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Lynx Aurora 16 vs Behringer ADA8000
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#181
26th October 2008
Old 26th October 2008
  #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somsto75 View Post
i could honestly say to the best of my knowledge of myself, I would possibly be able to hear the differences between those listed above. BUt like the 3 hi end converters, its an area of absurdity to me. but again maybe its because my ear drums are turnign into stone after 30 years of being alive! Or it has to do with me being so moronic. Which btw, i really am an idiot trust me on that. The only reason I teeter on the fence bout this is because there hasn't been a variety of people coming in hear and being like "oh yea they're totally different". Then I start thinking well if it takes this much focus and experience and practice what do these small differences really matter then at the end. IN other words if u have to go thru such a controlled and detailed listening experience to pick out subtlies it seems like that aspect of it should tell u something, putting aside the results of the test altogether.
sorry, i'm still the same person, but some listening pointers anyway:

mytek - to me this is just a really open natural sound. nothing to 'key in' on. that's why it's my all-purpose fave. pretty neutral.

lavry - listen to the tone of her voice - in particular her sibilance, which it brings out a bit. and for the lyrics 'when i move.. for a moment' - during those pushed notes there's definitely a complimentary 'smear/saturation' going on there that neither of the other two converters here provide. the overall tone is very different from either other one as well. eg. piano. almost subdued more mellow highs.

prism - listen to the highs, the air (if you have tinnitus, maybe nothing will register). again listen to her voice. to me it's all very shrill. strident as nomad put it, almost harsh. eg. 'when i move... you unclutch, .. with a ..' the high parts are just unpleasant - a bit cringe-worthy. very glassy. if you were recording rock with these that might be a mistake imo, at least from this sample. very real, but almost uncomfortable/unflattering.

at least, that's what i hear. it's definitely subtle, no doubt. and no offense to prism owners - they seem very accurate and hi res. and of course the pres, mics, eq's, comps were all no doubt set up to make the mytek sound best, so it's biased of course.

using words to describe sound is hard. everyone will use different ones. that's the best i can do.


also somewhat OT again, but anyone curious what a good vs stellar clock sound like:
Lynx Aurora clocked with INT AND EXT with Ishochrone.
#182
26th October 2008
Old 26th October 2008
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovisceral View Post
sorry, i'm still the same person, but some listening pointers anyway:

mytek - to me this is just a really open natural sound. nothing to 'key in' on. that's why it's my all-purpose fave. pretty neutral.

lavry - listen to the tone of her voice - in particular her sibilance, which it brings out a bit. and for the lyrics 'when i move.. for a moment' - during those pushed notes there's definitely a complimentary 'smear/saturation' going on there that neither of the other two converters here provide. the overall tone is very different from either other one as well. eg. piano. almost subdued more mellow highs.

prism - listen to the highs, the air (if you have tinnitus, maybe nothing will register). again listen to her voice. to me it's all very shrill. strident as nomad put it, almost harsh. eg. 'when i move... you unclutch, .. with a ..' the high parts are just unpleasant - a bit cringe-worthy. very glassy. if you were recording rock with these that might be a mistake imo, at least from this sample. very real, but almost uncomfortable/unflattering.

at least, that's what i hear. it's definitely subtle, no doubt. and no offense to prism owners - they seem very accurate and hi res. and of course the pres, mics, eq's, comps were all no doubt set up to make the mytek sound best, so it's biased of course.

using words to describe sound is hard. everyone will use different ones. that's the best i can do.


also somewhat OT again, but anyone curious what a good vs stellar clock sound like:
Lynx Aurora clocked with INT AND EXT with Ishochrone.
okay I tried the Sparrow test and the Aurora. Focused on the "Tape" tracks. When I listen to the singing voice I can hear some clamping down of the mid range of the aurora. I'm not saying thats bad or a good thing. But the inconsistency is throwing me off. Because the acoustic guitar exhibits the same mid range clamp but on the Sparrow. As if the tracks were switched by accident or something! I can swear that that is happening.
#183
26th October 2008
Old 26th October 2008
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One of my secrets for hearing the differences between things is singing through them or playing something through them. You play around until you find something different and you can stay on it ABing it until you see that one box does one thing with it and the other does another. On material that was recorded without that feedback such moments by be very transient and hard to notice. But when you learn what all the "keys" do on a specific piece you can really take advantage of it.

