OktavaMod RODE NT1a vs. '70's U 87 - Page 12

ButchRockKramer · 27th May 2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael_Joly

Thanks for listening. File A is the OktavaMod'd NT1a, File B is the '70s U 87. At almost 400 listener votes, the mod'd NT1a still is identified as being the U 87 - by a percentage ratio of 53:47. This has remained quite constant since the beginning of the poll. Consistent listener impressions in other words.

1. I've got a RODE NT1000 from 2004. If I did the upgrade, how long would such a mic be likely to last? It's not considered a classic by anyone's stretch in its present form and hasn't seen much action as a result.

2. To what degree does the body such as LD vs SD body influence tone? Would a SD body render a tone more akin to a SDC mic? What is the difference in sound between getting this upgraded and buying a Jolly-upgraded MK012 body SCD mic and screwing the capsule into that? When that is out, of course. Or in the interim, one of the similar SDC mics. Just curious what the difference is, resulting from electronics/physical size differences. Michael points out the importance here of capsules, which is true enough as they are first point of call in the receiving chain. Despite some fellow gearslutz here loving the 'better than the real thing' U87 sound coming out of a Rode-modded mic, I'm surprised it does not sound [more logically] like a TLM 103 than a U87, being cardioid polar pattern only, due to a single (and not a double) diaphragm? Not saying it does, of course. Results of the blind shootout speak for themselves.

3. Also, what type of capsule is this you've got - a U47 style you say, but what was in the real 87? Does the housing enclosing the capsule affect tone and accuracy significantly, as per question 2 above.

4. Who loves this type of mic sound for rock + pop vox? I reckon it'd be good through 2 channels of tube preamp (out of channel 1, into channel 2 for more) - the tube gain upon tube gain effect. Kinda like how a full tube guitar amp gets driven through 2 tubes (pre+post tube amplification).

didier.brest · 12th June 2011

I preferred A and voted A as being the U87 before looking for the answer.
Well, I'm going to listen to these clips again...

Nice test anyway.

Piedpiper · 12th June 2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by didier.brest

I preferred A and voted A as being the U87 before looking for the answer.
Well, I'm going to listen to thes clips again...

Nice test anyway.

Of course, your preference, and which is the 87, are somewhat unrelated issues.

didier.brest · 12th June 2011

Of course they are related issues! Because my guess about which one was the U87 and my preference were strongly related. And my guess and the truth are statistically not independent... While being not always the same.

Piedpiper · 12th June 2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by didier.brest

Of course they are related issues! Because my guess about which one was the U87 and my preference were strongly related. And my guess and the truth are statistically not independent... While being not always the same.

no offense, but what I meant was that assuming that the one that you like better "must" be the Neumann because the Neumann "must" be better than the mod would be an inappropriate assumption. Given all the other variables in a shoot out like this, assuming that one could tell which was the Neumann even based on a lot of experience with U87s would be tenuous at best. This is the problem I have with shoot outs that are postured this way. This was not a comment on your particular assessment so much as the way the shoot out was set up.

binarymilton · 16th June 2011

Not sure why this thread has been revived and I can't be bothered to wade through all the posts to find out why. But it's an interesting one.

I check out a lot of these shoot-outs and always find them fascinating. Most of the time I think they are close calls.

But this time, I thought the differences between the two snippets was huge. Really different. I immediately disliked A a lot. Just sounded harsh, from the first syllable. The difference between how the mics work was much more pronounced on the vocals than on the guitar. If it had started with the guitar I might have felt differently. Vocal-wise, I thought A was pretty horrible.

