SSL Duende X-Verb Lexicon inspired?

[rhythminmind]

While demoing the SSL Duende X-verb I noticed the preset names seemed very familiar. I noticed the similarity to the Lexicon gear that i’m used to dealing with. That got my curiosity churning. Time for a comparison I say. I pulled up some multitrack drum noodling & a verb bus comparing both the X-verb & Lexicon m300. The result? It’s now of my opinion the X-verb team was influenced if not down right trying to replace the classic Lexicon hardware we know.

For the comparison I pulled up similar named presets on both the X-verb/ m300 & recorded the results @ 24/48.

MP3 Examples -

• 300 – Live Drum Room
• X – Live Drum Room

• 300 Studio A
• X – Studio A

• 300 – Small hall
• X – Small hall

• 300 – Rich Plate
• X – Rich Plate

• 300 – rehearsal room
• X – rehearsal room

• 300 – large hall
• X – large hall

• 300 – Hanger
• X – Hanger

• 300 – Glossy Plate
• X – Glossy Plate

• 300 – Deep End
• X – Deep Space

• 300 – Dance Hall
• X – Dance Hall

• 300 – Church
• X – gothic Church

• 300 – chamber
• X – Natural chamber

• 300 – Brick Wall
• X – Brick Wall

Edit/Addition -

Rough manual settings match -

• 300m
• Xm

70 example.

• pcm70
• x70

After spending sometime with the inner control of X-Verb I feel one can re-create all of the “magic” of the hardware we have come to expect. I didn’t find a “hole/limitation” of control or feature set. Good stuff.



Web streamable version located here X-Verb Lexicon inspired?

Original drum noodle. 24/48 .wav drum-noodle.wav


...

[anguswoodhead]

Nice.
That would be very smart of SSL.
Lexicon is the sound we all know and love.

[SWAN808]

wow they are similar. At this early stage I would say I probably prefer the Lexi examples....but X-Verb seems very good.

thanks for this - not many X Verb examples around...

[rhythminmind]

Yes they are similar. Impressive for sure.. Put some headphones on & the stereo image/placement seems to be the biggest difference to my ears (other then obvious preset differences). Both devices seem to have a placement characteristic.
I didn't try tweaking the X-verb, but off the bat the 300 seems to have a better mix/blending quality. Might be as simple as changing a width parameter.

[thermos]

Originally Posted by rhythminmind

Yes they are similar. Impressive for sure.. Put some headphones on & the stereo image/placement seems to be the biggest difference to my ears (other then obvious preset differences). Both devices seem to have a placement characteristic.
I didn't try tweaking the X-verb, but off the bat the 300 seems to have a better mix/blending quality. Might be as simple as changing a width parameter.

I'm gonna listen as soon as I'm done working. Thanks so much. The "mixability" seems like the major hurdle now of plug verbs, hopefully this one is better.

[thermos]

Cool, listened on my Proacs.

The Lex sounds A LOT better, but the X-Verb is good too. X-Verb actually sounds narrower bandwidth across the board, as if they were going for that sound and maybe overshot a little (though maybe the more band passed sound is what a 480 sounds like, kinda doubt it though). Also not as full in the low end, and doesn't quite attach itself to the source as seamlessly, almost more phasey or something. Its pleasant though, and I think it could be useful. Not sure if I'll get it though......I'll demo and see for myself.

Oh yeah, and X-Verb also seems a little less dynamic. I think that may be the main difference about how it attaches and blends with the original signal.

[rhythminmind]

For sure. The Lex examples do have lot more high & low bandwidth content that just seems to jump..
It's always surprising how long these old boxes are holding there ground.. It's the only "digital" thing thats seems to keep value.

[rhythminmind]

Would love to hear the new Lex PCM plugins in compression as well. See if they are continuing the legacy or not.

[spicemix]

Isn't the X-EQ an OEMed Algorithmix Blue?

The X-Verb may very well be Lexicon's own code, perhaps with a few simplifications etc.



BTW OP your impulses run through LiquidSonics Reverberate are AWESOME! Please do more True Stereo versions!