It's exactly like a guitar amp, milking a given amp for a given tone.
#184
26th October 2008
Old 26th October 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peeder View Post
One of my secrets for hearing the differences between things is singing through them or playing something through them. You play around until you find something different and you can stay on it ABing it until you see that one box does one thing with it and the other does another. On material that was recorded without that feedback such moments by be very transient and hard to notice. But when you learn what all the "keys" do on a specific piece you can really take advantage of it.

It's exactly like a guitar amp, milking a given amp for a given tone.
I'm not quite sure what you mean there. Singing through them or playing something through them?


And im still confused with the sparrow aurora test. Why is that happening?
#185
26th October 2008
Old 26th October 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somsto75 View Post
I'm not quite sure what you mean there. Singing through them or playing something through them?
And I'm trying to think what else that could mean...

Quote:
And im still confused with the sparrow aurora test. Why is that happening?
There are only a handful of people on GS that can do a shootout anywhere near fairly and accurately IMO. Mr. nomad is one. I'd argue I'm one too. Lynn Fuston, Ethan Winer, a few others. You will note that they usually post enough information to fully reproduce the results, and pay attention to all sorts of mundane details of the protocol...often employing test tones for calibration, etc.

There are many variables to be aware of that most engineers are blissfully ignorant of. Furthermore, in one of the linked tests the guy doing the test cops to the fact he's trying to sell the clock he's arguing is better than internal. Therefore, I'd exercise quite a bit of caution in interpreting any results from J. Random Engineer.
#186
26th October 2008
Old 26th October 2008
  #186
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Check out my distorted guitar pre/converter test.
Very fair since it is a reamped guitar track recorded through an amp using the same mic for each recording.
The Behringer ADA8000 is in there along with API A2D, ISA220 and ISA828.
Reading this thread made me want to check the Behringer against my own stuff.
distorted guitar pre/converter shootout

Michael
#187
26th October 2008
Old 26th October 2008
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an idiot's 2 cents

Listened to all.

I find aurora's mid range sweeter bringing it altogether, present but not annoying.
#188
26th October 2008
Old 26th October 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somsto75 View Post
Listened to all.

I find aurora's mid range sweeter bringing it altogether, present but not annoying.
i agree. the aurora's got a good sound and is nice to listen to. the main places it seems to fall apart is it can smear up the highs (if you listen to the sparrow test it's actually beneficial though sometimes. eg. on the juno), and it lacks low end thump (eg. kicks) and fast transient detail. so it depends on what your aural priorities are. the ada8000 doesn't have these problems, but it does have higher noise and cheap components that really sap its tone. sounds kinda cold.

overall, for general use, i wouldn't be surprised if a m-audio profire 2626 on a decent external clock fully outdoes both, and at a quite affordable price. i'm curious to try one out.

i also wonder if swapping some caps might warm the ada8000 up a bit. i bet that's what's hurting the mids. can't find any pictures of its guts online.

wonder what oamps BLA swaps too
Anyone know what the BlackLion Mod for the ADA8000 is?
#189
26th October 2008
Old 26th October 2008
  #189
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This is what I hate with the audio world... Should you trust all the professionals out there or your ears? I prefer A, but I don't want to mistrust the importance of good equipment, which according to a lot of people is a linear equation to cost...

I hate when you ppl does this to me, I really do...

is the preamps in the unit just as good as the converters? And is the "Line in" just an attenuation throught the preamps or real Lines, right into the A/D?
#190
26th October 2008
Old 26th October 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osse_87 View Post
is the preamps in the unit just as good as the converters? And is the "Line in" just an attenuation throught the preamps or real Lines, right into the A/D?
line in runs through the pres but nomad says they don't have much effect when turned down.

pres are reportedly sterile and pretty worthless. everyone who praises the ada8000 says to ignore them and just use line in.

and again, a sm57 isn't expensive. but every pro studio has some.

