Drum Mic Madness!!!!

drBill · 31st July 2008

Welcome Drum Mic Gearslutz!!!!

So......you guys want to settle in for a little fun? Might take a while, there's a LOT of files and a bunch of pics as well. And almost as many surprises for those interested enough to listen critically.

Some of you might remember my last shootout:
Ribbon Madness....Some Comparisons
Lots of great comments from all of you, so I wanted to get you in on this one as well.

I did a recent drum mic shootout with Craig Bunch. This is NOT a scientific A/B test, but it was a lot of fun, eye opening, and did get way out of hand and seriously over the top pretty fast.

Just a simple comparison of a BUNCH of mics, right???? Well.....not quite.

For this shootout we tried to keep the parts played as close as possible and levels as close as possible, but the transients of the drums themselves fight against consistency as we switch between ribbon, condenser and dynamic mics. Suffice it to say, they are CLOSE in volume, but not perfect. Please take that into account as you listen.

We have a lot of high end mics involved -- and a lot of low end ones as well. Here are the victims:

I learned a lot of things over the course of a couple of days. First, throw what I've been doing "out of habit" for the last decade out the window in favor of taking the road "less traveled". Second, keep an open mind. Third, prepare to be blown away with new mics and techniques. Fourth, don't let a price tag fool you - whether high or low. And Fifth, start saving for more mics.

In an effort to really let you hear the mic as it should be heard, I've put these clips up on my server as full 16/44.1 uncompressed files as well as mp3's for those of you without broadband. If all of you start hitting me hard and it starts to kill the server, I'll have to take it down and figure out some other way.

If enough of you are really interested in checking it out seriously, I'll make a DVD available with mixed audio files as well as Pro Tools sessions so you can "remix" and play with the different mics in more detail - for a nominal cost.

I'm not going to tell you which mics I used until later. We made some unusual choices. Some were fantastic surprises. Others were a failure. But all were educational and will help us get better sounds in the future. Most of the mic placements on the drums are pretty standard choices for continuity purposes.

My partner in crime for this extravaganza was Craig Bunch - LA Session Drummer - lending his incredible feel and great ears. Craig is in process of starting a studio of his own and really wanted to listen to the usual suspects as well as some unusual choices - as objectively as possible. Craig is a member (really more of a lurker) of GS and his moniker is "recordingcustom". He used a brand new set of Yamaha's top of the line drums. I'll let him chime in with what he used for heads, tuning, cymbals, etc.. We tried to choose an appropriate groove or pattern to highlight the drum / mic in question. They are often different for different drums. (ie: the HH groove does not have any toms played during it, but the tom groove has a LOT of toms all over the place.) Different grooves to highlight the drum in question. Hope that makes sense. I think it will as you begin to listen.

Here's the low down on how we recorded his drums:

Kick & Hat went thru API512B's
Snare Top and Side went thru API 512C's
Toms went thru the D&R OrionX pre's in my console
Overheads went thru the D&R OrionX pre's in my console
Mono Room mics went thru the Purple Biz
Stereo Room mics went thru the D&R OrionX pre's in my console

Cabling is Mogami for the most part.

All pre's went WITHOUT ANY EQ OR COMPRESSION straight into Pro Tools HD3 Accel via Digidesign 192 converters. There is no processing of any sort anywhere in the signal path. No EQ, No Verb, No Compression, etc. Any ambience you hear is the room.

Please see the pics scattered throughout for placement, room treatment (or lack thereof) and layout.

IMPORTANT : On each clip, you will hear the mic in question in the "overall drum mix" first - AT A SOMEWHAT HIGHER LEVEL THAN IT WOULD NORMALLY BE MIXED AT (FOR DEMO PURPOSES), and in a "groove" situation. Then, you'll hear the drum by itself with all the other mics "open" and lastly just the mic solo'd by itself - all other mics muted. This should give you a better real world idea of how the mic really sounds in the "drum kit" during a groove, with all the other mics open, and finally solo'd by itself. For my purposes, putting up one mic on a drum source and listening is useless. Those types of shootouts don't do anything for me.

So......

Let's get to it:

GROUND ZERO: The mics that are normally up all the time during these clips until it's time to switch out mics for the individual drum/mic in question:

Kick - inside placement - Sennheiser 441 (Craig's request)
Snare Top - Shure SM57
Snare Side - Audix i5
Hi Hat - AKG C451E w/ CK1 capsule
Toms - top placement - CAD M177's
Overheads: Gefell M71S's in a spaced pair configuration.
Room - M.Joly modded Apex 205 - 4 feet up and 6 feet in front of kit

These mics have traditionally got a good sound out of Craig's kits in my room.

