VCC ITB vs. VCC OTB vs. OTB (Mackie Onyx 1640i)

[haryy]

Hey, 1 is OTB, 2 is OTB with RC and 3 is ITB with RC. I prefer plain OTB (i mean the first clip, whatever that means).

[Halloween]

Originally Posted by mixonlyITB

I'll check it out in the morning.

Sent from my PC36100 using Gearslutz.com

Ditto

Sent from my PC36100 using Gearslutz.com

[barrythave]

I like the last one best. It's more glued. Although I like the punch in the first.

[ZFire]

Mix B has way less mojo than A and C.

So my guess is B is the pure OTB mix, since I doubt RCTube would sound that clinical.

[GoldMember]

cant decide

B has larger than life sound, very nice...

but C has much more details in the guitars & highs... but lacks that larger than life sound.

[haryy]

Results?

[SDB_12]

Originally Posted by GoldMember

cant decide

B has larger than life sound, very nice...

but C has much more details in the guitars & highs... but lacks that larger than life sound.

Very close to my thoughts as well.

[SDB_12]

Results:

Mix A = ITB w/ VCC
Mix B = OTB w/ VCC
Mic C = OTB (no VCC)

The differences were much less noticeable than I thought they would be. I felt Mix A was nice, Mix B was my favorite (sounded bigger, most mojo I guess) and Mix C was cleaner, but lacked something. None got progressively "worse" in my opinion, just a little different. I liked Mix B though overall.

I think the differences may have been more obvious on a larger session with a higher track count. This was a pretty simple production, with no drums. I think where VCC starts to really shine is on larger sessions.

Thoughts?

[haryy]

Oh, this justified my decision on selling the Toft. The only time i liked something OTB better, is the Inward Connections clips on VK and some clips (not all of them) of the neve 8816 summing mixer.

Thanks for the test.

[Yummerz]

Would be curious to hear the plain vanilla ITB version.

The Mackie sounded the most "hi-fi" - not just detail but also depth. If you mixed into the Mackie from the start you may have achieved better results overall, making other decisions to fatten the sound aside from the VCC.

Agree that mix B was the most "in your face", wasn't fond of A.

[Succulence]

Thanks for posing these! The mackie is definitely adding some brightness to the mixes running through it. Through my headphones it's not a qualitatively pleasant brightness, but it does help explain why those two mixes sound more in your face then the ITB mix which, in comparison, sounds less hyped. I actually like the ITB mix because it doesn't have, what to me, sounds like a sort of low quality high emphasis that the other two do. However, running it through one of the UAD tape emulations or an Massive Passive to brighten it up a tad would probably make it superior to the Mackie mixes.

I'm also curious what an ITB mix without VCC sounds like in comparison to the others. I have the VCC Tube and it's so subtle unless you push the gain (then it's a tad more noticeable, but that may simply be because it's louder) that I'm not sure it's justified.

I think what most of the shootouts between ITB, OTB, and VCC have illustrated is that their differences are so minimal that mixing ITB is fine. That, as it seems in the case here, the sonic differences could be compensated for with EQ and in a more pleasing way.

[SDB_12]

Originally Posted by mixonlyITB

Wow man I didn't check them out yet,did you consider other Vcc desk?

The 4k and neve are my favorites but the Rc is great for warmed!

I'm about to check them out!
Sent from my PC36100 using Gearslutz.com

Hey! Actually, I usually mix with the 4k console. But, I had just upgraded and added the RC Tube console right before doing this mix. It was a fun little project for youtube, so I gave it a go.

I agree though, I really like the 4k console. Adds a bit of magic in a way the others do not, but not over done. The Neve is super cool when it's not too much...very big and warm. I'd like to find more uses for the API and Trident...not that they aren't good, they certainly are but find myself gravitating toward the 4k and the Neve the most. Still spending time with the RC Tube to find out what it does in comparison.

[haryy]

Originally Posted by mixonlyITB

Thankz for naming the total opposite!

Cheers,mixonlyITB...

