.

Incidentally I'm still waiting for the link to show where he attacked Apogee engineers...? The one above seems to show NMS discussing criticisms perfectly reasonably. Fancy that.

The thing that you don't seem to get is that it was perfectly OK to disagree with the test methods and to discuss ways to improve them. Many seemed to manage that without getting all worked up about it. Others seemed to be on a mission to harass and provoke NMS. I think the fact that they still can't let it lie so long after the event speaks volumes.

Pathetic.

[cowboycoalminer]

Originally Posted by mcgruff

I think the fact that they still can't let it lie so long after the event speaks volumes.

Pathetic.

Kettle, meet black.

[MichaelPatrick]

AlexanderC
3 + infractions, forum membership suspended.

[Sausage]

I guess we can finally put this to rest. From reading between the lines in this thread I am going to try and guess what nms was trying to prove. I am probably wrong but I think he wanted to say that in his test the Motu scored higher in its conversion than units costing many times its price. Had he just come out and said this I am sure many people would not have protested so much. I personally would not have been surprised as Motu has been in the game a long time. He seemed to own quite a few Motu units. I think we are all guilty of being protective of what we have invested in. The only problem was he offered no opinion on the two units in this thread. There was no mention of the UFX or the Apollo and the benefits of both.

I will have a UFX and an Apollo in the next few weeks. I am happy to conduct some tests if anyone is interested. If we can pick a piece of music to run in the test that would help. Some people were discussing a particular Allison Krause recording in another thread. If there is anyone in the Los Angeles area who would like to help I would be appreciative as I am no engineer by any stretch of the imagination. If anyone has any other units they would like to test please let me know. I am happy to run nms's test as well so his struggle did not go in vain. I would just need instruction on how to do this.

[neirbod]

Originally Posted by Sausage

I will have a UFX and an Apollo in the next few weeks. I am happy to conduct some tests if anyone is interested. If we can pick a piece of music to run in the test that would help.

I would be interested in such a test. I am a happy UFX owner and have yet to see any well conducted test that demonstrates I would benefit in a real world sense from upgrading converters. The Black Lion mod test Michael Patrick conducted last year was very interesting and I did hear (after careful ABX testing) a slight difference, but for me the mod was only different, not better. That being said, I am not a fan boy and am genuinely interested to know how other converters compare.

I conducted a test of the FF800 vs. Orpheus a few years ago and put a lot of thought into the test procedure after seeing many flawed tests. It may be helpful background for you as you develop your own test.

FF800 vs. Orpheus converter test

For what it is worth, most folks could not tell a difference between the FF800 and Orpheus. For me, the Orpheus was better, but the difference was subtle enough that other factors (e.g. software mixer, drivers) were more important.

[Sausage]

Ok well I am happy to try whatever anyone wants. I have had the UFX for quite a while and I have absolutely no complaints about it. It is simply that the allure of the UA plugins is too great. I am into a sixties kind of thing so the Apollo is just going to be a better fit for me personally.

[useme2305]

has it been mentioned at all that the real contender for the Apollo is the UCX as far as I/O features go?

the UFX is a real I/O monster.

[isma]

Originally Posted by useme2305

has it been mentioned at all that the real contender for the Apollo is the UCX as far as I/O features go?

Not preamp wise...

[Grummy77]

Originally Posted by useme2305

has it been mentioned at all that the real contender for the Apollo is the UCX as far as I/O features go?

the UFX is a real I/O monster.

Also the USC only has 1 in and 1 out of ADAT. UCX, UFX, and Apollo support SMUX but the UCX can only handle 4 channels at 88.2 & 96k. If it weren't for that I'd probably already have the UCX, as it's so much more affordable. I am pretty stoked about all that the UFX offers though. Just don't have the dough just yet. With the extra money saved on the UCX I could buy an iPad and use that with the UCX for a slim portable rig. But for home I really want my next interface to handle 8 channels of ADAT at 88.2k or even 96k. I'd feel like I was wasting four channels of my Aurora 8 otherwise. Right now I'm only running sessions at 48k which is fine for most stuff but sometimes I want the extra information.

[neirbod]

Originally Posted by Grummy77

AI am pretty stoked about all that the UFX offers though. Just don't have the dough just yet. With the extra money saved on the UCX I could buy an iPad and use that with the UCX for a slim portable rig.

Keep in mind a dealer can often get you a price much better price than the advertised price. So, you might be able to get both the UFX and an iPad within your budget if you call around.

Also, I just saw on the RME forum that class compliance for the UFX appears to be coming next week, allowing UFX users to record direct to an iPad. No details yet, but I know many UFX users who have been eagerly awaiting this feature!

[Grummy77]

Originally Posted by neirbod

Keep in mind a dealer can often get you a price much better price than the advertised price. So, you might be able to get both the UFX and an iPad within your budget if you call around.