always trust your ears, naturally - music is a personal thing.
#191
26th October 2008
Old 26th October 2008
  #191
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I am so confused , i was a bout to order an aurora 16 untill nomad posted the wav files, i am having a hard time spending $3000 now

my thoughts: it is really important to listen and judge by ear to make decisions on gear like preamps, microphones, compressors..etc but when it comes to convertors i think that we are not supposed to like this or that and make decisions on lestinning alone, the more neutral and transperant the convertor the better, it should not add or subtract anything to the spectrum, i don't believe that i can hear 0.1 db difference lets say boosted at some frequency, the way to know is to measure, and here is what i ve experienced when listenning to the samples; i liked A and couldn't find that much of a difference when compared it to B except that A had some boost on the highs which felt pleasing to my ears at first but after a while i felt more comfortable lestinning to B, i did a nulling test and found that B the Aurora nulled much better meaning that it was closer to the original than A Behringer, if i had both the aurora and behr i think i will test both units with a sweep sine and compare the graphs, that would show something i didn't hear i believe
#192
26th October 2008
Old 26th October 2008
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Digital nulling results are going to be heavily affected by sampling error (especially here at 44.1) and I completely ignore nulling tests as a consequence.
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#193
26th October 2008
Old 26th October 2008
  #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucey View Post

In both cases, you can work with it ... add distortion or change the eq. So while neither one is stellar, both are equally useful .... except I could never stoop to buying B-ringer. Its like saying to the world "I have no ethics." I say that knowing it pisses some of you off, and I'm sorry to seem insulting, but that's really what it is. A studio is not just musical potential, it's actual karmic energy, and B-ringer stuff carries that karma into your life. "I'm a cheap thief, record with me and make more stuff with no originality for less."
Well... I only half agree with you.

I think yours is a somewhat privileged position. Not everyone can afford an Aurora/Apogee/Lavry/Mytek, etc.... To say Behringer gear somehow inherently takes on bad karma thus non-original music is kind of a leap. Behringer's process of taking popular circuit designs, changing them enough not to get sued and repackaging them under their own brand goes on in ALL industries. You ever buy a polo shirt that wasn't a polo? Your girl ever buy a fancy Prada handbag that wasn't a Prada? Now I'm not saying that because it happens elsewhere it makes it OK... I'm just saying that the morality isn't quite as black and white as you're making it here IMO.

On some level I'm glad Behringer gear is out there for kids who are desperate to create music but have no money... who grow up poor, but have a talent they want to capture...

As for me...I'll continue to buy quality when I can afford it.
#194
26th October 2008
Old 26th October 2008
  #194
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What about all the Neve cloners out there? Am I carrying bad karma into my studio by buying a Brent Averill (who clones tons of things)?
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#195
26th October 2008
Old 26th October 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiop View Post
norman_nomad,

I looped the Beck file, however being very close to 0dBFS and the my Aurora being 0.2dB hotter on the output resulted in several clipping in the 2:nd part of the file. Want me to post it or do a new take with normalized "original file"?


/Peter
I think your file should match mine in level as best you can...

I calibrated with 1k test tone at -20db. The inputs showed -19.98 for L and -19.99 for R... so matched within 0.01db. If you can find a similar pair of channels that would probably bet the best match... there may be a few momentary clips...

You could always take your file, do a flip phase and pull the volume to the closest null of my file, then print it.

For that Beck file, I only need the first 5 seconds to really make a decision anyways.
#196
27th October 2008
Old 27th October 2008
  #196
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I'm about to rip my hair out. I'm inconsistent from one test to the other. The Behringer test I pick the aurora out, its the sound I prefer and i can spot it now.

the sparrow test, I am not understanding why the characteristics are flipped. On that test im not hearing the 'softend" highs, im hearing the opposite. I'm just asking, are we sure the files are labeled right??
#197
27th October 2008
Old 27th October 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somsto75 View Post
I'm about to rip my hair out. I'm inconsistent from one test to the other. The Behringer test I pick the aurora out, its the sound I prefer and i can spot it now.

the sparrow test, I am not understanding why the characteristics are flipped. On that test im not hearing the 'softend" highs, im hearing the opposite. I'm just asking, are we sure the files are labeled right??
i think i know what you mean. here's what you might be hearing:

ADA8000 - very hyped and exciting harmonically distorted highs
Aurora - moderately extended somewhat smeared highs
Sparrow - neutral highs, mostly neutral overall

so the aurora highs might sound subdued compared to the ada8000, yet hyped compared to the sparrow. ie. normally the aurora's highs are considered exaggerated; just not so much next to the hyped ada8000.