Sent from my PC36100 using Gearslutz.com

But i got one! In fact i thought that vcc would make more of a difference than itb/otb, otherwise i would probably be spot on.

[SDB_12]

Originally Posted by mixonlyITB

YEA YOU GOT 1 RIGHT,THOUGH VCC IS ITB...

Ok hear is my take(get it HEAR).

A&B SOUND THE BEST TO ME AND ACTUALLY B WAS MY PICK,UNTIL ABOUT 3 MINUTES INTO THE SONG!

IT SEEMS THE LEVEL OF DETAIL ON THE STRING SECTION ON FILE A STOLE THE SHOW!

THOUGH THERE WERE THINGS ABOUT FILE B THAT GRABBED ME,BUT I'M SURE WITH SOME TWEAKING FILE A COULD MATCH THE ATTRIBUTES OF B.

SO OVERALL MY CHOICE IS A!

QUESTION,HOW DO YOU USE VCC?

DO YOU USE THE INPUT KNOB TO PUSH THE PLUGIN?

OR DO LEAVE IT A LITTLE UNDER 0 DB WHERE THE METER IS STILL MOVING BACK AND FORTH?
Sent from my PC36100 using Gearslutz.com

Thanks for the input

I typically drive VCC anywhere in-between +2 to +4 on individual channels. Then +2 or 3 on the mix bus channel as well. I just drive it up until I feel a sweet spot of some kind.

I think my next mix, I'm going to start the mix with everything going out to the board on it's own channel, with VCC on each channel. I feel that using both the analog console, with VCC from the beginning and all the way through the mix is where I will get the true benefits of both. Slapping one or the other on after the fact can only tell you so much.

So, set up my mix in Pro Tools, send each channel out to the console across all 16 faders, then put an instance of VCC on each track. Have the console going back into Pro Tools on a master fader with VCC Mixbus. I'll group all instances of VCC together, and start flipping through the different consoles to find which one immediately sounds best for the song. Once I do, I'll go from there and start mixing and see what that gets me. Can't wait!

[once a roadie]

I think C will stand the test of time - check back in a year after this is erased from your mix memory

[ericmixer]

I prefer C. B is better than when volume matched but I believe the RC Tube is smearing the image a little bit. C is the clear winner.

I bet B with something a little cleaner like the 4K or Trident and with less drive would have been a closer sell.

People give Mackie a bad wrap but I've found in the right hands, they present really clear and pristine. Just have to watch the high-mids.

[dotl]

I listened to the whole song forgetting about the test...

Yes, the test, after one listening I can't be sure which one is which but I prefer the Mix B cause it delivers emotions to me in the most appropriate way. Sonically it stands on halfway between the other two i think.

EDIT: I just saw the results. It's not what i thought it is. Interesting!

[gideon352]

Originally Posted by SDB_12

Results:

Mix A = ITB w/ VCC
Mix B = OTB w/ VCC
Mic C = OTB (no VCC)

The differences were much less noticeable than I thought they would be. I felt Mix A was nice, Mix B was my favorite (sounded bigger, most mojo I guess) and Mix C was cleaner, but lacked something. None got progressively "worse" in my opinion, just a little different. I liked Mix B though overall.

I think the differences may have been more obvious on a larger session with a higher track count. This was a pretty simple production, with no drums. I think where VCC starts to really shine is on larger sessions.

Thoughts?

My thoughts exactly. +1!

[Nathan Vinall]

Originally Posted by once a roadie

I think C will stand the test of time - check back in a year after this is erased from your mix memory

Your Sir are spot on.

Ive come to notice something about itb mixing for me over the last 10 years. I think most of us learn or are taught to listen and focus on frequency changes/balance, timing and space, etc as we never had Aliasing problems on analogue systems....

For years I thought I was getting pretty good mixes itb, I felt I was hitting most of the correct engineering requirements for a good mix. In fact technically I was hitting way better than I was ever doing when I was fully OTB...But something was lacking, not only in creation and inspiration, but standing the test of time. So I tried to pull it out of the mix by adding more plug ins, more processing, more, limiting, compression, saturation giving me more aliasing and getting further and further away from the emotional excitement! Stop! Pull Back!! UNDO!

