Drum Mic Madness!!!!

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Xenon

Thanks drBill, and I've listened again as well (yet romantically).

Richard, sorry, I need to give some clarification. When I said Kick1 - I MEANT to say YOUR CHOICE 1 - which of course is iKick02. The mic the metal guys like is iKick01 - your second choice. Sorry for any confusion.

I like your reasoning on the inside kicks. Makes sense to me.

re: your reasoning about the Sputnik. Sorry, the Sputnik sounds NOTHING like a U87. Not even close. Opposite ends of the universe. The sputnik has none of the "smokey" quality (not sure if that description will pass translation....) of the U87 and has way more bottom and way more top.

No. The i5 is not number 7. I regularly use the i5 though. It's a great mic. I think I'll be going back home to the 57 more often now after this shootout though.

I'm not going to tell you about your tom choices yet, but I CAN say that all 6 of those mics cost LESS than ONE 421. Actually, 4+4 cost less than a 421.

Trading Motorcycles for Mics???? AAAAAAAaaaarrRRRRRRGGGggggggg!!! The agony. I suppose I could have more mics if I didn't have four motorcycles in my garage. OR, I could have that new KTM if I didn't have all these mics. Decisions, decisions......

Room 11 and Room3 are both relatively in-expensive mics. No, 11 is not the Fathead. But you're getting closer.....

bp

[drBill]

Originally Posted by beebay007

I'm no expert but I'll have a guess at some of these.

Hey beebay007!!!!

It's not about being an expert. It's about having some fun and learning something about our mics. Like I said earlier, I learned a LOT by doing this. And the way I'll be workiing in the future will reflect that.

Anyway, you started off very strong with a:

57% correct score on the inside kicks.
You were down to 20% correct on the Snares though
And wound up with only 12.5% right on the Toms


But soon you will know all the answers!!!! Thanks for taking the chance!

bp




PS - I'm sure glad I don't have to guess all these blind......

[Xenon]

Originally Posted by drBill

Richard, sorry, I need to give some clarification. When I said Kick1 - I MEANT to say YOUR CHOICE 1 - which of course is iKick02. The mic the metal guys like is iKick01 - your second choice. Sorry for any confusion.

Got it.

Originally Posted by drBill

I like your reasoning on the inside kicks. Makes sense to me.

To be honest, I have not miced a full drum kit yet with my gear here in the new digs. And my mate here is professional drummer with a rock band and wants a demo, so this shootout is very auspicious. I'm basing my speculations on general/other-instrument mic/tracking experience, and willing to be dead wrong, and to learn more. My experience is that with decent mics and the most nice placement you're ahead of the game. And I'm counting my cash!

Originally Posted by drBill

re: your reasoning about the Sputnik. Sorry, the Sputnik sounds NOTHING like a U87. Not even close. Opposite ends of the universe. The sputnik has none of the "smokey" quality (not sure if that description will pass translation....) of the U87 and has way more bottom and way more top.

As the least costly outside kick mic of the group, I was hoping ...

Originally Posted by drBill

No. The i5 is not number 7. I regularly use the i5 though. It's a great mic. I think I'll be going back home to the 57 more often now after this shootout though.

With bated breath ...

Originally Posted by drBill

I'm not going to tell you about your tom choices yet, but I CAN say that all 6 of those mics cost LESS than ONE 421. Actually, 4+4 cost less than a 421.

the suspense .... just don't head to Cabo before you post ::

Originally Posted by drBill

Trading Motorcycles for Mics???? AAAAAAAaaaarrRRRRRRGGGggggggg!!! The agony. I suppose I could have more mics if I didn't have four motorcycles in my garage. OR, I could have that new KTM if I didn't have all these mics. Decisions, decisions......

Off topic, but I'd rather have my Suzy SV1000S than the BMW R100RS in Japan (what mountain roads we have) , importing being a non starter. I wish I had enough good mics to spend a few on a bike

Originally Posted by drBill

Room 11 and Room3 are both relatively in-expensive mics. No, 11 is not the Fathead. But you're getting closer.....

I'm not going to continue guessing and am really curious where the SM57 shows up. If it's in some of our top choices I'm in for a surprise.