Guitar-wise, it's more of a level playing field, though B is nicer overall. Much smoother, though slightly woollier in the bottom end.

drBill · 4th July 2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by suicidebomber

The pictures of the vocal shootout just make me cringe. Post something at least somewhat legit, because that just confirms my skepticism about any similarity that might exist between the two mic's sound... I would like to be proven wrong

How so? I did the shootout at Capitol with their huge mic collection. I can assure you, it was completely legit. If you have questions, feel free to ask. I'll try to answer.

drBill · 5th July 2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by suicidebomber

In the photo, it looks like the U87 is directly in front of the singer and very close up, with the oktava mod at least a few inches off to the side... and thats what it sounds like. I don't see why you guys didn't just have the u87 placed proportionally with the other mics. Legit? No. I would feel a bit duped had I purchased the oktava mod based on the audio examples before seeing the pics. It seems misleading to me

Were you there? Were the pics shot during the takes recorded? Or just random pics? Was that the final position of the mics? How far back was Oren when I pressed rec? Wouldn't that give the U87 a distinct advantage over the rest? You're making a lot of assumptions based on some random pics. But please let me know....

As for feeling duped, go ahead and feel duped if you like. There are a lot of happy owners (myself included) that don't feel duped and use them every day. There was a lot of high power ears there that day and we did our best on the shootout. There is NO perfect way to mitigate all variables on these things. SOMEONE is always going to suggest a different method. For what it's worth, Oren stood further back than normal to help mitigate the fact that the sweet spot was between 8" and a foot wide. IMO when you're back 18" to 2', the importance of the positionings mentioned shrink exponentially. It's not a perfect shootout as there is no such thing, but it give you a good idea IMO. Anyway, feel free to continue with your drive-by shootings (I find your screen name ironically appropriate) if you wish. As for the rest of us, we're busy here making music with those damn useless mics.

binarymilton · 5th July 2011

On the Oktavamod site, there are some soundfiles of a (very good) singer singing "Amazing Grace" into a modified NT1, compared to a U87.

They are very impressive: I can't tell much difference between them, and couldn't really say which one I preferred. They both sound excellent: it's a superb vindication of Joly's Rode mod.

Which has me rather confused, as that's very different to my reaction to the soundfiles posted here in the original post, in which the Rode mod sounds pretty harsh to me.

drBill · 5th July 2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by binarymilton

On the Oktavamod site, there are some soundfiles of a (very good) singer singing "Amazing Grace" into a modified NT1, compared to a U87.

They are very impressive: I can't tell much difference between them, and couldn't really say which one I preferred. They both sound excellent: it's a superb vindication of Joly's Rode mod.

Which has me rather confused, as that's very different to my reaction to the soundfiles posted here in the original post, in which the Rode mod sounds pretty harsh to me.

That's Oren Waters. I recorded those clips. Those clips are from the session where I posted the PICS that SB is referring to. And I agree, they are impressive. When I was referring to the mic clips, those are the clips I was talking about. This thread is a bit confusing as it has several clips from different people, and maybe suicidebomber is talking about some of the other clips while referring to the pics of my session. Honestly, I don't hear what he's talking about.

Lights · 7th July 2011

I'm an original NT1 owner that uses my mic largely for vocals: my own and my female vocalist, Aradia's. I'm *very* interested in this mod. Can folks who have the mod chime in on their experiences?

I'd also love folks' impressions of how I'd benefit based on the vocal recordings on my site (Lights Fade Low) all made with my original NT1. I think the clearest examples of male vox are on Looking, Fly (note I didn't record the female vox myself, they were done remotely from London), and Please. Best female vox is also on Looking, and Cold.

Piedpiper · 9th July 2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by suicidebomber

sorry guys, epic fail by me. I was thinking of a video I saw on another oktavamod mic and I must be getting confused with nt1a shootouts too, because the amazing grace demo on their site sounds like both mics are placed in mostly optimal settings and are very similar sounding. I am very interested now. I would like to hear some clips on close electric guitar cab micing. Again, sorry. I am a total ass

personally, I've never tasted my own foot, but I can imagine...

binarymilton · 9th July 2011

Well it's easily done though: the speech clips and acoustic guitar clips posted by Michael Joly in the original post in this thread don't sound very good, to my ears.