[thermos]

Originally Posted by spicemix

Isn't the X-EQ an OEMed Algorithmix Blue?

The X-Verb may very well be Lexicon's own code, perhaps with a few simplifications etc.

It was coded by the guys who did CSR I believe (from reading the other epic thread).

[spicemix]

Originally Posted by thermos

It was coded by the guys who did CSR I believe (from reading the other epic thread).

Does it null with CSR?

[Coyoteous]

Originally Posted by thermos

It was coded by the guys who did CSR I believe (from reading the other epic thread).

Martin Lind / Relab Development (Warp69 here)

[thermos]

Originally Posted by spicemix

Does it null with CSR?

Hell no! Does honey null with S$$T? Sorry, I'm not a CSR fan.

Martin said the CSR code is pretty old at this point.

[spicemix]

Ah. Thx

Originally Posted by Warp69

Suddenly? Of course there're experienced people involved in high-end algorithm designs.

The algorithms from CSR are almost 7 years old. You'll be surprised where you can find our algorithms.

[Warp69]

Originally Posted by rhythminmind

For the comparison I pulled up similar named presets on both the X-verb/ m300 & recorded the results @ 24/48.

I don't have or have ever used a m300 so the following could be wrong, but I doubt it since I have other models.

You can't match X-Verb to m300 by just using similar named presets - there's also alot of differences between X-Verb and Lexicon but you can probably get very close - but not by using 48KHz.

The Lexicon reverb is tweaked for 48KHz operation - meaning it doesn't scale internal values according to chosen samplerate (44.1 or 48). If you use 44.1KHz on the Lexicon and use 100ms delay for the first reflection (or it could be for the predelay - it doesn't matter) you should get 4410 samples delay (which equals to 100ms at 44.100Hz samplerate), but you don't - you get 4800 samples delay (which equals to 109ms at 44.100Hz samplerate). So the perceived size of the reverb actually change abit if you change samplerate on the Lexicon.

[rhythminmind]

I was running @ 48k so the m300 timing should be correct no?
I've tried to make it clear this wasn't an exact comparison. I just noticed that many of the X-verb presets seemed Lex inspired so I compared the two. Nothing more. These preset names have made it onto a few lex units. Would the pcm 80/90 series be a closer comparison rather then the older units?
All in all I find X-verb a great itb solution. Seems like the best choice to replace my flaky PCM 70.

[thermos]

Originally Posted by rhythminmind

I was running @ 48k so the m300 timing should be correct no?
I've tried to make it clear this wasn't an exact comparison. I just noticed that many of the X-verb presets seemed Lex inspired so I compared the two. Nothing more. These preset names have made it onto a few lex units. Would the pcm 80/90 series be a closer comparison rather then the older units?
All in all I find X-verb a great itb solution. Seems like the best choice to replace my flaky PCM 70.

Wow if it can do that, thats saying something. I just want X-Verb to possibly replace my Rumour (which is not awesome, but blends well and sounds wide). When the Lex plugs come out, then I try to replace my PCM 70.

[Warp69]

Originally Posted by rhythminmind

I was running @ 48k so the m300 timing should be correct no?

Correct. But it would be different from X-Verb.

Originally Posted by rhythminmind

the pcm 80/90 series be a closer comparison rather then the older units

Nope - X-Verb was not designed to replace the pcm80/90/96, but rather the older models - if you tweak the presets.

[SWAN808]

Originally Posted by thermos

Hell no! Does honey null with S$$T? Sorry, I'm not a CSR fan.

ha ha

[rhythminmind]

I'm digging deeper into X-verb.. Great layout I must say. Most of the 300 controls are mapping/translating out nicely.
Do you know what the equivalent controls would be in X-Verb for -

Treble Decay =
Spin = Lifelyness?
Wander = Cho Rate?
Decay Envelope Shape =
Early Echo Spread =

[Warp69]

Im unfamiliar with some of the mentioned parameters - I have downloaded the manual and I would imagine that you can get similar behaviour with these :

Set Definition to 0%

Treble Decay : Set 'High Time' to 0.2 and then the 'High XOver' function as TDC
Spin : Lifelyness
Wan : Floatation
Diffusion = Density
Spread = Attack
Decay Envelope Shape : I have no idea - can't even find it in the manual.(Are you sure it's not a SoftSlider?)
Early Echo Spread : as the above.