Nothing like good infrastructure,
Xenon

[mcsmitty]

my ears are nowhere near golden nor experienced enough to try to guess which was which, but before the results are posted, here's my picks. i'm interested to see what i chose, given my ongoing love affair with cheap and/or oddball mics.

Inside Kick:
Wasn't digging on any of them too much, but then again my favorite inside kick mic is the Sennheiser 602, so there you go.... 01 in a pinch if I had to pick.

Outside Kick Mics:
02 for boomy vibey folk or indie, or in a song w/sparse instrumentation
04 for tight rock or in a denser mix

Snare Mics
09 was my favorite by a long shot. i felt like i was hearing much more of the drum. also liked 04 and 05.

Toms
03 and 06 rocked my world for clarity and presence/punchiness. also liked 07.

Overheads
OH 5 and OH9 won out for me for clarity and presence. some of the others seemed a bit lacking in detail, even just within the context of the drum mix.

thank you so much for doing all this! +1 to the list of people who greatly appreciate (and are learning from) your effort.

[Sk106]

Originally Posted by drBill

Choosing the right mic can mean life and death in many circumstances, figuratively speaking. This pic reminds me of the 3rd Indiana Jones film, at the the end, when Indy is inside that stone cave (with the knight) hoping to find the holy graal, and he's faced with shelf after shelf containing lots and lots of different cups. He scans the impossible number of selections, like I'm looking at this pic, while he is told:

"You must choose. But choose wisely, for while the true graal will give you eternal life, a false one will take it from you"

[junior]

Originally Posted by Sk106

Choosing the right mic can mean life and death in many circumstances, figuratively speaking. This pic reminds me of the 3rd Indiana Jones film, when in the end Indy is inside that stone cave (with the knight) hoping to find the holy graal, and he's faced with shelf after shelf containing lots and lots of different cups. He looks over impossible number of selections, like I'm looking at this pic, while he is told:

"You must choose. But choose wisely, for while a true graal will give you eternal life, a false one will take it from you"

[AnthonyRochester]

Originally Posted by drBill

57% correct score on the inside kicks.

I'm pretty happy with that!

[junior]

Originally Posted by beebay007

I'm pretty happy with that!

Apparently, you did much better than I.

[drBill]

hey guys, that's just havin' some fun. i could care less if I guess them right as long as I find one that I LIKE!!!

[junior]

True!

Hey, drBill, when are you planning to release the results? I'm itchin' to go shopping!

[AnthonyRochester]

yeah but I think being able to guess them correctly is good to be able to do, so you know what each mic sounds like, which helps you to know which one you want to use to get the sound you want.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by beebay007

yeah but I think being able to guess them correctly is good to be able to do, so you know what each mic sounds like, which helps you to know which one you want to use to get the sound you want.

I agree 100%, that once you KNOW what they are and what they sound like, you should (hopefully) be able to pick them out. But unless you have my mic locker and use them consistantly, the odds are slim. Now that I know what the mics and clips sound like, I can get pretty close, but without doing all this first, I think I'd be sitting in the same boat as you wondering.....

One more thing I'd like to stress before the results - placement, EQ and hard work could completely swap the results here. This was just to get a feel for the "flavor" of the mic. If you really like one of the clips, but the mic is too expensive, it doesn't mean you can't get close with a different mic. Maybe better. Placement is everything, but here, I just put everything in as close to the previous mic's position as possible. thumbsupthumbsup

Now, if Craig would just log in and give his thoughts on which clips he likes, I'll spill the beans!!

bp

[recordingcustom]

Now, if Craig would just log in and give his thoughts on which clips he likes, I'll spill the beans!!

OK, hear goes. My selections were consciously(or possibly subconsciously) based on what I like to hear from my own drums. Also note that I'm a relative newcommer to critical listening. I can't always tell you why I like a particular sound or not. It's something that I just sense or feel at that particular moment. At any rate, I think I'm drawn to what the drums (or what I think the drums) sound like to me when I'm playing the kit. I'll say a transparent sound without hopefully sounding to cliche. It's also very hard for me to make a determination based on the sound of the mic soloed. For me, it's in the context of the entire kit. All the mics are reacting with each other, and the possibilities for different qualities of sound are endlesss. So hear goes...

kick inside #2
kick outside #2
hi-hat #5
snare #4 hands down
toms #1 hands down
overheads #10
room #3

OK Bill, how much do I need for my mic budget?!

