Otari vs. Studer vs. MCI using Bounced ITB Mix

[Brad McGowan]

During discussion in the following thread, fellow Gearslutz member Alcohol, was called out to share some music he had recorded.

record straight to tape vs protools, then tape

He bravely obliged, so I contacted him about using one of his recordings to do a little experiment comparing the sound of his ITB mix to versions bounced to various tape decks I have at my studio.

I created, in no particular order, the following bounced mixes using an upsampled version of his original ITB mix.

1 - OtariMix_01 - Otari MX55 (1/4" ATR tape, +3/250, 15ips)
mix bounced to Otari MX55 1/4" 2-track at 15 ips using ATR Tape (+3/250, 3.7dB overbias at 10k); conversion was Mytek 8x192 at 96kHz

2 - MCIJH110Mix_01 - MCI JH-110A
mix bounced to MCI JH-110A 1" 8-track at 15ips using Quantegy GP9 tape (+0/355, 4dB overbias @ 10k); conversion was Mytek 8x192 at 96kHz

3 - StuderMix_01 - Studer A807 (1/4" ATR tape, +3/250, 15ips)
mix bounced to Studer A807 1/4" 2-track at 15 ips using ATR Tape (+3/250, 3.7dB overbias at 10k); conversion was Mytek 8x192 at 96kHz;

4 - StuderHotMix_01 - Studer Hot (1/4" ATR tape, +3/250, 15ips)
mix bounced to Studer A807 1/4" 2-track at 15 ips using ATR Tape (+3/250, 3.7dB overbias at 10k); conversion was Mytek 8x192 at 96kHz; hit tape +4dB hotter than other Studer track.

5 - Original
The original mix, from Pro Tools.

6 - HelloGoodbyeMIX2496k
Original mix upsampled to 96kHz using Voxengo R8Brain Pro at highest quality settings

The above files can be downloaded here:

The “Goodbye, Hello Experiment” « Red Red Rockit – The Blog!

Please note that you will need to perform level matching using the values listed next to files at the linked site. The results are posted there on a separate page as well. It would be fun to post some guesses here before you take a look at the results.

Enjoy!
Brad

[space2012]

your server has problems, cannot resume downloads, and disconects at 70% or around 12minutes.
A file its the only one i could download.

[top]The audio files

• Goodbye, Hello A
• Goodbye, Hello B
• Goodbye, Hello C (Gain adjustment: -4.32)
• Goodbye, Hello D (Gain adjustment: -3.93)
• Goodbye, Hello E (Gain adjustment: -3.86)
• Goodbye, Hello F (Gain adjustment: -3.70)

Again, the answers are here.

[adpz]

Thanks Space.

For me, I can't possibly tell which tape is which, but I will say that letter D sounds the best to me.

[mobius.media]

Could you do a Studer track hitting the tape 'gently' with little to no tape compression as well?

I'd really appreciate it.

[Brad McGowan]

Originally Posted by space2012

your server has problems, cannot resume downloads, and disconects at 70% or around 12minutes.
A file its the only one i could download.

Is this still giving you guys problems? If so I'll have it looked into.

Thanks for the alert!

Brad

[Brad McGowan]

Originally Posted by mobius.media

Could you do a Studer track hitting the tape 'gently' with little to no tape compression as well?

I'd really appreciate it.

The non-"hot" Studer track is hitting the tape gently IMO. It's averaging a level of 0VU for most of the song. Considering it's a high output tape and I've aligned the deck for +3/250 I would say I'm not overdoing it in that clip.

Brad

[mobius.media]

Originally Posted by Brad McGowan

The non-"hot" Studer track is hitting the tape gently IMO. It's averaging a level of 0VU for most of the song. Considering it's a high output tape and I've aligned the deck for +3/250 I would say I'm not overdoing it in that clip.

Brad

Duly noted. I think it's remarkable how "finished" the Studer makes the track sound. It catches excess snare hits in particular and really smooths the vocal. The Otari is more neutral, but thin. I think the MCI gives the cleanest - very hifi.

Personally I've always wanted a ATR102, but atrservice charges near 10k for those.

