Wunder CM7 vs Beesneez T1 vs U87i vs Beesneez James

[drBill]

Originally Posted by xj32

Yep that's what I keep coming back to as missing in my collection...probably pick up a new one his year. I pretty much don't buy vintage, I just don't trust it. Never know if you are getting a golden one or a piece or crap.

Well I did luck out with my KM-84's...they look beat, no badges, but they sound amazing.

XJ

Well, definitely audition it to make sure you're getting what you expect. I've got an early 80's version with the battery compartment, and it's stellar. The best I've ever heard (87-wise). I've had pretty good luck with vintage gear, but I know what you mean. BTW, why are all 84's missing their badges.... Mine are gone too.

[Docmattic]

Originally Posted by mics

Like an AM Radio!!!

The tube in the James has a high plate impedance meaning that it needs to be paired with a transformer that has a high windings ratio ie 10.5:1 where the tribute's plate impedance is much lower.

cheers

haha. at least it could sing for the artist if they were having trouble.

[MadGuitrst]

Well, I'm glad to see I got them all correct, as usual .

These dang-darn shitouts are just so flawed, what with the studio owner, ahem.... singing and all.

Anyway, thanks for the fun Angus, even if you got the mics mixed up

[DONNX]

The U87 a true standard in the industry. The competition was tough. T1 and the U87 did well in the battle.

[illacov]

Ben I PM'd you.

Peace
Illumination

[Piedpiper]

The CM7 being the odd man out for me was a big surprise. Anyone know which capsule this one had? Also, Ben, any clue as to why the Wunder sounded as "bad" as it did? Don't mean to get you out on a limb but inquiring minds want to know. Or perhaps it's safer to ask what differentiates your T1 that makes it SO different from the Wunder?

[mics]

hi there, whilst it would be presumptious and unprofessional of me to talk about another manufacturers microphone, i can let you know a few things about the tribute.

In my manufacture of the tribute, i have really tried to keep it simple, i make sure every capsule is perfect (well to my ears and desires anyway). I make sure that the tube specs very well even before it is burnt in. The capacitors i use are a paper in oil capacitor that really helps with the tone. The transformer is of course a cinemag that is a big lump of thing and sounds superb. Pair all of this with the best teflon coated (for heat) silver hookup wire and the most substancially built body on the market today (you can hit it with a car and it'll live to tell the story)and you have a tribute.

I own numerous 47's and the tribute is as close to them as they are to each other which brings me to the age old statement that all u47's sound different and yes they do. The u47 is more a signature than an exact sound. most good engineers can spot a 47 tone form a mile away. I attribute this suble sonic variety to the vf14 as no 2 of them ever sounded exactly the same.

As for the wunder, call them, i am sure they can fill you in on any details you are wanting.

cheers

[Piedpiper]

Thanks, Ben. I knew I was asking for the unadvisable, if not the impossible.

[DONNX]

Originally Posted by mics

the most substancially built body on the market today (you can hit it with a car and it'll live to tell the story)and you have a tribute.

cheers

Ben right on!! I can't tell you how many times I have seen dented U87 bodies. The sight just makes me cringe. Finally we have a mic that can endure the industry whip lashes of audio slavery.

And bet this even enhances the tone of the mic. I really happy to have a well built high quality mic. The new body design was a smart move for Bees Neez IMHO.

Ben got a question. On the original U47s, what kind of capacitor were used on that. I know they were branded by Bosch and are hard to find nowdays. Just curious if the originals used PIO, polypropylene. electrolytic ,polytetrafluorethylene (Teflon), etc. I noticed that Wagner, Wunder, or Telefunken USA uses a yellow colored modern capacitor ( maybe a Cornell Dubilier brand, or ERO (german) capacitors but not sure..).
Wagner wouldn't tell me what brand and type he used because wanted it to be a secret... But it seems the three brands mentioned, decided to use a "YELLOW" colored polypropylene type capacitor. Flea47 uses a green PIO as well so I guess they felt what you felt in deciding what type of cap to use... Not to say I don't like the sound of the PIO. I think is smooth as butter. Really like it... My Pearlman had a WIMA..and it was more open in the high end and modern sounding/clean. Just want to why you decided to use the PIO instead of what the other brand U47 clones use.

Thanks for the info.