So my conclusion so far is this, All the digital problems that are there with us today "most of us" don't hear, because we are not listening for them. Maybe a key is to stop listening so much and start feeling more!! Then I think we all would start notice when Aliasing is happening.

Aliasing and digital artifacts brought on by poor code and poor gain structure leads to degeneration of an emotional connection with the song. Something that is felt, subconsciously rather than heard. On top of that, artifacts also smear our audio vision, leading to a flat out of focus picture (2D)? The sharper the image, the more detail in the picture will come out, leading to a more overall understanding of what that picture captured. Seeing the image has depth and then the feeling of space appears. One builds an emotional relationship to that space!

Took me years of pain, testing, researching and more researching to finally grasp what's going on here! Probably lots more still to go, but....

I can feel clearly now the "grain" has gone!!


I believe technically people are getting amazing mixes ITB these days!! But as for longevity & emotion they are all failing hard!! Hence the whole argument we get between digital v Analogue still goes on today.

Yes digital mixes are technically superior, but the lost of "SOUL" is in its tradeoff.

Until such time when "ALL" digital artifacts are no longer presence in the audio realm, OTB is the way to go if you want emotion and longevity in your music or productions, even if you don't hear or know it yet!

I must add. If your only using audio files with hardly any plugs in and getting your DAW levels way down to -23dbfs then you might have a good chance of keeping the emotion in that song.

For others that are heavy hands on plugs, levels and use a lot of soft synths and samplers. Then you might want to look into things a bit more. You guys have a lot of pitfalls to watch out for. As Im one of those ones!

Peace!!

[Yummerz]

Originally Posted by Nathan Vinall

Your Sir are spot on.

Ive come to notice something about itb mixing for me over the last 10 years. I think most of us learn or are taught to listen and focus on frequency changes/balance, timing and space, etc as we never had Aliasing problems on analogue systems....

For years I thought I was getting pretty good mixes itb, I felt I was hitting most of the correct engineering requirements for a good mix. In fact technically I was hitting way better than I was ever doing when I was fully OTB...But something was lacking, not only in creation and inspiration, but standing the test of time. So I tried to pull it out of the mix by adding more plug ins, more processing, more, limiting, compression, saturation giving me more aliasing and getting further and further away from the emotional excitement! Stop! Pull Back!! UNDO!

So my conclusion so far is this, All the digital problems that are there with us today "most of us" don't hear, because we are not listening for them. Maybe a key is to stop listening so much and start feeling more!! Then I think we all would start notice when Aliasing is happening.

Aliasing and digital artifacts brought on by poor code and poor gain structure leads to degeneration of an emotional connection with the song. Something that is felt, subconsciously rather than heard. On top of that, artifacts also smear our audio vision, leading to a flat out of focus picture (2D)? The sharper the image, the more detail in the picture will come out, leading to a more overall understanding of what that picture captured. Seeing the image has depth and then the feeling of space appears. One builds an emotional relationship to that space!

Took me years of pain, testing, researching and more researching to finally grasp what's going on here! Probably lots more still to go, but....

I can feel clearly now the "grain" has gone!!


I believe technically people are getting amazing mixes ITB these days!! But as for longevity & emotion they are all failing hard!! Hence the whole argument we get between digital v Analogue still goes on today.

Yes digital mixes are technically superior, but the lost of "SOUL" is in its tradeoff.

Until such time when "ALL" digital artifacts are no longer presence in the audio realm, OTB is the way to go if you want emotion and longevity in your music or productions, even if you don't hear or know it yet!

I must add. If your only using audio files with hardly any plugs in and getting your DAW levels way down to -23dbfs then you might have a good chance of keeping the emotion in that song.

For others that are heavy hands on plugs, levels and use a lot of soft synths and samplers. Then you might want to look into things a bit more. You guys have a lot of pitfalls to watch out for. As Im one of those ones!

Peace!!

great post