More Mic Madness - cHapTeR 4 - What's up with KM84's?

[junior]

Originally Posted by drBill

I'm not wild about the 603/604/991/et. mics. Modded OR unmodded. I DO REALLY, REALLY like that preamp body on Michael's K47H capsulehead though. Stunning. But with it's own cap or modded cap.....eh, not so much.

Yeah, I agree - I picked up a stock 603s for $30 a few weeks ago and it's 'OK'. Good for the money, but I don't think it'd win against other mics for most things. Wondering if it's worth performing the mod or not...

Been curious about those K47H caps since you did your shootouts. Any word on whether he's going to make them available for Gefell preamps? I thought I read something about that a while back...

[acmeman]

Thanks for all the work you put into this mic shootout Bill.

I've downloaded so many tracks over the past few days that my brain is a little fried as I'm trying to decide what mics to get for recording my own Acoustic.

Seeing as I'm only interested in steel string guitar I had a listen to the Martin comparison between the 84 & MJ's 012's.

The 84 sounds sweet doesn't it and when I listen to the 012's I hear a more agressive mic and a bigger and loser bottom end (just a little).
The 84 definitely has a smoother attack quite even dynamically.

I agree the 012's are a more modern sounding mic and with the extra sharpness in the mids less forgiving on that style of playing.
Whereas the 84 suits that style and the softer midrange helps disguise or even out the playing dynamics. (looseness for want of a better word)

Straight up the 84 sounds great but for the difference in price the 012's I wonder, with a little compression, tame the bottoms and a little EQ massaging
in the mids and highs it could sound better for that guitar & style of playing. It's hinting to me that an 84 would be great for a mellow easy to listen
to sound & style (James Taylor) whereas the 012's would kickass on Soft Rock, Pop, finger style, harmonics.....

I've never personally used a Neumann 84 though I'm sure I've been in the same room when doing session work in a number of
studios here in Australia back in the late 70's & into the 80's, Alberts, Emi, 301, Rhino and others that are no longer in their present form.
But back then I played Bass and didn't need to know about mics, that was the engineers domain.

I'll also go out on a limb here and say that I'm sure there are great sounds the 012's can achieve in the right hands that the 84's can't touch.

Perhaps the smooth midrange of the 84 is what makes it so nice for snare and would also explain why it might be less worthy on OH or
Cymbals due to the smoothness of its transient response.

Heck what would I know

My thoughts on why this thread hasn't taken off as much as the others. Possibly there's a ton of guys, myself included, who might love to
have a Neumann but know there's little chance of that happening in a budget home studio and are quite happy to be unaware of the potential
greatness of owning said microphone. Not to mention the thousands of extra dollars needed to complete a worthy recording setup to do it
justice. Be a bit like owning a ferrari and living in a trailer....

I'm going to download and listen to the SDC & over the shoulder LDC track(s)

Great work Bill

[Croaker]

Originally Posted by acmeman

Perhaps the smooth midrange of the 84 is what makes it so nice for snare and would also explain why it might be less worthy on OH or
Cymbals due to the smoothness of its transient response.

I dont know if less worthy is the term to use, I see it the opposite way and for that reason I love them on OH. I used KM184s for years on OH and once I got the KM84s they never saw that duty again. I always had trouble taming the cymbals with KM184s.The cymbals seem to sit so much nicer in the drum mix now. If I want a little more high end I throw up my Schoeps CM4s (on acoustic too)

[acmeman]

Originally Posted by Croaker

I used KM184s for years on OH and once I got the KM84s they never saw that duty again. I always had trouble taming the cymbals with KM184s.The cymbals seem to sit so much nicer in the drum mix now. If I want a little more high end I throw up my Schoeps CM4s (on acoustic too)

That makes more sense compared to my comment.

So I'm looking for a KM84 equivalent for acoustic something with that nice midrange. If I can get that with the 012's I'd be happy.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by acmeman

So I'm looking for a KM84 equivalent for acoustic something with that nice midrange. If I can get that with the 012's I'd be happy.

hey man, thanks for checking out the KM84 clips! I'd like to respond to some of your previous post when I have a bit more time to listen again, but there's one clip I didn't post in this shootout....

