100% Biased/Subjective/Personal points of view "verry annoing for some."

[space2012]

WARNING: 100% Biased/Subjective/Personal points of view "verry annoing for some."
make yours....

it seems that so far theres not an universal "best converter".
Some music styles, need "an specific sound" to sound pleasant and atractive.
classic sound/new sound, open/close, hard knee/soft knee, dark/brighter, wider/narrow, plastic/analog, compressed/dynamic, etc...
like:
some music styles need the MCI JH416 sound,
some other music styles need Neve,
some others need API,
some need QuadEight Pacifica Sound,
some others need john hardy m-1,
some others need neumann u47,
some need Tube sounds,
some dont.

like food, some flavours mix, some dont.
Milk and Chocolate mix for most, Cookies & Cream, etc..
for me: Eggs and raw hot Tomatoes dont mix.
But Eggs and ketchup like a charm.
...
to me... same happens with converters, A/D & D/A.
and thats seems to be directly related to chip model&brand, becouse ive heard same chips in diferent soundcards/converters, with diferent or same wordclocks, and always the results are similar for an specific music style.

yes, some wordclocks make a louder, more clear, transparent, detailed sound, miniminizes the harmonic cancelations, everything sounds better, and...
yes, analog circuit makes a muddier, or transparent, brighter or darker sound., louder or softer output,
but... Chips do affect something else, something...
reading wiki about how converters work, have noticed that they all use diferent techniques to decode the same bits, diferent kinds of filters to remove aliasing, etc..
those diferences to decode the bits, makes a verry diferent perception of sound, that affects directly some music styles.

in this thread i would like to read/know 100% Biased/Subjective/Personal points of view of others,
about how an "specific sound" affects diferent music styles.
a converter is more or less accurate, sometimes that beneffits or worsens some music styles...
thats why this thread.

Subjective Points of View/Personal Bias are verry hard to swallow, becouse involves genetics, ego, and stuff, ill try to do my best to learn something.

i go first with an example:::

some converters info:
http://forum.rightmark.org/topic.cgi?id=4:1015
All the DACs money can buy, pt. 2 - Head-Fi: Covering Headphones, Earphones and Portable Audio
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/4308130-post15.html
thers also another similar forum with hundreds of specs in a japanese website.
...
Objective: "looking the pci card..."
M-Audio Audiophile 192 has A/D:AKM AK5385A; D/A: AKM AK4358
same A/D chip as RME hdsp9632 and FireFace800,
same D/A chip as mackie.com 400f, ESI Juli@, maybe others...
Subjective:
AKM AK4358 DAC chip sounds "good" / benefits some electronic music.
has a "plastic" "not accurate" sound that benefits the electronic music.
but some songs sounds too hard knee.
some 0dB normalized samples sound distorted, clipped.
i think in the case of the M-Audio AP192, the clock signal its overloading the DAC clock input.
when i used an external clock s/pdif, that brickwall hard knee sound softened a bit.
...
have found that all AKM D/A chips ive heard reproduce digital clipping verry easy.
totally oposite to latest generation Cirrus Logic D/A chips.
also...
happens that becouse Cirrus Logic chip has a strong spline rounding between the samples "inter-sample", latest generation Cirrus Logic chips sound soft knee, but more analog.
that soft knee "that more analog sound" is not beneficial for some music styles, i guess it could be becouse the way files/cds were recorded.
some AD and some DA dont mix.

but...some AKM chips have trouble to reproduce verry loud signals near 0dB,
SSL X-ISM Solid State Logic | Music
SSL say its becouse some chips dont have enough headroom inside to reproduce the intersample-peaks, but seems to me that AKM D/A chips dont have spline rounding, or at least not as strong as the latest Cirrus Logic chips, i think the more plastic sound the Dac chip has, it seems to be more accurate reproducing bits.

thats why i think the Cirrus Logic latest generation D/A chips are not accurate, they dont reproduce the bits exactly, they strongly round/soft the edges between samples with splines, making a more "analog sound".

the AKM AK5385A A/D chip sounds too much upfront, could be the analog circuit, but dont think so, sounds not accurate A/D in a good way for some music styles, benefits some Electronic/Rap music instruments and some other music styles that need a verry upfront sound,
but some acoustic music styles sounds too much upfront, weird upfront strange mid and mid highs.