[rhythminmind]

Rough manual settings match -

• 300m
• Xm

After spending sometime with the inner control of X-Verb I feel one can re-create all of the “magic” of the hardware I’ve have come to expect. I didn’t find a “hole/limitation” of it’s control or feature set. Good stuff.

Once I rotated the image from 45 to 315deg (L/R swap) it matched the 300. I was surprised at this actually. It made me double check my I/O & channel config.

[rhythminmind]

Originally Posted by Warp69

Im unfamiliar with some of the mentioned parameters - I have downloaded the manual and I would imagine that you can get similar behaviour with these :

Set Definition to 0%

Treble Decay : Set 'High Time' to 0.2 and then the 'High XOver' function as TDC
Spin : Lifelyness
Wan : Floatation
Diffusion = Density
Spread = Attack
Decay Envelope Shape : I have no idea - can't even find it in the manual.(Are you sure it's not a SoftSlider?)
Early Echo Spread : as the above.

I'm now playing with a plate preset on the 300.
What do you think the "Randomization ChannelGain" would translate to?

[rhythminmind]

I just dialed up a quick pcm "tiled room" & i'm impressed. Being that the pcm 70 is a mono input I had to dumb down & mono sum the input of the X-verb with a utility plugin 1st.
I have to say I have a new respect for X-verb. If it was the only verb I had available I wouldn't be missing to much. Ok i'm done giving SSL a free trade-show speech .

70 example.

• pcm70
• x70

[Warp69]

Originally Posted by rhythminmind

I'm now playing with a plate preset on the 300.
What do you think the "Randomization ChannelGain" would translate to?

Im really guessing here, but I would imagine that it could be translated to a combination of 'Cho Rate' and 'Cho Depth'. Im unable to verify, but does the RAN on the plate algorithm have a chorus effect?

Both of your tests, the X-Verb have shorter reverb time than the Lexicon test - you should probably have a setting that is longer (in some cases way longer) for the X-Verb.

Originally Posted by rhythminmind

Being that the pcm 70 is a mono input I had to dumb down & mono sum the input of the X-verb with a utility plugin 1st

X-Verb can sum the input for you - just use the Crossover parameter.

[thermos]

Originally Posted by rhythminmind

I just dialed up a quick pcm "tiled room" & i'm impressed. Being that the pcm 70 is a mono input I had to dumb down & mono sum the input of the X-verb with a utility plugin 1st.
I have to say I have a new respect for X-verb. If it was the only verb I had available I wouldn't be missing to much. Ok i'm done giving SSL a free trade-show speech .

70 example.

• pcm70
• x70

Sweet. Nice work, X-verb still more compressed, but a great sounding verb no doubt.

Edit: currently demoing X-verb. Care to share how you got that Tile room setting? Also, how are you finding the sound of the other V3 plugs (compared to V2)? They sound good, but DEFINITELY different.

[spicemix]

Would you consider putting up a WAV of the dry drum thing so we could play with matching these to other things?

[rhythminmind]

I'll post the preset & .wav when I get back tonight.

[spicemix]

Originally Posted by rhythminmind

I'll post the preset & .wav when I get back tonight.

Thank you! You're awesome!

[rhythminmind]

Originally Posted by spicemix

Would you consider putting up a WAV of the dry drum thing so we could play with matching these to other things?

original drum noodle. 24/48 .wav drum-noodle.wav

Originally Posted by thermos

Sweet. Nice work, X-verb still more compressed, but a great sounding verb no doubt.

Edit: currently demoing X-verb. Care to share how you got that Tile room setting? Also, how are you finding the sound of the other V3 plugs (compared to V2)? They sound good, but DEFINITELY different.

T room.xverb & Check out Duende Ver 3 / Ver 2 Signal analysis
I'm happy with the sound of ver 3. I haven't found anything wrong with the sound. I have found bugs with the plugins themselves in ver 3.