I'll post each mic test in a seperate post. Stand by for clips!!!

drBill · 31st July 2008

First up are the kick mics. First we'll do the inside kic mics. For our purposes on this shootout, we tried EITHER inside OR outside. Not both. Normally, I'll use both, but to simplify things for shootout purposes, it's either inside OR outside.

Here are 7 inside kick mics to check out. All are positioned identically, even though I'm sure I could get a better sound if we took the time to re-position. That's not what this shootout was about though. It was to get a feel for the "flavor" or the mics, not get it to sound as good as possible. Check out the pic for mic placement. Most are cardiod or supercardiod, but there was one omni in the bunch.

In no particular order: Shure Beta52, AKG D112, Audix D6, Sennheiser 441, Sennheiser 421, Shure SM57, EV 635A

HI REZ WAV
http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...ck/iKick01.wav
http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...ck/iKick02.wav
http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...ck/iKick03.wav
http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...ck/iKick04.wav
http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...ck/iKick05.wav
http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...ck/iKick06.wav
http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...ck/iKick07.wav

LO REZ MP3
http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...ck/iKick01.mp3
http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...ck/iKick02.mp3
http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...ck/iKick03.mp3
http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...ck/iKick04.mp3
http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...ck/iKick05.mp3
http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...ck/iKick06.mp3
http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...ck/iKick07.mp3

---

THE KEY TO WHICH MICS ARE WHICH RESIDE IN POST # 76 OF THIS THREAD. HAPPY LISTENING!!!

drBill · 31st July 2008

drBill · 31st July 2008

drBill · 31st July 2008

drBill · 31st July 2008

drBill · 31st July 2008

drBill · 31st July 2008

Renegade Prod · 31st July 2008

amishsixstringe · 31st July 2008

This is INSANE. I'm not going to get any work done tomorrow...Thanks!

Does anybody else hear severe clipping on Snare number 10?

Neil

drBill · 31st July 2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by amishsixstringe

This is INSANE. I'm not going to get any work done tomorrow...Thanks!

Does anybody else hear severe clipping on Snare number 10?

Neil

Neil, yeah, it's there. That particular mic didn't really like sitting 1/2" over the snare head with Craig wailing on it. It has a pad, but it got away from me and we were burning thru, so I left it in. In the spirit of putting every mic in the same place, I just let it go. I'm still not sure where I was when that take went down.....???

???

BTW, I think tomorrow I'm going to reveal the mics used for each shootout, although I'll wait to reveal which mic is which until after people get to live with it for awhile.

Have fun!

bp

junior · 31st July 2008

Holy cow!!!

bigbone · 31st July 2008

Thank's a million time for that shootout....... i do apreciate it.

spandex man · 31st July 2008

Woah, this is insane!!!

Ive had a listen thorugh a fair few of the tracks, but only through my Sennheiser HD 280 Pro's. Ill have a listen through proper monitors tomorrow.

I tried to pick out the kick mics at the start, but i havent used the EV before and never tried the 421 and 441 on kick so it was a little hard to tell. I think i will reserve judgment for now. At first listen i really like toms 5 and 6, but rack one seems a little weird to me and i couldnt make a good decision on that drum. Hihat 1 was my favorite in that test, and of the few OH clips i checked out i liked number 13 with the bleumlin rear the best. Snares i had a hard time with for some reason, i think it will take another listen to get a decent opinion.

Cant wait to find out which mic was which. Thanks alot drBill! I have a feeling my G.A.S will flare up again in the next few days...

drBill · 31st July 2008

Thanks for the kind words guys. I will start putting up some pics here soon when I get the opportunity. Looking forward to your thoughts. There were a couple of BIG surprises for me.

Mike Caffrey · 31st July 2008

I found there was too much OH/room sound in the mix. The last 3-4 snare mics were much hotter and thei mies sounded better for this purpose.

drBill · 31st July 2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey

I found there was too much OH/room sound in the mix. The last 3-4 snare mics were much hotter and thei mies sounded better for this purpose.

Mike - which clips are you refering to?? it may just be my personal style coming thru. Generally I get 60+% of my sound from the OH mics. I find myself using less and less of the close mics as time goes on. If this is a general consenses, I can remix the clips in question with more of the close mic. As a short term "fix" for those who feel the mixes too "ambient" - the end of every clip has the mic in question "solo'd".

bp

Mike Caffrey · 31st July 2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by drBill

Mike - which clips are you refering to?? it may just be my personal style coming thru. Generally I get 60+% of my sound from the OH mics. I find myself using less and less of the close mics as time goes on. If this is a general consenses, I can remix the clips in question with more of the close mic. As a short term "fix" for those who feel the mixes too "ambient" - the end of every clip has the mic in question "solo'd".

bp

I listed to the kick and snare clips.

I'll start with the argument against my position. The clips should be mixed as close to the final context as possible, which is kind of how it sounds to me.