Objective:
Roland MMP-2 A/D/A:AKM AK4528VF
same A/D/A chip as Echo Mia, Edirol UA1000
op-amps OP275, same as Lynx Two A, B or C
Subjective:
AKM AK4528VF DAC side Sounds compact, not open like RME hdsp9632 dac, totally oposite in fact.
that compact sound DAC benefits, "sounds good" with all 1979 Disco music, funk, Italo Disco, some Electronic music.
has the op275 op-amp, that sounds warm, transparent mid range, but... a bit dark "analog" highs, same op-amp as Lynx L22/Two and maybe others.

opposite happens with RME hdsp9632
Objective:
RME HDSP 9632: A/D:AKM AK5385A; D/A: Analog Devices AD1852 and 4580 op amps.
same D/A chip as APOGEE Rosetta 200, RME ADI-8 DS, maybe others..
apogee ad8000 optional D/A card has AD1851.
Subjective:
the Analog Devices AD1852 chip, sounds Open, too much! for my taste.
with a good wordclock some electronic music benefits, sounds much more detailed highs, that chip has verry detailed highs, but... all 1979 Disco Music, and Italo Disco midrange worsens totally. verry strange & unpleasant midrange for all funk, disco music ive listened,
specially: Sylvester feat. Patric Cowley - Do you wanna funk, love that song, but sounds so annoing with the AD1815 chip.

Objective: AKM A/D:AKM AK5394A, found in Lynx L22/Two, Emu1820m/1616m, Digidesign 192io, Esi EX8000, Focusrite Liquid Channel, Universal Audio 2192, maybe others...
Subjective:
what i think of AK5385A vs. AK5394A A/D?
the highs sound diferent.
the highs sound diferent becouse i was testing with diferent wordclocks.
with same wordclocks the diference is less, but still the AK5394a sounds more accurate / more analog to me.
in the analog circuit design, theres only one variable left.

Objective:
recently i e-mailed to apogee support asking to know what are the converter chips inside DA-16x,
they told me is AD1955, and lots/diferent op-amps.
searching for similar converters also: Lavry Black DA10, and Esoteric D-03 converters, yulong audio dah1, have same AD1955 chip, maybe others.
i know wordclock and analog circuit design affects like crazy, but chip internal design affects in a verry subjective way.
thats what im trying to/want to measure.

listening Tascam DA-30mk2 clocked with Digi 96io, vs. Digi 96io D/A.
listening Madonna - hard candy cd, extracted to .aiff, with genelec 1029a
the diference is strange.
sounds like old AKM vs. latest CirrusLogic.
Digi96io sounds wider, detailed, soft knee, good & bad for some music styles.
coudnt make up my mind about those with just 1 CD "music style" to listen.

Conclution for D/A:
mmp-2 good for disco, funk, em.
hdsp9632 bad for disco, funk, good for electronic music
m-audio ap192, good for electronic music, but...
emu1820m muddy & too soft knee sound "strange" for electronic music.
...your personal bias about the converters you had, and have, or have tested, with the music you like or hate?

[Newcleardaze]

meh

[space2012]

Originally Posted by Newcleardaze

meh

i want to read something like this:
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/708185-post10.html
GearHunter
Lives for gear



Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Analog Planet
Posts: 1,412


Quote:
Of course, I'd love to hear your test results Drew --
OK, here goes...(got a full cup of hot coffee here)...

The purpose: Transferring an analog mix form 1/4" 30 ips reel to DAW.