It's a clip that's intercut 13X's between the KM84 and 012 on the same Martin guitar you've been listening to. Click Here....

I accidentally hit on this and was blow away at how close the two mics sounded. Not ALWAYS as you have duly noted above, but they can be very, very close. So close that I challenged Michael Joly to do a contest to see if anyone could tell the differences - neither the guitarist or I could consistently discern the differences. You might like to check that out as well....

The Be All, End All KM84 "Sound-Alike" Contest - win a PAIR of SDC's

Best of luck in your search. I'll always own a KM84 or two or more....., but there are other alternatives that are very nice as well. The modded 012's being near the top I think.

Oh, and a little PS - that thin bodied martin is gorgeous, but it cuts like a freaking razor blade. I've since switched to using a CAPI VP-26 mic pre or the AML EZ73 Neve 1073 clone to smooth things out a bit, and I'm much happier with the sound.

[acmeman]

[QUOTE=drBill;7370527]It's a clip that's intercut 13X's between the KM84 and 012 on the same Martin guitar you've been listening to. [/QUOTE}

I had a listen to that on Michael Joly's site, really impressive, I couldn't pick the cuts listening in headphones.
I would have dragged it into Logic Pro for a little Detective work but alas the Comp was over.

Never the less, it didn't matter it sounded good.

Oh, and a little PS - that thin bodied martin is gorgeous, but it cuts like a freaking razor blade.
I've since switched to using a CAPI VP-26 mic pre or the AML EZ73 Neve 1073 clone to smooth things out a bit,
and I'm much happier with the sound.

When I was searching for a signature acoustic sound I tried, Martins, Matons, Taylors, The Martin D-28 was a
stand out but the one I went for was the Breedlove Northwest Classic C25 Master Class Grand Concert,
(Thats a hell of a lot of words for one guitar and it was a hell of a lot of money) It has a very soft crystal
clear tone with tons of harmonic content not a guitar for thrashing about on. Though I have used it with
some amp sims & distortion as a convincing Rock Guitar (tehe don't tell anyone)

At this point I'm leaning towards getting MJ's Oktava 012 03 (Cardi, Omni & Hyper Caps) n I want to get
my old Rode NT1000 modded. Woohoo then I'd have 2 mics !!!

[eagleman]

Great shootout Bill thanks!
I had a km 84 for some weeks and only tried it on acoustic guitar so far. I used a stock 012 before that compared to the km84 sounds darker and some muddier. I still like it. The km84 on the other hand is very bright sounding and listening to the clips in this thread got me wondering if there is a spectrum of different sounding km84 that could make it difficult to compare. What are your experiences of the km84 is there a big sounding difference between them or is it just subtle?

[drBill]

Originally Posted by eagleman

Great shootout Bill thanks!
I had a km 84 for some weeks and only tried it on acoustic guitar so far. I used a stock 012 before that compared to the km84 sounds darker and some muddier. I still like it. The km84 on the other hand is very bright sounding and listening to the clips in this thread got me wondering if there is a spectrum of different sounding km84 that could make it difficult to compare. What are your experiences of the km84 is there a big sounding difference between them or is it just subtle?

You're welcome. Glad you liked it.

I'm not sure I completely understand your question. I have 3 KM84's and they are all very similar. They all have the same "vibe" / "feel" when using them. I would not consider any of them "bright" though. I would call them midrange focused with a nice open top end, not in the least bit hyped. By any chance did you have a 184 instead of the 84?? The 184 sounds hugely different to the 84, with the 184 being bright almost to the point of brash on the top end - while still being a nice and useful mic. IMO a modded 012 is much closer to an 84 than a 184.

Did that answer your question at all?

[eagleman]

Originally Posted by drBill

You're welcome. Glad you liked it.

I'm not sure I completely understand your question. I have 3 KM84's and they are all very similar. They all have the same "vibe" / "feel" when using them. I would not consider any of them "bright" though. I would call them midrange focused with a nice open top end, not in the least bit hyped. By any chance did you have a 184 instead of the 84?? The 184 sounds hugely different to the 84, with the 184 being bright almost to the point of brash on the top end - while still being a nice and useful mic. IMO a modded 012 is much closer to an 84 than a 184.