one thing you can listen for that's consistent between both tests is in both cases the aurora has less punch in its drums, particularly the kick. i think this is where the smear i keep hearing comes from - it seems by nature a 'slow' converter.

and try to relax a bit, it's just music.
#198
27th October 2008
Old 27th October 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovisceral View Post
i think i know what you mean. here's what you might be hearing:

ADA8000 - very hyped and exciting harmonically distorted highs
Aurora - moderately extended somewhat smeared highs
Sparrow - neutral highs, mostly neutral overall

so the aurora highs might sound subdued compared to the ada8000, yet hyped compared to the sparrow. ie. normally the aurora's highs are considered exaggerated; just not so much next to the hyped ada8000.

one thing you can listen for that's consistent between both tests is in both cases the aurora has less punch in its drums, particularly the kick. i think this is where the smear i keep hearing comes from - it seems by nature a 'slow' converter.

and try to relax a bit, it's just music.
well I can't relax really, I don't have any talents and I thought audio could be 'my thing'. So I'm gona get hyper about it, sorry.

What you said though makes sense and actually increased my desire for aurora. Because it seems to sit some where inbetween everything which overall makes it transparent I guess is the word. But it does just the right thing at the right time it seems. With the hard metal sounds it's seems to sweeten the mid range that could otherwise annoy IMO. And if you think about it, the Sparrow then in metal stuff might not give us the warmth like the Aurora if you then compare them naturally going on what you told me as to why I was hearing them like that. It makes sense. That just saved me a temper tantrum. The transient softness, which is slight, but there bugs me a bit cause actually for me it's turning out that Aurora is the one to get.

The ada8000, after listening through the whole song actually gets grating; metallic. It sort of reminds me that I'm listening to a lower grade device like my maudio stuff. Although IMO the maudio stuff sounds better.
#199
27th October 2008
Old 27th October 2008
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Originally Posted by somsto75 View Post
The ada8000, after listening through the whole song actually gets grating; metallic. It sort of reminds me that I'm listening to a lower grade device like my maudio stuff. Although IMO the maudio stuff sounds better.
definitely. metalic is a good word for it. and what you're hearing there is the cheapest chinese components/manufacturing money can buy. which is why i was mentioning swapping some parts (capacitors) out for higher quality ones like the aurora uses to fix that.

maudio stuff doesn't tend to have the same issues with losing low end or thump like the aurora. if you could get both working together they'd probably sound like a strong match.

also don't forget this shootout with m-audio as well
Rosetta 200 Vs Aurora 16 Shout Out The "test"
#200
27th October 2008
Old 27th October 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovisceral View Post
definitely. metalic is a good word for it. and what you're hearing there is the cheapest chinese components/manufacturing money can buy. which is why i was mentioning swapping some parts (capacitors) out for higher quality ones like the aurora uses.

maudio stuff doesn't tend to have the same issues with losing low end or thump like the aurora. if you could get both working together they'd probably sound like a strong match.

also don't forget this shootout with m-audio as well
Rosetta 200 Vs Aurora 16 Shout Out The "test"
I wonder if it's extremely difficult to swap out analog parts?

Thanks for having patience with me. I had to prove this to myself and I actually don't believe I ended up doing so well.
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#201
27th October 2008
Old 27th October 2008
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Originally Posted by Osse_87 View Post

is the preamps in the unit just as good as the converters? And is the "Line in" just an attenuation throught the preamps or real Lines, right into the A/D?
The preamp is very clean and boring up to 50db... much past that and it gets noisy and grainy.

The line in goes through the preamp and is attenuated down about 10db. At this level the preamp circuit has little to no effect on the audio. I know this because I modded one of mine to skip the preamp entirely and go straight to the converter chip. I didn't hear a significant difference... the unit was just slightly cleaner but essentially had the same sound...
#202
27th October 2008
Old 27th October 2008
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Originally Posted by somsto75 View Post
I wonder if it's extremely difficult to swap out analog parts?
ya it's pretty tricky. especially with cheap factory gear like this. i wouldn't recommend it unless you're already a pro with a soldering iron. otherwise likely not worth the time or effort.

and no problem. you're doing fine. the aurora would still be a great buy compared to its peers. if you like it, buy it. i still like it. i just wouldn't too much want it on my kick, snare, or bass. but that's kind of nitpicking. and again, music is a personal thing. it's what you like and what works for you that matters.
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#203
27th October 2008
Old 27th October 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somsto75 View Post
I wonder if it's extremely difficult to swap out analog parts?