What I found was that in some cases, there wasn't much difference until you hear the solo'd mic. So maybe that's the lesson - that the mic makes almost no difference.

However, if you're trying to highlight the differences in the sounds, less OH/room will help, and it imposes your taste a little less.

Also, for my taste, I'd rather hear the solo'd mic at the top.

Hayman · 31st July 2008

I think the most important thing with this great test is that you can hear how different mics capture not only their "targeted" drum but also how that mic capture the rest of the drums and how well they all sound together.

Richard

danbronson · 1st August 2008

I really liked the piano ribbon clips, this is in a whole new league though! Thanks for taking the time to do this!

I can't wait to listen on proper monitors and write down some notes. Let us know what the mics are soon pleeeease!

TheArchitect · 1st August 2008

Having listened to the inside Kick, snare and toms, the biggest differences where in the kick. The toms were a little too muffled to hear much of a difference IMO. The snares were real close as well although some differences were audible..

thanks. had to be a lot of work. When so we get the results?

drBill · 1st August 2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey

I listed to the kick and snare clips.

I'll start with the argument against my position. The clips should be mixed as close to the final context as possible, which is kind of how it sounds to me.

What I found was that in some cases, there wasn't much difference until you hear the solo'd mic. So maybe that's the lesson - that the mic makes almost no difference.

However, if you're trying to highlight the differences in the sounds, less OH/room will help, and it imposes your taste a little less.

Also, for my taste, I'd rather hear the solo'd mic at the top.

Hey Mike! thanks for the comments. As I stated in the setup - FOR ME - (and I was really only doing this for craig and myself) listening to a mic without it being in the final "context", is worthless. Well, not worthless, but not much help. If you are not hearing much difference in the big picture, then I would conclude that the difference between the mic/mics really is minimal and not that big of a deal. Grab whatever's close. A complete and FAIR drum mic shootout is about as close to impossible as anything I can think of. Everything effects everything else. It's all interactive. I would have loved to hit the EQ, but that would have raised the complexity of things exponentially. Then compression, to the third power....

Even as the shootout sits now, I think a WHOLE lot of people took one look at it and said.....thanks, PASS!!

I'll presume your comments are mostly towards the snare clips since the OH mics play a lot less of a part on the Kick. I see your point, and certainly it's a valid one. I could have done it with NO overheads, but for me, the overheads are at least 70% of my snare sound. The close instrument mic is just for whooomph. Not much else. So taking out the OH would really sound weird to me.

Like I said in the setup, if I get enough interest, I'll make these all available in Pro Tools Format so that people can adjust the mix levels to suit their own esthetic. Really, that's the only way for critical listening anyway, because slight level balances between mics make ALL the difference in the world.

I guess it's all in measures. If I ever have time, I'll try to go back and reduce the amount of OH on the snare clips if it seems right when I get in the session. Thanks again!

BTW, your comments would lead one to believe that the OH mics are the most important drum mics you have. And I'd have to agree with that. thumbsup

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hayman

I think the most important thing with this great test is that you can hear how different mics capture not only their "targeted" drum but also how that mic capture the rest of the drums and how well they all sound together.

Richard

Thanks Richard!! That's what I was after. I think we'd all do the test a little different. I know next time I'd do it different still, but ultimately you have to do something or end up with nothing. I did spend a substantial amount of time thinking about how to present the clips, and still....I know it could be better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by danbronson

I really liked the piano ribbon clips, this is in a whole new league though! Thanks for taking the time to do this!

I can't wait to listen on proper monitors and write down some notes. Let us know what the mics are soon pleeeease!

Thanks dan. I loved doing the piano ribbon clips, but this was a lot more challenging as far as "listening" is concerned. Although at first all the mics may sound very similar, critical listening on good monitors in a decent envrionment (ie: NOT at your computer) will reveal the subtlties of how the mic affects the other drum mics, the punch, the overall timbre. etc.. My wife would say a mic sounds like a mic. I think we all know different. This shootout is all about seeing if more than one set of tom mics is necessary. Or if a condenser is better than a dynamic on the snare. Etc. I hope that with repeated listenings and the reveal of the mics, you'll know for sure - or at least have an educated guess whether a mic will work for your drum application.

Here's an interesting thought for everyone. One of the reasons I like my favorite tom mics is because of how the BLEED from other drums sounds in them. Musical, not muddy, thuddy or muffled. THAT makes all the difference to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheArchitect

Having listened to the inside Kick, snare and toms, the biggest differences where in the kick. The toms were a little too muffled to hear much of a difference IMO. The snares were real close as well although some differences were audible..

thanks. had to be a lot of work. When so we get the results?

Results are going to be a few days away I think. There's a lot for people to listen thru and I don't want to ruin it with the preconceived notions that we all have. I know that there's a $29.00 mic in there that ABSOLUTELY floored me, that had been sitting in my mic closet for 2 years unused. LOL

For what it's worth, the Tom mics were really different for me......