[mics]

Originally Posted by DONNX

Ben got a question. On the original U47s, what kind of capacitor were used on that. I know they were branded by Bosch and are hard to find nowdays. Just curious if the originals used PIO, polypropylene. electrolytic ,polytetrafluorethylene (Teflon), etc. I noticed that Wagner, Wunder, or Telefunken USA uses a yellow colored modern capacitor ( maybe a Cornell Dubilier brand, or ERO (german) capacitors but not sure..).
Wagner wouldn't tell me what brand and type he used because wanted it to be a secret... But it seems the three brands mentioned, decided to use a "YELLOW" colored polypropylene type capacitor. Flea47 uses a green PIO as well so I guess they felt what you felt in deciding what type of cap to use... Not to say I don't like the sound of the PIO. I think is smooth as butter. Really like it... My Pearlman had a WIMA..and it was more open in the high end and modern sounding/clean. Just want to why you decided to use the PIO instead of what the other brand U47 clones use.

Thanks for the info.

Hi Don,

The most common cap in the U47 clones is a film cap (the yellow ERO that you mentioned). The original cap from the U47 was Paper and Tar which is very similar to Paper in oil.

To capture the vintage vibe in the tribute, i have tried to use as many era appropriate parts as possible. I did try many different caps as coupling caps in the T1 but every time i ended up loving the PIO.

cheers

[Piedpiper]

Originally Posted by mics

The transformer is of course a cinemag that is a big lump of thing and sounds superb.

'nother awkward question. Are you aware of and/or have tried any transformers that you like even better than the Cinemag but are prohibitively expensive in the context of your target budget, maybe something by Sowter or more expensive.

Many folks assume erroneously that products at a certain level are using the best possible parts in existence. Manufacturers typically don't want to pop their bubble that there are VERY few products that are truly not compromised, at least to the extent that is possible. The same question could be asked re: capacitors. For instance Duelund caps are extraordinary but huge and extremely expensive. They would be a lot more revealing than the PIO caps but also not as euphonically smooth and sweet. Besides adding at least another $1k to the price, they wouldn't begin to fit in the housing. More affordable but still expensive and useable size-wise would be the DynamiCaps I often use. They are smooth but revealing. What values we talking? REL RTX are very good as well and cheaper still.

Care to share?

[mics]

Originally Posted by Piedpiper

'nother awkward question. Are you aware of and/or have tried any transformers that you like even better than the Cinemag but are prohibitively expensive in the context of your target budget, maybe something by Sowter or more expensive.

Many folks assume erroneously that products at a certain level are using the best possible parts in existence. Manufacturers typically don't want to pop their bubble that there are VERY few products that are truly not compromised, at least to the extent that is possible. The same question could be asked re: capacitors. For instance Duelund caps are extraordinary but huge and extremely expensive. They would be a lot more revealing than the PIO caps but also not as euphonically smooth and sweet. Besides adding at least another $1k to the price, they wouldn't begin to fit in the housing. More affordable but still expensive and useable size-wise would be the DynamiCaps I often use. They are smooth but revealing. What values we talking?

Care to share?

Hi again,

You are right in that manufacturing a product needs to be a carefully thought out process whereby any and all part are carefully scrutenised and chosen on merit and pricepoint.

In my oppinion, paper in oil caps are the best choice for the T1 as they are both sonically and physically appropriate for the mic. I have tried film caps, I even use an ERO roederstein 1uf capacitor in the Arabella (the yellow one), this is ONE of the reasons that the Arabella and Tribute sound very different.

I have tried many transformers, souter, ludahl, harbuch etc, every time i go back to Cinemag. They are an amazing sounding transformer and what i find even more important than pricepoint is consistancy and that they are. The cinemag transformer is by no means cheap either but it is worth it.

cheers

[Piedpiper]

Originally Posted by mics

Hi again,

You are right in that manufacturing a product needs to be a carefully thought out process whereby any and all part are carefully scrutenised and chosen on merit and pricepoint.

In my oppinion, paper in oil caps are the best choice for the T1 as they are both sonically and phisically appropriate for the mic. I have tried film caps, I even use an ERO roederstein 1uf capacitor in the Arabella (the yellow one), this is ONE of the reasons that the Arabella and Tribute sound very different.

I have tried many transformers, souter, ludahl, harbuch etc, every time i go back to Cinemag. They are an amazing sounding transformer and what i find even more important than pricepoint is consistancy and that they are. The cinemag transformer is by no means cheap either but it is worth it.

cheers

thanks for your candor, and your speed!

[DONNX]

Ben made the right choice IMO. The cinemag (also Reichenbach) is the best all rounder transformer availiable today. To me jensen is hi fi-ish.. excels on the high end shelf. Sowter is iron neve like but not like st ives.....Lundahl are exceptional on low end instruments like the kick and bass. Thick sounding

But the cinemag excels on voice, bass, all of it.... When we talk about cinemag. I am thinking inward connections (some of the best made gear today), a designs, Bees neez, Aspen Pittman Grooove tubes (the vipre what a MONSTER pre), Universal Audio, etc....all wonderful pieces of gear. Tell me if I am wrong. But Soundelux mics use cinemags as well.