Thanks for having patience with me. I had to prove this to myself and I actually don't believe I ended up doing so well.
On the ada8000, doing any mod work is challenging because everything is surface mount... the resistors are smaller than a fruit fly and I almost went blind trying work on that thing! You can't just pop in a new opamp or cap ... you'll need the right set of tools.

Hearing the difference between converters is a learned skill... if you can't hear the difference right away it doesn't mean you suck... you just need to teach your brain what to listen for...

What I do is isolate one part of the mix that I find to be distinctive, then jump back and forth between files while closing my eyes and focusing on just that one part. You have to allow yourself to be very open to whatever comes in. Being relaxed and open is key...
#204
27th October 2008
Old 27th October 2008
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Originally Posted by norman_nomad View Post
On the ada8000, doing any mod work is challenging because everything is surface mount... the resistors are smaller than a fruit fly and I almost went blind trying work on that thing! You can't just pop in a new opamp or cap ... you'll need the right set of tools.
really? like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5x6ACO7iR0A
How to solder surface mount resistors and capacitors
?

so i can't sub in some nichicons, elna silmics or other radial mounts? bummer. surface mount freaks me out.
#205
27th October 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norman_nomad View Post
Hearing the difference between converters is a learned skill... if you can't hear the difference right away it doesn't mean you suck... you just need to teach your brain what to listen for...

What I do is isolate one part of the mix that I find to be distinctive, then jump back and forth between files while closing my eyes and focusing on just that one part. You have to allow yourself to be very open to whatever comes in. Being relaxed and open is key...
Try to think about the reality rather than focusing on the sound.

All this recent talk about preamps and converters being interchangeable is working me up into trying to put forward a definitive protocol and demonstration...
#206
27th October 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovisceral View Post
You think he blew that cap into alignment intentionally?

Norman- Just wondering what you did to kill the ADA (was it just the line in mod) and how did the two that died early go down? It would be cool if that PS mod could eliminate most possibility of a failure.

-Thanks!
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#207
27th October 2008
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Originally Posted by Jidis View Post
You think he blew that cap into alignment intentionally?

Norman- Just wondering what you did to kill the ADA (was it just the line in mod) and how did the two that died early go down? It would be cool if that PS mod could eliminate most possibility of a failure.

-Thanks!
I personally think it was ALL PSU failures. One died just out of the blue... just didn't turn on one day. The other died about 2 weeks after I modded it... so I'm not sure if I had something to do with it... but considering they were both from the same batch, I'm betting it was just a bad toroidal transformer.

The mod is simple... detailed on the prodigy-pro site as the JLM mod. It just takes the signal directly to the A/D chip. No opamps in the signal path, no preamp... only a couple resistors and a small DC blocking electrolytic (I used Black Gates).
#208
27th October 2008
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i was just searching and someone at tapeop:

"The Behringer is an incredible value for the money. The unit gets even better re-capped with Nichicon caps. I am sure the Lynx would be improved too."
Tape Op Message Board :: View topic - gearslutz ADA8000 vs Lynx thread on fire (on fire? lol. more like 'slightly warm' or 'lurching disjointedly' i think ...)

and from prodigy:

"I bought the [ADA8000] to experiment trying different opamps/caps in it, but I soon found out that it was about a good match with my M*TU 896 channels. I tried replacing some lytics with Nichicons in one channel but could not tell any difference."
Prodigy Professional :: View topic - B*erhinger ADA8000 Mods thread

so clearly they can't ALL be surface mount caps. norman: do you recall any standard electrolytic radials inside or do you have any internal pics or anything you could share?

last question i promise. thanks again.
#209
27th October 2008
Old 27th October 2008
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Originally Posted by audiovisceral View Post
i believe they were all recording a split mic signal in parallel.
Yes, but what sounds worse to me, could actually be the best recording. I have no way of judging that.
#210
27th October 2008
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Originally Posted by myrtlebacker View Post
Yes, but what sounds worse to me, could actually be the best recording. I have no way of judging that.
and what would you have rather they'd done?
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