Cheers,

bp

drBill · 1st August 2008

One additional thought....

Thru the years I've found that if you have a great player, and a great instrument, you can mic it with almost (I did say almost....

) anything and it will sound good, if not great.

When you REALLY need to know your mics and placement are when the drummer shows up with dead heads, poor technique and a cheapo set. You may not get great, but your mic choice will DEFINATELY make a big difference.

What we have here is a superb kit, brand new heads, and a drummer that knows how to tune them and how to play them.

That may be what is contributing to some of your thoughts that the mics are not a different sounding as you suspected...

Either that or you need to get your monitoring together!!!!!

Cheers,

bp

TheArchitect · 1st August 2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by drBill

Hey Mike! thanks for the comments. As I stated in the setup - FOR ME - (and I was really only doing this for craig and myself) listening to a mic without it being in the final "context", is worthless. Well, not worthless, but not much help. If you are not hearing much difference in the big picture, then I would conclude that the difference between the mic/mics really is minimal and not that big of a deal. Grab whatever's close. A complete and FAIR drum mic shootout is about as close to impossible as anything I can think of. Everything effects everything else. It's all interactive. I would have loved to hit the EQ, but that would have raised the complexity of things exponentially. Then compression, to the third power....

Even as the shootout sits now, I think a WHOLE lot of people took one look at it and said.....thanks, PASS!!

I'll presume your comments are mostly towards the snare clips since the OH mics play a lot less of a part on the Kick. I see your point, and certainly it's a valid one. I could have done it with NO overheads, but for me, the overheads are at least 70% of my snare sound. The close instrument mic is just for whooomph. Not much else. So taking out the OH would really sound weird to me.

Like I said in the setup, if I get enough interest, I'll make these all available in Pro Tools Format so that people can adjust the mix levels to suit their own esthetic. Really, that's the only way for critical listening anyway, because slight level balances between mics make ALL the difference in the world.

I guess it's all in measures. If I ever have time, I'll try to go back and reduce the amount of OH on the snare clips if it seems right when I get in the session. Thanks again!

BTW, your comments would lead one to believe that the OH mics are the most important drum mics you have. And I'd have to agree with that. thumbsup

Thanks Richard!! That's what I was after. I think we'd all do the test a little different. I know next time I'd do it different still, but ultimately you have to do something or end up with nothing. I did spend a substantial amount of time thinking about how to present the clips, and still....I know it could be better.

Thanks dan. I loved doing the piano ribbon clips, but this was a lot more challenging as far as "listening" is concerned. Although at first all the mics may sound very similar, critical listening on good monitors in a decent envrionment (ie: NOT at your computer) will reveal the subtlties of how the mic affects the other drum mics, the punch, the overall timbre. etc.. My wife would say a mic sounds like a mic. I think we all know different. This shootout is all about seeing if more than one set of tom mics is necessary. Or if a condenser is better than a dynamic on the snare. Etc. I hope that with repeated listenings and the reveal of the mics, you'll know for sure - or at least have an educated guess whether a mic will work for your drum application.

Here's an interesting thought for everyone. One of the reasons I like my favorite tom mics is because of how the BLEED from other drums sounds in them. Musical, not muddy, thuddy or muffled. THAT makes all the difference to me.

Results are going to be a few days away I think. There's a lot for people to listen thru and I don't want to ruin it with the preconceived notions that we all have. I know that there's a $29.00 mic in there that ABSOLUTELY floored me, that had been sitting in my mic closet for 2 years unused. LOL

For what it's worth, the Tom mics were really different for me......

Cheers,

bp

I will give them another listen tomorrow. May just need fresh ears.

Mike Brown · 1st August 2008

drBill you are amazing!

Thank you so much for sharing these files with us! I know we all appreciate the work it takes to take the time to do, organize, and post things like this!

I've been through about half of the more curious choices and I think one sounds so good I wonder if you labeled it wrong

... definitely going to get more use in my "usual" setup (although it seems like unusual is now the way to go!).

Lot of fun to listen to these, lots of surprises!

So thank you! I am going to keep my cards close to the chest til later and see what other people come up with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by drBill

One additional thought....

Thru the years I've found that if you have a great player, and a great instrument, you can mic it with almost (I did say almost....

) anything and it will sound good, if not great.

When you REALLY need to know your mics and placement are when the drummer shows up with dead heads, poor technique and a cheapo set. You may not get great, but your mic choice will DEFINATELY make a big difference.

What we have here is a superb kit, brand new heads, and a drummer that knows how to tune them and how to play them.

That may be what is contributing to some of your thoughts that the mics are not a different sounding as you suspected...

Either that or you need to get your monitoring together!!!!!

Cheers,

bp

drBill · 1st August 2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mayor999

drBill you are amazing!