The Tab BV8R from tab funkenwerk and used in Wunder, Telefunken USA U47s is nice. Seems very high output. But if I had to pick, the cinemag would be my choice based on my experience with both. But nothing would beat the original Neumann BV8 Transformer.

Ben, have you tried the Haufe brand yet? Neumann used them.



Cheers

Originally Posted by mics

Hi again,

You are right in that manufacturing a product needs to be a carefully thought out process whereby any and all part are carefully scrutenised and chosen on merit and pricepoint.

In my oppinion, paper in oil caps are the best choice for the T1 as they are both sonically and physically appropriate for the mic. I have tried film caps, I even use an ERO roederstein 1uf capacitor in the Arabella (the yellow one), this is ONE of the reasons that the Arabella and Tribute sound very different.

I have tried many transformers, souter, ludahl, harbuch etc, every time i go back to Cinemag. They are an amazing sounding transformer and what i find even more important than pricepoint is consistancy and that they are. The cinemag transformer is by no means cheap either but it is worth it.

cheers

[Piedpiper]

Originally Posted by DONNX

Ben made the right choice IMO. The cinemag (also Reichenbach) is the best all rounder transformer availiable today. To me jensen is hi fi-ish.. excels on the high end shelf. Sowter is iron neve like but not like st ives.....Lundahl are exceptional on low end instruments like the kick and bass. Thick sounding

But the cinemag excels on voice, bass, all of it.... When we talk about cinemag. I am thinking inward connections (some of the best made gear today), a designs, Bees neez, Aspen Pittman Grooove tubes (the vipre what a MONSTER pre), Universal Audio, etc....all wonderful pieces of gear.

The Tab BV8R from tab funkenwerk and used in Wunder, Telefunken USA U47s is nice. Seems very high output. But if I had to pick, the cinemag would be my choice based on my experience with both. But nothing would beat the original Neumann BV8 Transformer.

Who made that transformer anyway? Was it iron based or Nickel?

Cheers

Thanks for the thumbnail.

[anguswoodhead]

Just back from 2 weeks in India.
Good to read some of the discussion.
Very interesting.

[AMIEL]

Originally Posted by drBill

I listened on LSR25P's.

Not sure if it was the mics, my tired brain (14 hour days ever since I got back from a week in HI a monthy ago), or the converters in my mac mini (I listened in my office not the studio), but there really wasn't enough of a difference between them to even make an intelligent comment. I mean, it's really a gnat's hair splitting of a difference at best.

I fell the same way!

I am with my laptop with ATH M50 Headphones ..and the difference is just so, so tiny that is just ridiculous.... I never heard a Mic shoot out with such a small differences..

I have to listen again at the studio... but now, I think between those mics does not matter which one you choose, in a context of a mix... I think would not make a difference...

is not that your preamp is making all the mics to sound so, so similar?

[anguswoodhead]

Originally Posted by AMIEL

is not that your preamp is making all the mics to sound so, so similar?

I think it is important to use the same brand and model of mic pre when doing a mic shootout for consistency reasons.
In this case I used 4 x JLM Audio Dual 99v 500 series Mic Pre's.
Then all the pre's have the same sound so any differences we hear are in the mics not in the Pres.
If you know what I mean.

[tapehiss]

Originally Posted by DONNX

Ben made the right choice IMO. The cinemag (also Reichenbach) is the best all rounder transformer availiable today. To me jensen is hi fi-ish.. excels on the high end shelf. Sowter is iron neve like but not like st ives.....Lundahl are exceptional on low end instruments like the kick and bass. Thick sounding

But the cinemag excels on voice, bass, all of it....

im not trying to dispute with you, but just trying to understand....


you seem to be describing transformer characters based on brand, and while every brand has their own shelf model transformers....

i thought there characters were based on the metals and windings, so if the "hi fi-ish" jensen wound a transformer with iron, wouldn't it essentially sound like a sowter, or a carnhill.....
because i know avedis used a jensen on the ma5 and that pre pretty much nails the neve character........

[AMIEL]

Originally Posted by anguswoodhead

I think it is important to use the same brand and model of mic pre when doing a mic shootout for consistency reasons.
In this case I used 4 x JLM Audio Dual 99v 500 series Mic Pre's.
Then all the pre's have the same sound so any differences we hear are in the mics not in the Pres.
If you know what I mean.

To use the same Mic pre in a mic Shoot out it's Obvious...I am just surprised that the difference is insignificant ...will go yo the studio to check this out!