On the spoken "she sells sea shells on the sea shore", all the esses sound very sibiliant and harsh compared to the U87. The acoustic guitar sounds more brittle than the U87 too.

Whereas the Oren Waters "Amazing Grace", i really can't hear any difference. Is it simply that Amazing Grace was recorded using a good pop filter, and the spoken "she sells..." not?

drBill · 9th July 2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by binarymilton

Is it simply that Amazing Grace was recorded using a good pop filter, and the spoken "she sells..." not?

I can't speak for any of the clips other than the ones I recorded personally. When I do it, I do it in ONE pass so that the performance is identical (at least that's what I shoot for, although logistically, that's not always possible) and use good placement and good mic pre's. Preferably in a good room as well. This time, on Amazing Grace, those went thru the console's pre's. Neve 88R.

drBill · 9th July 2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by suicidebomber

sorry guys, epic fail by me. I was thinking of a video I saw on another oktavamod mic and I must be getting confused with nt1a shootouts too, because the amazing grace demo on their site sounds like both mics are placed in mostly optimal settings and are very similar sounding. I am very interested now. I would like to hear some clips on close electric guitar cab micing. Again, sorry. I am a total ass

SB - thanks for the clarification. Takes a big man.

Lights · 10th July 2011

Ok, did I miss it? Which Amazing Grace version was the U87 and whch was the modded NT1? The only difference I could tell was near the end of the recording Mic1 had (to me) a nicer saturation than Mic4.

drBill · 10th July 2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lights

Ok, did I miss it? Which Amazing Grace version was the U87 and whch was the modded NT1? The only difference I could tell was near the end of the recording Mic1 had (to me) a nicer saturation than Mic4.

Can't remember off the top of my head. An email to MJ @ Oktavamod will get you an answer though.

gnuyork · 28th July 2011

I know I am way late in the game with this shootout, but reading that the Rode NT1a is known to be one of the quietest condensers I listened carefully to the background noise, and it was clear to me file A was quieter. This was before I scrolled ahead to see the answer.

All in all, both sounded good to me ears.

I have a Joly 1050 on the way. I hope it sounds as good as these!!

vicnest · 14th October 2011

Has anybody order from Michael lately?
I couldn't reach him via e-mail. for a week, but my first mail one year ago got repliance quickly.

Not sure if he re-block the hotmail.

Mike Jasper · 14th October 2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by vicnest

Has anybody order from Michael lately?
I couldn't reach him via e-mail. for a week, but my first mail one year ago got repliance quickly.

Not sure if he re-block the hotmail.

Have you tried contacting him in English?

vicnest · 14th October 2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Jasper

Have you tried contacting him in English?

Weird question indeed.
Didn't I type in English?

vicnest · 15th October 2011

I've got his mail.
ISP errors early in the week.

adamj31 · 26th February 2012

I've got a Rode NT1 (original NT1, not the NT1A), and I've been doing a bit of research on the U87 mod that can be done. I understand the Michael Joly does a good mod on these, most significantly replacing the capsule and headbasket.

Now I am sure that it's great work, but I am a DIY diehard, and would rather have the satisfaction of learning how to work on these myself. I have decided on either the RK-47 capsule from microphone-parts.com or the Peluso P-K47 capsule. I'm still not certain on which would be the best bang for the buck there, as the Peluso is over 100 dollars more expensive.

Through my research, I understand the Jim Williams designed these mics, specifically, the NT1 uses really high-quality electronics, more so than the NT1A's. When Rode decided they needed to increase profit, they decreased produciton costs by using cheaper, surface-mount components, unlike the through-hole design of the NT1.

My biggest head-scratcher is finding a headbasket for this mic with a more open design. I just can't seem to find anyone making replacement or modded versions of headbaskets. It sounds as though Michael Joly has found someone to make these, but I'm wondering if anyone has a lead that I might be able to follow. I understand one of the design flaws of this mic is the tight-weaved nature of the headbasket mesh as it nears the body of the mic.