Do you have any thoughts on the 1/4" vs 1/2" 2-track debate? Also, I notice the Studer very much has its own 'tone' (bassy, not very 'open' like an atr). Do you find yourself adjusting your mix approach to compensate?

[DAH]

Originally Posted by Brad McGowan

During discussion in the following thread, fellow Gearslutz member Alcohol, was called out to share some music he had recorded.

record straight to tape vs protools, then tape

He bravely obliged, so I contacted him about using one of his recordings to do a little experiment comparing the sound of his ITB mix to versions bounced to various tape decks I have at my studio.

I created, in no particular order, the following bounced mixes using an upsampled version of his original ITB mix.

1 - OtariMix_01 - Otari MX55 (1/4" ATR tape, +3/250, 15ips)
mix bounced to Otari MX55 1/4" 2-track at 15 ips using ATR Tape (+3/250, 3.7dB overbias at 10k); conversion was Mytek 8x192 at 96kHz

2 - MCIJH110Mix_01 - MCI JH-110A
mix bounced to MCI JH-110A 1" 8-track at 15ips using Quantegy GP9 tape (+0/355, 4dB overbias @ 10k); conversion was Mytek 8x192 at 96kHz

3 - StuderMix_01 - Studer A807 (1/4" ATR tape, +3/250, 15ips)
mix bounced to Studer A807 1/4" 2-track at 15 ips using ATR Tape (+3/250, 3.7dB overbias at 10k); conversion was Mytek 8x192 at 96kHz;

4 - StuderHotMix_01 - Studer Hot (1/4" ATR tape, +3/250, 15ips)
mix bounced to Studer A807 1/4" 2-track at 15 ips using ATR Tape (+3/250, 3.7dB overbias at 10k); conversion was Mytek 8x192 at 96kHz; hit tape +4dB hotter than other Studer track.

5 - Original
The original mix, from Pro Tools.

6 - HelloGoodbyeMIX2496k
Original mix upsampled to 96kHz using Voxengo R8Brain Pro at highest quality settings

The above files can be downloaded here:

The “Goodbye, Hello Experiment” « Red Red Rockit – The Blog!

Please note that you will need to perform level matching using the values listed next to files at the linked site. The results are posted there on a separate page as well. It would be fun to post some guesses here before you take a look at the results.

Enjoy!
Brad

No DOWNLOAD, the server SUCKS (at least for non US IPs)!!
Could you repost them at some other site?

[Brad McGowan]

I'm sorry about the inconvenience guys. I'll see what I can do about getting the files re-hosted somewhere else, if not fixed. Stand by...

Brad

[Brad McGowan]

Originally Posted by mobius.media

Duly noted. I think it's remarkable how "finished" the Studer makes the track sound. It catches excess snare hits in particular and really smooths the vocal. The Otari is more neutral, but thin. I think the MCI gives the cleanest - very hifi.

Personally I've always wanted a ATR102, but atrservice charges near 10k for those.

Do you have any thoughts on the 1/4" vs 1/2" 2-track debate? Also, I notice the Studer very much has its own 'tone' (bassy, not very 'open' like an atr). Do you find yourself adjusting your mix approach to compensate?

It's interesting you hear it that way. To my ears the MCI really colors the mix the most with its transformers giving a serious punch to the drums especially. But simultaneously it is kind of hi-fi in the way the high end is very detailed and extended. I think that's really a function of the mods I did to the audio cards. Sometime this summer I plan to mod the Studer as well to make it super hi-fi and clean. The circuit boards are very well layed out and all the op amps are socketed so it should be quite easy.

Since I've never had the good fortune of using 1/2" 2-track I really can't weigh in on the pros and cons of 1/2" vs. 1/4".

I haven't really been adjusting anything when I listen to the playback from the Studer. It doesn't necessarily sound the same as what's coming off the console, but it definitely sounds very good so I just go with it. How can argue with something that makes your ears happy.

Brad

[Brad McGowan]

Sorry for the inconvenience with the download links. I've been told they have been fixed and should work now. Give it a try.

Brad

[mobius.media]

Originally Posted by Brad McGowan

It's interesting you hear it that way. To my ears the MCI really colors the mix the most with its transformers giving a serious punch to the drums especially. But simultaneously it is kind of hi-fi in the way the high end is very detailed and extended. I think that's really a function of the mods I did to the audio cards. Sometime this summer I plan to mod the Studer as well to make it super hi-fi and clean. The circuit boards are very well layed out and all the op amps are socketed so it should be quite easy.