Also, I just saw on the RME forum that class compliance for the UFX appears to be coming next week, allowing UFX users to record direct to an iPad. No details yet, but I know many UFX users who have been eagerly awaiting this feature!

~This makes me feel like dancing ~

I'm all reliant on upcoming gigs. Then I'd like to see what kind of deals can be had.

[SabreChris]

I think price at 2K is decent price. Thats what mine was, I have heard lower.

Another great thing about the UFX is its use as a DI. The neutrik connectors allow plug in guitar, and at 64 samples over USB, the latency is like 3ms (undetectable) in Guitar Rig, which I can use for scratch tracks or late night recording. Also great for reamping.

UFX is a great choice for front end for virtual instruments.

[GYang]

Apollo is lucrative package because of UAD plugins, they are indeed good. I opted for it and didn't pay attention to RME.
In all fairness, it was mistake, as RME UFX is arguably better converter than Apollo (in side by side comparison it is quite apparent) and as DAW interface offers more (missing Thunderbolt option, I really don't consider).
Direct monitoring while tracking through Apollo's UAD plugins is not among things I badly need. It may have some advantages to other users, but didn't click with me.
On the other hand, RME is more of everything crucial for work except for plugins being integrated in one package. RME was and is solidly built and based on heritage of company that built rock solid interfaces for quite a time. Where is Apollo in that requires some time, it is quite new product.
I was very much attracted by Apollo, but second thought and real test opened new views.

Now I seriously think to make my portable rig a bit more complicate and sell Apollo for RME+UAD-2 Sat. I do rock/pop mostly.
Still, Apollo remains as good option for home setups and genres where subtle conversion details are not critical.
I don't say I'm happy by conclusion I made, but that's it.

[Grummy77]

Bit the bullet yesterday and bought a UFX. Looking forward to really digging in.

[Grummy77]

Bit the bullet yesterday and bought a UFX. Can't wait to dig in!

Oops. The last post did work. Looked like it didn't.

[Sausage]

Well I have been using the Apollo for a while and I have got rid of the UFX. The Apollo is stunning for what it does and it is indeed great to use the plugins in real time. However I don't quite feel as secure as I did with the UFX on my Mac. Occasionally errors will come up and plugins will disengage. I think maybe there are a few bugs to be worked out with the Apollo but I have no doubt they will be. I also do miss a bit of the flexibility of the UFX, like being able to route anything in Totalmix and having DAW levels. However I did find Totalmix a bit overwhelming and found myself adjusting levels for the wrong outputs when I was not paying attention. The UA Console is nice as it feels like a traditional mixer, although it is definitely limited. I am having to give up some digital ins and outs on the Apollo to get the routing I need but that is fine as I didn't really need the flexibility the UFX offered. I think perhaps the headphone amps in the UFX were slightly better. That is the one thing I noticed the first time I plugged the UFX in, how good the headphone amplifiers sounded. In fact I might go as far as saying the UFX headphone outs are some of the best I have heard including stand alone units. For rehearsal and live I think the Apollo is going to be stunning. I have rehearsed with it and run compressors and channel strips and reverbs on 4 mics. Everybody was very impressed. It does give you the feeling of running through a Neve mixing board which is quite priceless in a unit like this. I have had to reboot the Apollo several times when I do not ever remember having to do that with the UFX. I kind of wished there was a master EQ section for the Apollo but I guess you can't have everything. Am I happy I changed? Yes I am. I still get excited whenever I fire the Apollo up and I like the feeling of adding new plugs as and when I need them. It is very nice to be able to add something like a Fairchild compressor on a track and get a Beatles vibe happening. I would recommend either unit to anybody. They both have some very desirable traits. I will admit I do feel a bit apprehensive taking the Apollo out for a live gig when I never had to worry about the UFX. However the Apollo is a very exciting and useful tool and I am guessing it will get better and better the more mature it gets.

[xgman]

I ended up also going with the Apollo and will eventually migrate it to Thunderbolt. So far very smooth sailing using a 2012 imac and primarily Logic.

[Grummy77]

Had my first drum session yesterday with my UFX. I'm very glad I made the choice I did. Everything went super smooth. The 12 analog ins and outs were a godsend for the session. I was able to have extra headphone mixes for the band.

Really digging the RME mixer too. It does more that I need at this point. The compressors might not be modeled after vintage units but they sounded just fine and did exactly what they needed to. I didn't need to touch he EQ but if I did it would have been more than satisfactory for the basic filtering I'd use for monitor mixes.

Recoded a backup to USB during the session too. Worked flawlessly. Love the added security. It'd be great for projects where I'm collaborating too. After the session I could just hand off the USB stick and we'd each have a copy of the files.