I'm looking for something that stays more open. I know it has been suggested to remove the inner-mesh, but I'm looking for something more along the 'Joly' line, with replacing the entire headbasket.

Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated!

Basslik · 26th February 2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lights

I'm an original NT1 owner that uses my mic largely for vocals: my own and my female vocalist, Aradia's. I'm *very* interested in this mod. Can folks who have the mod chime in on their experiences?

I'd also love folks' impressions of how I'd benefit based on the vocal recordings on my site (Lights Fade Low) all made with my original NT1. I think the clearest examples of male vox are on Looking, Fly (note I didn't record the female vox myself, they were done remotely from London), and Please. Best female vox is also on Looking, and Cold.

I was really wanting to MOD my matched pair of RODE NT1's, but the combination of Joy raising his price and discovering this awesome mic, the (SHURE KSM32) was a no-brainer for me personally, and the KSM32 recommended from a great engineer who's crafted great mixes with this mic. Sold my RODES and purchased (2) KSM32's, couldn't be happier, and saved a lot of cash too!
The Shure KSM32: A Love Story - YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-dp54stLdM Notice she got closer when she approached the u87.

adamj31 · 28th February 2012

Cool, thanks for the recommendation on the KSM32! I'll definitely have to check that one out.

I'm looking to DIY my NT1 mod. From what I hear, the NT1's have pretty excellent electronics in them already, and major improvements can be had from replacing the capsule and headbasket.

Jrestes927 · 28th February 2012

I liked File A better. Has a nice amount of warmth without being muddy, and high end just sparkles without being harsh.

Ordering my mod for this mic soon!

Basslik · 28th February 2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by adamj31

Cool, thanks for the recommendation on the KSM32! I'll definitely have to check that one out.

I'm looking to DIY my NT1 mod. From what I hear, the NT1's have pretty excellent electronics in them already, and major improvements can be had from replacing the capsule and headbasket.

Then you love this DIY mod for your NT1., also has sound clips.

Rode NT-1 Headbasket Modification Before and After
Rode NT1 Headbasket Mod

Jean30 · 4 Weeks Ago

I didn't red all the post, but for the 2 files on the begining, I think File A is U87, not because I prefer it (so I do also) but, because medium are richer are less bass and high frequencies than File B.

In file A,there is also like a very intersting distorsion wich gives life to the sound, may be the transformer of the U87, this type of effect which is not easy to create with plugins.

File B is very good also but too clean for me, and if I'm wrong I will buy immediately the File A microphone.

I suppose the answer will be in Private Message.

My best regards

Jean.

Piedpiper · 4 Weeks Ago

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean30

I didn't red all the post, ...

I suppose the answer will be in Private Message.

If you read the thread, you will find the answer. You won't have to look far if you read backwards...

Jean30 · 4 Weeks Ago

Many thanks, I found it, always surprising. There is someting magic in the File A.

Sometimes, there is no explaination. 2 days ago, I helped a friend to record a bugle, I had no experience about that and took a sennheiser MD441 and a Nady scm 1000 in figure of 8 to have a M/S record. Nady was 1 meter behind the MD441, not a very usal system.

The result was excellent !!! We had only 1 headphone (for the instrumentist), home studio material in the room, so no direct control available, just a look at the level to have no overload !!!

Perhaps the secret was an excellent room with wood on the ceiling and an incredible disorder around, wich have a good absorbsion/reflection caracteristic.