Brad

In that case, perhaps a better term would be to say the MCI is 'clearest'. I'm sure the Studer upgrades you have planned will level the fidelity playing field between them.

On another note, Brad, I am very curious about analyzing the character of the noise floor associated with integrating similar decks into a digital environment, particularly when used on repro loopback.

Would you be so generous as to record 10-20 seconds of silence coming out of your Mytek, hitting the tape (at typical settings), and then coming back directly into the Mytek (at 24/96)?

I know it may be a strange request, but it would really be immensely helpful. A track each from the Studer and the MCI would be most appreciated, though one of the Otari wouldn't hurt if you're so inclined. A direct loopback of the Myteks would be great as well for a control.

I will post back any results I can produce.

Thanks.

[Brad McGowan]

What do you have in mind as far as the noise goes? I know that even monitoring signal through the MCI in input mode (no tape) that there is an increased noise level. So you're going to be getting a combination of both tape noise and electronics noise, obviously.

I may be able to generate those files for you this weekend.

Speaking of noise. I've realized that I really like hearing that tape hiss during the "silence" between notes. When I hear digital black in comparison, it sounds weird. There was actually a part in my band's record where during a break sounds faded into silence. It sounded so odd to me that I decided to paste in some background noise from our organ. Ahh...much better.

Brad

[mobius.media]

Originally Posted by Brad McGowan

What do you have in mind as far as the noise goes? I know that even monitoring signal through the MCI in input mode (no tape) that there is an increased noise level. So you're going to be getting a combination of both tape noise and electronics noise, obviously.

I may be able to generate those files for you this weekend.

If I got one, I'd be using the deck as a compression/fattening effect on tracks I think need it most (eg. bass, kick, snare, vox) in direct repro loopback during mixing.

Mostly I'm interested in quantifying exactly how much the noise floor would be elevated in that loopback, as well as where the added noise will be distributed across the frequency spectrum, so I can know if it will likely cause me problems in an otherwise digital mix.

The only specs I can find on the subject are decades old, incomplete, and don't really reflect modern improvements in components and tape formulations.

So again, any help is appreciated. Thanks a bunch.

[analogpajamas]

Brad,
Not to derail your thread, but as a 110A owner, I'm curious as to the 'mods' you did to your cards. Mind explaining? Feel free to PM me, as to not further clog the thread. Thanks!

[Quint]

Originally Posted by Brad McGowan

What do you have in mind as far as the noise goes? I know that even monitoring signal through the MCI in input mode (no tape) that there is an increased noise level. So you're going to be getting a combination of both tape noise and electronics noise, obviously.

I may be able to generate those files for you this weekend.

Speaking of noise. I've realized that I really like hearing that tape hiss during the "silence" between notes. When I hear digital black in comparison, it sounds weird. There was actually a part in my band's record where during a break sounds faded into silence. It sounded so odd to me that I decided to paste in some background noise from our organ. Ahh...much better.

Brad

Ha, that's funny. I've done the exact same thing with my Hammond M3. I don't like digital black either.

[AlphaDingo]

Brad,
Not to derail your thread, but as a 110A owner, I'm curious as to the 'mods' you did to your cards. Mind explaining? Feel free to PM me, as to not further clog the thread. Thanks!

As a 110C owner, I would be interested as well.

[Brad McGowan]

Originally Posted by analogpajamas

Brad,
Not to derail your thread, but as a 110A owner, I'm curious as to the 'mods' you did to your cards. Mind explaining? Feel free to PM me, as to not further clog the thread. Thanks!

If you want, I can send you more details in a PM, but just in case there are other JH110 owners reading this here's the basics of the mods done to all repro and record cards:

- replace all electrolytics with Nichicon HE, same values
- replace all equalization film caps with Wima FKP-2, same values
- replace all 2003(5534) can op amps with TLE2071A DIP op amps using sockets and Brown Dog adapters (there is one exception)

TO-99 to 8-pin DIP Adapter (p/n 020601B)

- exception: replace the op amp that drives the output transformer with an OPA604 (or something that has good current drive and can run at +/-18V)...I forget which card this op amp is on so consult the schematics
- replace the NE5534 input op amp on the audio motherboard with TLE2071A
- replace the two electrolytics in series that act as a bi-poplar coupling cap on the audio motherboard by the input op amp with a Nichicon Muse bi-polar or Black Gate if you are a big spender.
- most importantly, replace all VU lamps with blue LEDs!!!