Anyways, I'm more than happy with the UFX. Apollo would have been great too I'm sure, but I might have run out of channels for some stuff. Even with my Aurora 8. I was trying out a few options for overheads that I want to be able to compare later during mix time, so I had three different pairs for OHs varying positions and mics. SDC XY Jolly MK012s, spaced modded APEX210 ribbons, & a pair of Dragonfly's in the "recorderman" configuration. Couldn't have done all that and still record scratch tracks of the rest of the band without those extra inputs.

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by Grummy77

Had my first drum session yesterday with my UFX. I'm very glad I made the choice I did. Everything went super smooth. The 12 analog ins and outs were a godsend for the session. I was able to have extra headphone mixes for the band.

...

Anyways, I'm more than happy with the UFX. Apollo would have been great too I'm sure, but I might have run out of channels for some stuff. Even with my Aurora 8. I was trying out a few options for overheads that I want to be able to compare later during mix time, so I had three different pairs for OHs varying positions and mics. SDC XY Jolly MK012s, spaced modded APEX210 ribbons, & a pair of Dragonfly's in the "recorderman" configuration. Couldn't have done all that and still record scratch tracks of the rest of the band without those extra inputs.

I hope you'll share your overhead mic learnings.

How did you feed the 8 other inputs - ADAT or Line-ins?

[Grummy77]

Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick

I hope you'll share your overhead mic learnings.

How did you feed the 8 other inputs - ADAT or Line-ins?

I used ADAT, AES, mic, & line ins. On that session the drums were what was important so the rest of the tracks were treated as scratch tracks mostly. It's a Ukulele band so multiple ukuleles, multiple vocals, & a ukulele bass. Mics, mic'd amps, & DIs will be mixed for them in the end most likely.

I also rented an API A2D. One of the over head pairs went in AES that rout. The A2D wouldn't synch externally but all went well using it as the master. The list of what I did:

Snare top: 57 - CAPI312 - Aurora
Snare bottom - modded APEX460 - TLA C-1 - Aurora
(Best sizzley most useable under snare yet)
Kick front - Advanced audio fet47 - MP500 - Aurora
(So good I didn't even use an inside kick)
Hats - AT pencil thing(can't remember off hand) - TLA C-1 - Aurora
Floor Tom - ART MPA II - RME
Rack Tom 1 - ART MPA II - RME
Rack Tom 2 - ART MP Studio - RME
OH 1 - Dragonfys - API (312s) A2D (recorderman)
(Like this a lot. I was surprised how wide the imaging was from this. It was my first time trying it)
OH2 - Joly Modded MK012s - BL Auteur - 527s - aurora
(XY)
OH3 - modded 210 ribbons - RME (spaced pair)
(Something honest, open, & forgiving about the spaced ribbons. Can always add more top end later but never ever harsh.)
I didn't do room mics as there's nothin special about my room. Went for a tighter sound. If I really feel like it I'll wash the last place overhead pair out with a decent verb and fake it that way.

Other than that it was just live scratch vocals, Ukes, & bass.

It's a ukulele band as mentioned earlier, even the bass is a ukulele bass. So to match the rest, the drummer is playing what I think is a Ludwig children's set. It's a very small kit. Much smaller than those little fold together jazz kits that are out there. Pretty sure it's a child's set. Also I think he's using two splashes as his high hat. Not the prettiest sounding hats for sure. I think he destroyed the "children's" hats that came with the kit long ago. The drums sound a lot bigger than they actually appear. I'll ask if they're cool with me posting a clip of them here.

As far as the OH's I was at a dilemma. I'm torn between the dragonfly recorderman set up & the spaced ribbons on this one. Luckily I actually prefer the combo of them both to any single pair!

I love those MK012s on most things most of the time but the XY placement just wasn't so exciting. Compared to the width I got from the other two placements it just seemed narrow and less interesting. I will say that they were very natural sounding and not harsh. Next time I might try those in either a recorderman, spaced, or Glyn Johns method.

Today I was comparing hardware comps on various kit elements. Was making good use of the UFX & Aurora for that too. That's an entirely different topic though. Had fun today though.

[kingofthecrate]

I think if we can agree (or disagree) on anything here is that BOTH units will find purposes well served for two different types of users and rightfully so because, variety is the spice of life...


having said that, I just witnessed PRG building a DJ booth the size of a semi truck for coachella and listening to the LD say he couldn't run his distro in one area because the "dj" (unnamed) was planning on just using a laptop to run his set and had a backup line for an ipod and didn't want to cause any interference if he decided to plug his rig into lightings distro...

somebody please pass me that puke bucket..


I will consider the UFX as a valid interface for me however, I am still considering a BLA modded piece or a MH lio (was a proud owner of a BLA modded 002)

[kingofthecrate]

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