Can I quote you on that??? Are you anybody important???

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mayor999

Thank you so much for sharing these files with us! I know we all appreciate the work it takes to take the time to do, organize, and post things like this!.

You're welcome!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mayor999

I've been through about half of the more curious choices and I think one sounds so good I wonder if you labeled it wrong

... definitely going to get more use in my "usual" setup (although it seems like unusual is now the way to go!).

Hold on there!!!!! Labeled it wrong???? I haven't revealed anything yet. The mics listed at the top of each group of clips are listed IN NO PARTICULAR ORDER. In other words, those are the mics I used - not the order. Until I reveal, you'll just have to guess....

ORGANIK · 1st August 2008

thank for this !!! this is sooo dope that you took all the time out to do this! much appreciated !!! cant wait fot the results!

Mike Brown · 1st August 2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by drBill

Hold on there!!!!! Labeled it wrong???? I haven't revealed anything yet. The mics listed at the top of each group of clips are listed IN NO PARTICULAR ORDER. In other words, those are the mics I used - not the order. Until I reveal, you'll just have to guess....

Hahahah!

Well that might explain that!

drBill · 1st August 2008

As promised.....

Some Pics!

Craig's new Yamaha Kit :

Side shot of the kit :

From the opposite side of the kit :

Kit from the top :

more to come........

drBill · 1st August 2008

I apologize up front for the blurry pics. Not sure what was going on with my camera....

Here's a shot of the inside Kick mic placement. You can also see it in some of the previous pics. Right now it's got a Shure Beta52 on it. Placement was about 5 inches inside the hole, pointed at the beater.

Outside of Kick. There's a sputnik on it right now.... All outside of kick mics were in Fig8 mode and about 3-4" off the front head.

Another outside of kick pic. Sputnik again.

Normally there was a Sennheiser 441 on the kick.

More to come......

31st July 2008	#1
drBill Gear Guru Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: So Cal Posts: 11,014 Thread Starter	Drum Mic Madness!!!! Welcome Drum Mic Gearslutz!!!! So......you guys want to settle in for a little fun? Might take a while, there's a LOT of files and a bunch of pics as well. And almost as many surprises for those interested enough to listen critically. Some of you might remember my last shootout: Ribbon Madness....Some Comparisons Lots of great comments from all of you, so I wanted to get you in on this one as well. I did a recent drum mic shootout with Craig Bunch. This is NOT a scientific A/B test, but it was a lot of fun, eye opening, and did get way out of hand and seriously over the top pretty fast. Just a simple comparison of a BUNCH of mics, right???? Well.....not quite. For this shootout we tried to keep the parts played as close as possible and levels as close as possible, but the transients of the drums themselves fight against consistency as we switch between ribbon, condenser and dynamic mics. Suffice it to say, they are CLOSE in volume, but not perfect. Please take that into account as you listen. We have a lot of high end mics involved -- and a lot of low end ones as well. Here are the victims: I learned a lot of things over the course of a couple of days. First, throw what I've been doing "out of habit" for the last decade out the window in favor of taking the road "less traveled". Second, keep an open mind. Third, prepare to be blown away with new mics and techniques. Fourth, don't let a price tag fool you - whether high or low. And Fifth, start saving for more mics. In an effort to really let you hear the mic as it should be heard, I've put these clips up on my server as full 16/44.1 uncompressed files as well as mp3's for those of you without broadband. If all of you start hitting me hard and it starts to kill the server, I'll have to take it down and figure out some other way. If enough of you are really interested in checking it out seriously, I'll make a DVD available with mixed audio files as well as Pro Tools sessions so you can "remix" and play with the different mics in more detail - for a nominal cost. I'm not going to tell you which mics I used until later. We made some unusual choices. Some were fantastic surprises. Others were a failure. But all were educational and will help us get better sounds in the future. Most of the mic placements on the drums are pretty standard choices for continuity purposes. My partner in crime for this extravaganza was Craig Bunch - LA Session Drummer - lending his incredible feel and great ears. Craig is in process of starting a studio of his own and really wanted to listen to the usual suspects as well as some unusual choices - as objectively as possible. Craig is a member (really more of a lurker) of GS and his moniker is "recordingcustom". He used a brand new set of Yamaha's top of the line drums. I'll let him chime in with what he used for heads, tuning, cymbals, etc.. We tried to choose an appropriate groove or pattern to highlight the drum / mic in question. They are often different for different drums. (ie: the HH groove does not have any toms played during it, but the tom groove has a LOT of toms all over the place.) Different grooves to highlight the drum in question. Hope that makes sense. I think it will as you begin to listen. Here's the low down on how we recorded his drums: Kick & Hat went thru API512B's Snare Top and Side went thru API 512C's Toms went thru the D&R OrionX pre's in my console Overheads went thru the D&R OrionX pre's in my console Mono Room mics went thru the Purple Biz Stereo Room mics went thru the D&R OrionX pre's in my console Cabling is Mogami for the most part. All pre's went WITHOUT ANY EQ OR COMPRESSION straight into Pro Tools HD3 Accel via Digidesign 192 converters. There is no processing of any sort anywhere in the signal path. No EQ, No Verb, No Compression, etc. Any ambience you hear is the room. Please see the pics scattered throughout for placement, room treatment (or lack thereof) and layout. IMPORTANT : On each clip, you will hear the mic in question in the "overall drum mix" first - AT A SOMEWHAT HIGHER LEVEL THAN IT WOULD NORMALLY BE MIXED AT (FOR DEMO PURPOSES), and in a "groove" situation. Then, you'll hear the drum by itself with all the other mics "open" and lastly just the mic solo'd by itself - all other mics muted. This should give you a better real world idea of how the mic really sounds in the "drum kit" during a groove, with all the other mics open, and finally solo'd by itself. For my purposes, putting up one mic on a drum source and listening is useless. Those types of shootouts don't do anything for me. So...... Let's get to it: GROUND ZERO: The mics that are normally up all the time during these clips until it's time to switch out mics for the individual drum/mic in question: Kick - inside placement - Sennheiser 441 (Craig's request) Snare Top - Shure SM57 Snare Side - Audix i5 Hi Hat - AKG C451E w/ CK1 capsule Toms - top placement - CAD M177's Overheads: Gefell M71S's in a spaced pair configuration. Room - M.Joly modded Apex 205 - 4 feet up and 6 feet in front of kit These mics have traditionally got a good sound out of Craig's kits in my room. I'll post each mic test in a seperate post. Stand by for clips!!! __________________ Mindseye http://www.mindseyeprod.com IMDB Composer - Orchestrator Scoring & Mix Engineer - Music Editor