The signal path:
I patched directly from the XLR outs on the back of my Otari MTR-10 in to the Weiss ADC2 line-ins. I connected the SPDIF out from the Weiss in to an RME Hammerfall HDSP card on my G4. I actually externally clocked the Weiss to my Aardvark Aardsync 2 (at 44.1), because all my devices, including the Hamerfall card are clocked to it, so, I fugured rather than try to revamp the whole system, I'd just connect the Weiss to it and be done with it. Setting the ADC2 to external sync was super easy; right on a front-panel button. I set sync-source to BNC and boom, the Weiss changed from 48 to 44.1 instantly.

I was recording in to Nuendo at 44.1 24-bit WAV, and monitoring back through the RME/Nuendo 8 I/0 patched right to the 2-track in of my Soundcraft, to a McIntosh 2120 and apir of Tannoy SRM10B.

The Sound:
I began playing the tape; a mix I am very familiar with. I had previously tranferred the tape-mix back in to Nuendo using the RME, so I knew what that sounded like. In fact, I was under the impression that the mix was a bit over-compressed.

Now, usually the sound difference between converters is subtle. Well, damn, with the Weiss ADC, I was immediately noticing more detail, clarity, forwardness and depth. I actually heard that I needed to clean the heads on the MTR-10 (which I had forgotten to do). Sure enough, they were filthy.

After cleaning the heads, I hit play, and the sound coming out of my Tannoys was astonishing. I was hearing this mix as never before. It was bigger, wider, and the transient peaks, like the snare-pop and the kick-thud were more evident. The vocal seemed to cut through more. The guitars were gutsier, too. It sounded way more open, and NOT overcompressed after all.

I was hitting the Weiss pretty hard, and the mix was a bit hotter on the left than the right, so I un-ganged the input level-control on the ADC and ended up with left on minus 17 and the right on minus 16. I was hitting the red-light only on the occasional floor-tom hit. Even though it wasn't louder, it SOUNDED louder than ever before. It seemed to capture more nuance and even more analog tapey-ness than I'd expected. I'd say the Weiss ADC2 is the best sounding A to D unit I've ever heard.

So I recorded it in to Nuendo, just fine. And, as pertains directly to this thread, I then played the track through several D to A units. I was actually surprised at how very different they sounded. Again, they were all clocked to the Aardsync II.

The D to A shootout:
1) My RME Nuendo sounded fine...pretty basic and was the one I had been listening to in real time when I noticed how great the ADC2 was. I compare it favorably to Apogee gear.

2) My Panasonic Ramsa WZDA96...wow! Louder, way louder, but when I brought the volume down I was hearing a flatter frequency response, better low lows and more dynamics. Those floor-tom hits were bigger and I could hear the room ambience around them.

3) The Crane Song HEDD, well, what can I say? I took the HEDD process off, and used it soley as a D to A. It was not quite as big as the Ramsa, and that might be just because the Ramsa was so loud, but it made the RME sound small. It was the most musical of the three and just had a little something special to it, even with the harmonic sounds disengaged. So, my ideal chain for my next tape transfer will be the Weiss ADC2 on the front and the HEDD on the back. There will be a happy little Nuendo sandwich in-between!

Bottom line, the Weiss ADC2 is immaculate, and I heard the difference with all my D to As.

NOW I'm gonna borrow the Weiss DAC1. I dunno If I'll be able to handle all that Weiss goodness at once! Better have a clean pair of trousers standing by!
__________________
"It is the space between the notes that makes the music."
Drew Townson
AKA Gearhunter
AnalogPlanet.com

[DONNX]

Originally Posted by Newcleardaze

meh

My god this is funny..hahahhahaha

[Skywalker]

Eggs and ketchup!?

[miscend]

This is very interesting. Could you list the AD chips for the Apogee Duet?

[warhead]

Originally Posted by Skywalker

Eggs and ketchup!?

Hey, I actually like scrambled eggs and ketchup...might have to go have some now!

War

[_Ludovico]

In the end, I guess one should just buy something he's confident about and learn to work with it.