Did that answer your question at all?

I guess so. I was just considering the fact that some of the km84’s now are 25years + and some with more or less hard lives. I thought of the possibility that they could sound different from when they were new. Nice to hear that all your 3 84’s do sound alike. Mine is very torn, all the black is now barely visible. It has a serial starting with 45xxxx so I guess it’s from the 80ties. I have tried it with my Isa one, pre-73 and liquid saffire 56 all with great result but still a bit bright IMO.

[Piedpiper]

Originally Posted by eagleman

I guess so. I was just considering the fact that some of the km84’s now are 25years + and some with more or less hard lives. I thought of the possibility that they could sound different from when they were new. Nice to hear that all your 3 84’s do sound alike. Mine is very torn, all the black is now barely visible. It has a serial starting with 45xxxx so I guess it’s from the 80ties. I have tried it with my Isa one, pre-73 and liquid saffire 56 all with great result but still a bit bright IMO.

Although I trust Bill's ears, I have heard KM84s that sounded pretty different to each other. I still wouldn't characterize any of them as bright though. None of your pres are the smoothest options but somehow it's hard for me to think that's the culprit. Maybe yours has a problem... can you borrow another one to compare? or even a 184 to confirm that it is much brighter than your 84?

[eagleman]

Originally Posted by Piedpiper

Although I trust Bill's ears, I have heard KM84s that sounded pretty different to each other. I still wouldn't characterize any of them as bright though. None of your pres are the smoothest options but somehow it's hard for me to think that's the culprit. Maybe yours has a problem... can you borrow another one to compare? or even a 184 to confirm that it is much brighter than your 84?

Thanks for your answer Piedpiper.
I don’t think that it’s broken. I does sound god. Maybe it’s just my environment and ears. I’ve recorded a short wav file and if anybody’s would be nice and consider if this is harsh or not I would appreciate it highly.

[Piedpiper]

Originally Posted by eagleman

Thanks for your answer Piedpiper.
I don’t think that it’s broken. I does sound god. Maybe it’s just my environment and ears. I’ve recorded a short wav file and if anybody’s would be nice and consider if this is harsh or not I would appreciate it highly.

Where was the mic placed and how smooth are your nails? I do hear a bit of raspiness but it sounds like it's accurate pick up of the source rather than adding insult to injury as it were.

[eagleman]

Originally Posted by Piedpiper

Where was the mic placed and how smooth are your nails? I do hear a bit of raspiness but it sounds like it's accurate pick up of the source rather than adding insult to injury as it were.

Thanks Piedpiper for taking your time!
I been listening at my recording at a friend’s place with another set of speakers and with different headphones and I must say it’s like another microphone. Really learned something about evaluating things today. It was also much easier to hear the difference in drBills sound files. Now I am quite happy again with my km84

[Piedpiper]

yup. accurate monitoring is everything...

[drBill]

Originally Posted by eagleman

Thanks for your answer Piedpiper.
I don’t think that it’s broken. I does sound god. Maybe it’s just my environment and ears. I’ve recorded a short wav file and if anybody’s would be nice and consider if this is harsh or not I would appreciate it highly.

That sounded great to me. It still has that characteristic full Neumann midrange, although, as you stated, the top is bright. But IMO it's not aggressively bright.

Originally Posted by Piedpiper

Where was the mic placed and how smooth are your nails? I do hear a bit of raspiness but it sounds like it's accurate pick up of the source rather than adding insult to injury as it were.

Yeah, it could be the instrument or your playing style. So many variables, and that's a great reason to have a lot of mic choices. I've been liking Ribbons on fingerpicked Acoustics as of late. They can be pretty sweet.

Originally Posted by eagleman

I been listening at my recording at a friend’s place with another set of speakers and with different headphones and I must say it’s like another microphone. Really learned something about evaluating things today. It was also much easier to hear the difference in drBills sound files. Now I am quite happy again with my km84

Originally Posted by Piedpiper

yup. accurate monitoring is everything...

Yeah, if you aren't hearing accurately, you're making all the wrong choices. One reason that monitors are possibly the most important purchase you can make. So subjective though.....