31st July 2008	#2
drBill Gear Guru Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: So Cal Posts: 11,014 Thread Starter	Inside Kic Mics First up are the kick mics. First we'll do the inside kic mics. For our purposes on this shootout, we tried EITHER inside OR outside. Not both. Normally, I'll use both, but to simplify things for shootout purposes, it's either inside OR outside. Here are 7 inside kick mics to check out. All are positioned identically, even though I'm sure I could get a better sound if we took the time to re-position. That's not what this shootout was about though. It was to get a feel for the "flavor" or the mics, not get it to sound as good as possible. Check out the pic for mic placement. Most are cardiod or supercardiod, but there was one omni in the bunch. In no particular order: Shure Beta52, AKG D112, Audix D6, Sennheiser 441, Sennheiser 421, Shure SM57, EV 635A HI REZ WAV http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...ck/iKick01.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...ck/iKick02.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...ck/iKick03.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...ck/iKick04.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...ck/iKick05.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...ck/iKick06.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...ck/iKick07.wav LO REZ MP3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...ck/iKick01.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...ck/iKick02.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...ck/iKick03.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...ck/iKick04.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...ck/iKick05.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...ck/iKick06.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...ck/iKick07.mp3 --- THE KEY TO WHICH MICS ARE WHICH RESIDE IN POST # 76 OF THIS THREAD. HAPPY LISTENING!!!

31st July 2008	#3
drBill Gear Guru Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: So Cal Posts: 11,014 Thread Starter	Outside Kick Drum Mics OK. On to the outside kick mics. We've got an assortment of LDC solid state and tube mics up to check out. All are in fig8 mode. Here's the 5 candidates: In no particular order: Neumann U87 Fig8, Gefell UM70 Fig8, M-Audio Sputnik Fig8, AKG C414B-ULS Fig8, Groove Tubes AM62 Fig8 HI REZ WAV http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...Kick01fig8.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...Kick02fig8.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...Kick03fig8.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...Kick04fig8.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...Kick05fig8.wav LO REZ MP3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...Kick01fig8.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...Kick02fig8.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...Kick03fig8.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...Kick04fig8.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...Kick05fig8.mp3 --- THE KEY TO WHICH MICS ARE WHICH RESIDE IN POST # 76 OF THIS THREAD. HAPPY LISTENING!!!