[anguswoodhead]

Originally Posted by AMIEL

To use the same Mic pre in a mic Shoot out it's Obvious...I am just surprised that the difference is insignificant ...will go yo the studio to check this out!

I would suggest that the reason for this is that 4 VERY good mics were used.

[AMIEL]

Originally Posted by anguswoodhead

I would suggest that the reason for this is that 4 VERY good mics were used.

I did not listen the shoot out at my studio yet...

I have no doubt all Mics are great

But.....

I think would be a much bigger difference if just using any of the mics you record them and then move the same mic a bit and compare ...a bit of distance and axis would make a bigger difference.


My point is that you can have 4 great different mics and what is consider great does not mean that all have to sound the same....I would get it if we are talking about clones..... but I never heard a u87 sounding so incredibly similar to a U47 ,,,,,

[anguswoodhead]

Originally Posted by AMIEL

I did not listen the shoot out at my studio yet...

I have no doubt all Mics are great

But.....

I think would be a much bigger difference if just using any of the mics you record them and then move the same mic a bit and compare ...a bit of distance and axis would make a bigger difference.

I suspect once you hear the clips in your studio you will hear greater differences.
I know we did on the day.

Originally Posted by AMIEL

My point is that you can have 4 great different mics and what is consider great does not mean that all have to sound the same....I would get it if we are talking about clones..... but I never heard a u87 sounding so incredibly similar to a U47 ,,,,,

This U87i was serviced and returned to 'original' specs by Ben Sneesby (Beesneez mics) and he is a master mic technician for sure.

[Piedpiper]

Originally Posted by AMIEL

... I never heard a u87 sounding so incredibly similar to a U47 ,,,,,

There was no "real" U47 there.

...and ditto to hearing more differences in the studio.

[AMIEL]

Originally Posted by Piedpiper

There was no "real" U47 there.

...and ditto to hearing more differences in the studio.

Yeah not real, but a Clone or based on a U47 ...actually is a good point..why I should buy an expensive u47 Clone of a U87 can sound as similar.....

anyways will listen to the files at the studio later...

[Piedpiper]

Originally Posted by anguswoodhead

I suspect once you hear the clips in your studio you will hear greater differences.
I know we did on the day.




This U87i was serviced and returned to 'original' specs by Ben Sneesby (Beesneez mics) and he is a master mic technician for sure.

...makes me wonder if he tweeked it beyond "original specs".

[anguswoodhead]

Originally Posted by Piedpiper

...makes me wonder if he tweeked it beyond "original specs".

I would think not.
Ben loves vintage Neuamann mics and takes great care when servicing them to get them back to 'exactly' the way they were when new using NOS parts etc.
I think he had to replace some generic caps that someone put in it with original spec Tants. (I'm no tech though - this would be a question for Ben)
I'm confident our 87i is performing 'as-new'.

[Piedpiper]

Thanks. Good to know they can sound that good.

[DONNX]

Originally Posted by tapehiss

im not trying to dispute with you, but just trying to understand....


you seem to be describing transformer characters based on brand, and while every brand has their own shelf model transformers....

i thought there characters were based on the metals and windings, so if the "hi fi-ish" jensen wound a transformer with iron, wouldn't it essentially sound like a sowter, or a carnhill.....
because i know avedis used a jensen on the ma5 and that pre pretty much nails the neve character........

I am just telling you based off my experience of every single piece of gear I have owned. And I inspect everything internally. Owned the Ma5. Despite that it is close to the Neve family. It doesn't sound exactly like a Neve 1073 or 1272. Due to a few things. #1. It has a carnhill input. A reproduction of the original St ives L31267 which are not marinairs. Not the same 100%. but close.
LO1166 output. Sounds totally different and its much bigger than the Ma5 custom Jensen that avedis used. Ma5 sounds like a Ma5. But I hear the Jensen in it based off having owned and used so many pieces of gear that uses Jensens.

I know what you are saying. But in my experience. Transformer brands have a particular sound. UTC, St ives, Cinemag, Sowter, Triads, Peerless, Haufe, Jensens, Stancor, Marinair, They all sound different to my ears and have a certain blood trademark to them. I am anal as it gets when it comes to tone and sound. To my guitars, amps, mics and down to the last cable I use...

[tapehiss]

thanks for that explanation, and i get what your saying...

at least with the transformers i have tried...

like the jensens in my summit gear are hifi, more on the cleaner side...


and from my experience, i have never disliked cinemags, they always seem to offer a nice characteristic.

also DONNX, i have seen the pics of your beesneez stuff (t1, james)... is your james the typical mic, or did you have it customized???? and does it sound similar to the t1???? do you use or like one of the two better?????????