View Poll Results: Which file is the '70's Neumann U 87 "purple badge"
File A	240	52.06%
File B	221	47.94%
Voters: 461. You may not vote on this poll

12th June 2011	#332
didier.brest Lives for gear Joined: Dec 2008 Posts: 1,791	I preferred A and voted A as being the U87 before looking for the answer. Well, I'm going to listen to these clips again... Nice test anyway. __________________ Brauner - FLEA shoot-out Brauner - Manley shoot-out Schoeps MK21 vs. Oktava MK-012 & RME FF400 vs. Steinberg MR816X Steinberg MR816X vs. DAV BG1 Listen to Nevaton MC48

7th July 2011	#341
Lights Lives for gear Joined: Oct 2010 Location: Seattle Posts: 1,029 7 Reviews written	I'm an original NT1 owner that uses my mic largely for vocals: my own and my female vocalist, Aradia's. I'm very interested in this mod. Can folks who have the mod chime in on their experiences? I'd also love folks' impressions of how I'd benefit based on the vocal recordings on my site (Lights Fade Low) all made with my original NT1. I think the clearest examples of male vox are on Looking, Fly (note I didn't record the female vox myself, they were done remotely from London), and Please. Best female vox is also on Looking, and Cold. __________________ www.lightsfadelow.com facebook - amazon [cd][MP3] - iTunes

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Rode NT1a	Wally	Low End Theory	33	15th September 2008 07:32 AM
Rode Nt1a Vs. Rode NTK?	masta1	Rap + Hip Hop engineering & production	1	27th February 2008 11:17 AM

12th June 2011	#334
didier.brest Lives for gear Joined: Dec 2008 Posts: 1,791	Of course they are related issues! Because my guess about which one was the U87 and my preference were strongly related. And my guess and the truth are statistically not independent... While being not always the same.

16th June 2011	#336
binarymilton Lives for gear Joined: Feb 2010 Location: London Posts: 1,389	Not sure why this thread has been revived and I can't be bothered to wade through all the posts to find out why. But it's an interesting one. I check out a lot of these shoot-outs and always find them fascinating. Most of the time I think they are close calls. But this time, I thought the differences between the two snippets was huge. Really different. I immediately disliked A a lot. Just sounded harsh, from the first syllable. The difference between how the mics work was much more pronounced on the vocals than on the guitar. If it had started with the guitar I might have felt differently. Vocal-wise, I thought A was pretty horrible. Guitar-wise, it's more of a level playing field, though B is nicer overall. Much smoother, though slightly woollier in the bottom end.

5th July 2011	#339
binarymilton Lives for gear Joined: Feb 2010 Location: London Posts: 1,389	On the Oktavamod site, there are some soundfiles of a (very good) singer singing "Amazing Grace" into a modified NT1, compared to a U87. They are very impressive: I can't tell much difference between them, and couldn't really say which one I preferred. They both sound excellent: it's a superb vindication of Joly's Rode mod. Which has me rather confused, as that's very different to my reaction to the soundfiles posted here in the original post, in which the Rode mod sounds pretty harsh to me.

9th July 2011	#343
binarymilton Lives for gear Joined: Feb 2010 Location: London Posts: 1,389	Well it's easily done though: the speech clips and acoustic guitar clips posted by Michael Joly in the original post in this thread don't sound very good, to my ears. On the spoken "she sells sea shells on the sea shore", all the esses sound very sibiliant and harsh compared to the U87. The acoustic guitar sounds more brittle than the U87 too. Whereas the Oren Waters "Amazing Grace", i really can't hear any difference. Is it simply that Amazing Grace was recorded using a good pop filter, and the spoken "she sells..." not?

10th July 2011	#346
Lights Lives for gear Joined: Oct 2010 Location: Seattle Posts: 1,029 7 Reviews written	Ok, did I miss it? Which Amazing Grace version was the U87 and whch was the modded NT1? The only difference I could tell was near the end of the recording Mic1 had (to me) a nicer saturation than Mic4.