By the way, I have an 18V "A" revision with repro head transformer on the repro card, and an output transformer on the audio motherboard. If you have the earlier 24V version then you'll likely have to do some different things and find op amps that an run at +/-24V. The OPA604 might be a good canditate. The "B" and "C" versions don't have the discrete circuitry and tranformers that the "A" does. But the upgrades are still applicable. It's basic electrolytic, film cap, and op amp upgrades. Depending on op amps selected you may need to increase PSU decoupling or add bypass caps, or limit bandwidth to prevent oscillation. The TLE2071A's aren't too high bandwidth and high speed so seem to fare well in the stock circuit. Just don't use them where you need current drive.

I think I may have some before and after clips I printed using a Smashing Pumpkins track. I'll have to look.

Brad

[Elvis Gotta Gun]

Any chance of 320kbps MP3 files?

[AlphaDingo]

Now that is TOTALLY badass. I LOVE the LEDs!!

[once a roadie]

Brad -

What is a good 1/4 deck to get to mess around with for printing mixes onto (bang for buck / reliable)?

I'm new to this but it is very interesting!

Thanks!

[Brad McGowan]

Originally Posted by Elvis Gotta Gun

Any chance of 320kbps MP3 files?

Probably not. I think some of the subtleties of the material might be lost by using MP3's and to be honest I just don't have the time right now. Sorry about that.

Brad

[Brad McGowan]

Originally Posted by grockvt

Brad -

What is a good 1/4 deck to get to mess around with for printing mixes onto (bang for buck / reliable)?

I'm new to this but it is very interesting!

Thanks!

I think the Otari stuff is a good bargain and runs pretty reliably. The transports are nice. However, the sound is generally on the clean/boring side of thigns. It's not the kind of deck that will add tons of magic to the sound like an old Ampex or MCI that has transformers. If you are the DIY type then it is possible to mod the Otari's to sound better. Just know that the PCB's are kind of flimsy and don't like being worked on. I've lifted a number of traces on my MX5050.

If you want to hotrod the playback side only of an MX5050 here's a good resource:

the Tape Project

So the MX55 seems to still go for cheap these. The MX5050 prices are being driven up by audiophiles participating in the tape project. So Ebay may not be the best way to get an MX5050 right now. You could also look at some of the Revox decks (prosumer Studer), or older Studers like the B67. The key thing is you want a deck with good head life. Or better yet, one that has head reports from JRF Magnetics.

Brad

[once a roadie]

wow - thanks for the advice...

I've been using a plug in called ferox ALOT these days and still wonder about using actual tape...I'll keep on the lookout for used decks!

PS - I took the goodbye-hello (ITB bounce file) and ran it through ferox's "High quality tape" preset...

I hope that is Ok - I posted here...

http://www.mediafire.com/file/dtzzwj..._qual_tape.wav

that tape project website is intense!

[Brad McGowan]

Cool! I'll have to download your track and compare it side by side with the others.

Do you guys notice how the MCI deck really brings out the smack of the kick compared to the others?

Brad

[illacov]

I like the Studer results. But oddly I really liked Ferox as well lol.

Then again I've had Ferox for quite some time now and used to abuse that plugin quite frequently on drum buss.

I'm not suprised it did a decent job (on first listen) on the overall mix.

It would be (at first glance) a great and cheap (FREE) tool to bring up some level along with some nice saturation.

Probably a better substitute for a shitty 1/4" deck than a shitty 1/4" deck but hush my mouth and call me Susan.

I think short of hearing the mastered music (which I haven't yet) the effects of tape, real and simulated were beneficial to this mix!

Peace
Illumination

[once a roadie]

Finally found a 1/4 machine to play with...Teac x1000R. Actually has a great vibe - better than the plugins I was using!!!