31st July 2008	#4
drBill Gear Guru Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: So Cal Posts: 11,014 Thread Starter	Hi Hat Mics Next up, Hi Hat mics. Although I rarely use much of the HH mic in the mix, on really busy stuff, or where the drummer actually retains good control like Craig, I like to use a bit of it to lock the stereo image into place. We've got 8 different examples for you to listen to. SDC's, LDC's, and even a ribbon. In no particular order: Gefell 692-M70, AKG C451E Hat, AKG 414B-ULS, Neumann KM84, Gefell UM70, AT 3528, MXL 991, Apex 205MJ HI REZ WAV http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...1hats/HH01.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...1hats/HH02.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...1hats/HH03.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...1hats/HH04.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...1hats/HH05.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...1hats/HH06.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...1hats/HH07.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...1hats/HH08.wav LO REZ MP3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...1hats/HH01.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...1hats/HH02.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...1hats/HH03.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...1hats/HH04.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...1hats/HH05.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...1hats/HH06.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...1hats/HH07.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...1hats/HH08.mp3 --- THE KEY TO WHICH MICS ARE WHICH RESIDE IN POST # 76 OF THIS THREAD. HAPPY LISTENING!!!

31st July 2008	#5
drBill Gear Guru Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: So Cal Posts: 11,014 Thread Starter	Snare Mics (Top) OK. The moment a lot of you have been waiting for - SNARES! I almost always use TWO snare mics, but again, to keep things simple, there is a i5 on the side of the snare at a dramatically lower level, with 75% of the snare sound is coming from the top snare mic due to lowering the overheads gain to get a feel for each snare mic individually. To reiterate, for this test, I've lowered the overheads much lower than normal and raised the level of the top snare mic so we can get a better idea of the snare mic in question. Ten mics to choose from!!! In no particular order : Neumann KM84, Shure SM57, MXL 991(604), Audix i5, Sennheiser 441, BeyerDynamic M201, Gefell 692-M70, AKG C451E/CK1, Groove Tubes AM62, Sennheiser 421 HI REZ WAV http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...snare/Sn01.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...snare/Sn02.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...snare/Sn03.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...snare/Sn04.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...snare/Sn05.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...snare/Sn06.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...snare/Sn07.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...snare/Sn08.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...snare/Sn09.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...snare/Sn10.wav LO REZ MP3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...snare/Sn01.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...snare/Sn02.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...snare/Sn03.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...snare/Sn04.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...snare/Sn05.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...snare/Sn06.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...snare/Sn07.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...snare/Sn08.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...snare/Sn09.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...snare/Sn10.mp3 --- THE KEY TO WHICH MICS ARE WHICH RESIDE IN POST # 76 OF THIS THREAD. HAPPY LISTENING!!!

31st July 2008	#6
drBill Gear Guru Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: So Cal Posts: 11,014 Thread Starter	Tom Mics Next up are the toms. There were a couple of anomalies with this test. Due to not having 3 of everything, on one of the clips I used (2) UM70 with a M71 - all in cardiod, so they are VERY similar. In addition, I used (2) 414's and a U87 on floor tom on one of the clips. Other than that, all mics on all 3 toms are identical. Hope that makes sense. Again, I lowered the OH mics quite a bit in an attempt to give you a clearer image of the tom mics themselves. Here you go: In no particular order : Sennheiser 421, AKG414-NeumannU87, MXL 604(991), Audix i5, CAD M177, Gefell UM70-M71S, Shure SM57, Neumann KM84 HI REZ WAV http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...oms/Toms01.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...oms/Toms02.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...oms/Toms03.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...oms/Toms04.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...oms/Toms05.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...oms/Toms06.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...oms/Toms07.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...oms/Toms08.wav LO REZ MP3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...oms/Toms01.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...oms/Toms02.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...oms/Toms03.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...oms/Toms04.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...oms/Toms05.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...oms/Toms06.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...oms/Toms07.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...oms/Toms08.mp3 --- THE KEY TO WHICH MICS ARE WHICH RESIDE IN POST # 76 OF THIS THREAD. HAPPY LISTENING!!!

31st July 2008	#7
drBill Gear Guru Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: So Cal Posts: 11,014 Thread Starter	Overhead Mics OK. Overheads are up next!! This is where things start to get a little messy. If you look in the name of the file itself, it will tell you a little more about the placement, pattern of the mic capsule, and whether it's a mono placement or not. 16 mics / placements to choose from. This is a fun one. In no particular order : M-Audio Sputnik, AKG C414B-ULS, MXL V69ME, Gefell M71S, Apex 205MJ, Cascade X-15, Neumann KM84, AKG C451E/CK1, Gefell 692/M70, Neumann U87, Cascade Fathead II, GrooveTubes AM62 (A few of the mics are tried in different positions with different polar patterns.) HI REZ WAV http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...SpacedCard.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...cedCardHPF.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...SpacedCard.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...SpacedCard.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...SpacedCard.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...adBlumlein.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...SpacedCard.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...SpacedFig8.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...cedFig8HPF.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...SpacedCard.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...ntBlumlein.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...SpacedFig8.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...arBlumlein.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...14MonoCard.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...15MonoCard.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...16MonoFig8.wav LO REZ MP3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...SpacedCard.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...cedCardHPF.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...SpacedCard.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...SpacedCard.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...SpacedCard.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...adBlumlein.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...SpacedCard.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...SpacedFig8.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...cedFig8HPF.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...SpacedCard.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...ntBlumlein.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...SpacedFig8.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...arBlumlein.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...14MonoCard.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...15MonoCard.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...16MonoFig8.mp3 --- THE KEY TO WHICH MICS ARE WHICH RESIDE IN POST # 76 OF THIS THREAD. HAPPY LISTENING!!!