28th July 2011	#348
gnuyork Gear interested Joined: Jul 2011 Location: Marietta, GA Posts: 18	I know I am way late in the game with this shootout, but reading that the Rode NT1a is known to be one of the quietest condensers I listened carefully to the background noise, and it was clear to me file A was quieter. This was before I scrolled ahead to see the answer. All in all, both sounded good to me ears. I have a Joly 1050 on the way. I hope it sounds as good as these!!

14th October 2011	#349
vicnest Gear Head Joined: Oct 2009 Posts: 31	Has anybody order from Michael lately? I couldn't reach him via e-mail. for a week, but my first mail one year ago got repliance quickly. Not sure if he re-block the hotmail.

15th October 2011	#352
vicnest Gear Head Joined: Oct 2009 Posts: 31	I've got his mail. ISP errors early in the week.

26th February 2012	#353
adamj31 Gear Head Joined: Jun 2010 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 47 1 Review written	I've got a Rode NT1 (original NT1, not the NT1A), and I've been doing a bit of research on the U87 mod that can be done. I understand the Michael Joly does a good mod on these, most significantly replacing the capsule and headbasket. Now I am sure that it's great work, but I am a DIY diehard, and would rather have the satisfaction of learning how to work on these myself. I have decided on either the RK-47 capsule from microphone-parts.com or the Peluso P-K47 capsule. I'm still not certain on which would be the best bang for the buck there, as the Peluso is over 100 dollars more expensive. Through my research, I understand the Jim Williams designed these mics, specifically, the NT1 uses really high-quality electronics, more so than the NT1A's. When Rode decided they needed to increase profit, they decreased produciton costs by using cheaper, surface-mount components, unlike the through-hole design of the NT1. My biggest head-scratcher is finding a headbasket for this mic with a more open design. I just can't seem to find anyone making replacement or modded versions of headbaskets. It sounds as though Michael Joly has found someone to make these, but I'm wondering if anyone has a lead that I might be able to follow. I understand one of the design flaws of this mic is the tight-weaved nature of the headbasket mesh as it nears the body of the mic. I'm looking for something that stays more open. I know it has been suggested to remove the inner-mesh, but I'm looking for something more along the 'Joly' line, with replacing the entire headbasket. Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated!

28th February 2012	#355
adamj31 Gear Head Joined: Jun 2010 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 47 1 Review written	Cool, thanks for the recommendation on the KSM32! I'll definitely have to check that one out. I'm looking to DIY my NT1 mod. From what I hear, the NT1's have pretty excellent electronics in them already, and major improvements can be had from replacing the capsule and headbasket.

28th February 2012	#356
Jrestes927 Gear interested Joined: Aug 2009 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 7	I liked File A better. Has a nice amount of warmth without being muddy, and high end just sparkles without being harsh. Ordering my mod for this mic soon!

4 Weeks Ago	#358
Jean30 Gear Head Joined: Feb 2012 Posts: 36	I didn't red all the post, but for the 2 files on the begining, I think File A is U87, not because I prefer it (so I do also) but, because medium are richer are less bass and high frequencies than File B. In file A,there is also like a very intersting distorsion wich gives life to the sound, may be the transformer of the U87, this type of effect which is not easy to create with plugins. File B is very good also but too clean for me, and if I'm wrong I will buy immediately the File A microphone. I suppose the answer will be in Private Message. My best regards Jean.

4 Weeks Ago	#360
Jean30 Gear Head Joined: Feb 2012 Posts: 36	Many thanks, I found it, always surprising. There is someting magic in the File A. Sometimes, there is no explaination. 2 days ago, I helped a friend to record a bugle, I had no experience about that and took a sennheiser MD441 and a Nady scm 1000 in figure of 8 to have a M/S record. Nady was 1 meter behind the MD441, not a very usal system. The result was excellent !!! We had only 1 headphone (for the instrumentist), home studio material in the room, so no direct control available, just a look at the level to have no overload !!! Perhaps the secret was an excellent room with wood on the ceiling and an incredible disorder around, wich have a good absorbsion/reflection caracteristic.