31st July 2008	#8
drBill Gear Guru Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: So Cal Posts: 11,014 Thread Starter	Room Mics And last, but certinly not least - ROOM mics. Both mono (my normal method), and stereo. The stereo mics when in Fig8 have the null pointing at the drum kit. When stereo and in Cardiod, the cardiod capsule is pointing at the drum kit. Eleven victims on this test. The first example is how the kit sounds WITHOUT a room mic. Versions 2-11 are with the various room mics. In no particular order : Cascade X-15, Gefell M71S, Apex 205MJ, Cascade Fathead II, M-Audio Sputnik, GrooveTubes AM62, MXL V6 (Sorry, mislabeled as a V3 - it's a V6), Neumann U87 HI REZ WAV http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...om00NoRoom.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...01MonoCard.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...02MonoFig8.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...onoFig8wav.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...04MonoCard.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...05MonoCard.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...06MonoCard.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...07MonoCard.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...eoFig8Null.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...eoFig8Null.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...StereoCard.wav http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...ntBlumlein.wav LO REZ MP3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...om00NoRoom.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...01MonoCard.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...02MonoFig8.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...onoFig8wav.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...04MonoCard.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...05MonoCard.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...06MonoCard.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...07MonoCard.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...eoFig8Null.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...eoFig8Null.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...StereoCard.mp3 http://www.mindseyeprod.com/wpdrumsh...ntBlumlein.mp3 --- THE KEY TO WHICH MICS ARE WHICH RESIDE IN POST # 76 OF THIS THREAD. HAPPY LISTENING!!!

31st July 2008	#9
Renegade Prod Gear addict Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Gold Coast / NYC Posts: 456

31st July 2008	#10
amishsixstringe Lives for gear Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 1,231	This is INSANE. I'm not going to get any work done tomorrow...Thanks! Does anybody else hear severe clipping on Snare number 10? Neil __________________ My Recording Studio Build Thread: http://www.gearslutz.com/board/photo...hens-ohio.html Photobucket Page with TONS more studio photos: http://s152.photobucket.com/albums/s...ding%20Studio/ www.myspace.com/amishelectricchair www.gcrecords.com

31st July 2008	#12
junior Lives for gear Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,978	Holy cow!!!

31st July 2008	#13
bigbone Lives for gear Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Montreal Qc Posts: 1,504	Thank's a million time for that shootout....... i do apreciate it.

31st July 2008	#14
spandex man Gear nut Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 140	Woah, this is insane!!! Ive had a listen thorugh a fair few of the tracks, but only through my Sennheiser HD 280 Pro's. Ill have a listen through proper monitors tomorrow. I tried to pick out the kick mics at the start, but i havent used the EV before and never tried the 421 and 441 on kick so it was a little hard to tell. I think i will reserve judgment for now. At first listen i really like toms 5 and 6, but rack one seems a little weird to me and i couldnt make a good decision on that drum. Hihat 1 was my favorite in that test, and of the few OH clips i checked out i liked number 13 with the bleumlin rear the best. Snares i had a hard time with for some reason, i think it will take another listen to get a decent opinion. Cant wait to find out which mic was which. Thanks alot drBill! I have a feeling my G.A.S will flare up again in the next few days...

31st July 2008	#16
Mike Caffrey Lives for gear Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: New York City Posts: 4,088	I found there was too much OH/room sound in the mix. The last 3-4 snare mics were much hotter and thei mies sounded better for this purpose.

31st July 2008	#19
Hayman Gear Head Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 35	I think the most important thing with this great test is that you can hear how different mics capture not only their "targeted" drum but also how that mic capture the rest of the drums and how well they all sound together. Richard

1st August 2008	#20
danbronson Lives for gear Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Calgary, Alberta Posts: 871	I really liked the piano ribbon clips, this is in a whole new league though! Thanks for taking the time to do this! I can't wait to listen on proper monitors and write down some notes. Let us know what the mics are soon pleeeease!

1st August 2008	#21
TheArchitect Lives for gear Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 1,131	Having listened to the inside Kick, snare and toms, the biggest differences where in the kick. The toms were a little too muffled to hear much of a difference IMO. The snares were real close as well although some differences were audible.. thanks. had to be a lot of work. When so we get the results?

1st August 2008	#27
ORGANIK Gear addict Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: new york Posts: 413	damm you rock !! thank for this !!! this is sooo dope that you took all the time out to do this! much appreciated !!! cant wait fot the results!

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