Craig

[hachre]

I've also done this great test and these are my results:

Kick Inside: #1, #2 (I like #1 alot more than #2 though)
Kick Outside: #2, #5, #3
HH: #4, #6
Snare: #4, #6
Toms: #3, #4
OH: #5, #4, #10

Those are my votes in order of preference, I can't wait to see which one is which :D

Great work guys, and great recordings
Very nice drumming Craig!

Thanks alot for this test!!

[AnthonyRochester]

right, OK, spill the beans now~!

[drBill]

Originally Posted by beebay007

right, OK, spill the beans now~!

Maybe we should wait a little while longer......























































































OK, here you go:

I don't have the heart to stretch it out any longer!

After all this I sure hope to hear some comments!!!!!
















Hi Hats
HH01 AKG C451E.wav
HH02 Neumann KM84.wav
HH03 Apex 205MJ.wav
HH04 MXL 604-603-991.wav
HH05 AT 3528.wav
HH06 Gefell 692-M70.wav
HH07 Gefell UM70.wav
HH08 AKG 414B-ULS.wav

Kicks (Inside)
iKick01 AKG D112.wav
iKick02 Audix D6.wav
iKick03 EV 635A.wav
iKick04 Sennheiser 441.wav
iKick05 Shure Beta52.wav
iKick06 Sennheiser 421.wav
iKick07 Shure SM57.wav

Kicks (Outside)
oKick01 Neumann U87 Fig8.wav
oKick02 M-Audio Sputnik Fig8.wav
oKick03 AKG C414B-ULS Fig8.wav
oKick04 Gefell UM70 Fig8.wav
oKick05 Groove Tubes AM62 Fig8.wav

Snare (Top)
Sn01 Audix i5.wav
Sn02 Sennheiser 421.wav
Sn03 Shure SM57.wav
Sn04 Sennheiser 441.wav
Sn05 BeyerDynamic M201.wav
Sn06 AKG C451E.wav
Sn07 MXL 991(604-603).wav
Sn08 Neumann KM84.wav
Sn09 Groove Tubes AM62.wav
Sn10 Gefell 692-M70.wav

Toms (Top)
Toms01 CAD M177.wav
Toms02 Shure SM57.wav
Toms03 Neumann KM84.wav
Toms04 Audix i5.wav
Toms05 Sennheiser 421.wav
Toms06 MXL 604-603-991.wav
Toms07 AKG414-NeumannU87.wav
Toms08 GefellUM70-M71.wav

Overheads
OH01 MXL V69ME Card.wav
OH02 M-Audio Sputnik Card HPF.wav
OH03 AKG C451E Card.wav
OH04 Neumann KM84 Card.wav
OH05 Gefell M71S Card.wav
OH06 Cascade X-15 Top Pos Blum.wav
OH07 AKG C414B-ULS Card.wav
OH08 Apex 205MJ Fig8.wav
OH09 M-Audio Sputnik Fig8 HPF.wav
OH10 Gefell 692-M70 Card.wav
OH11 Cascade X-15 Front Pos Blum.wav
OH12 AKG C414B-ULS Fig8.wav
OH13 Cascade X-15 Rear Pos Blum.wav
OH14 GrooveTubes AM62 MONO Card.wav
OH15 Neumann U87 MONO Card.wav
OH16 Cascade Fathead II MONO Fig8.wav

Room
Room00 Drums-No Room.wav
Room01 Neumann U87 Mono Card.wav
Room02 Cascade Fathead II Mono Fig8.wav
Room03 Apex 205MJ Mono Fig8wav.wav
Room04 M-Audio Sputnik Mono Card.wav
Room05 Gefell M71S Mono Card.wav
Room06 MXL V3 Mono Card.wav
Room07 GrooveTubes AM62 Mono Card.wav
Room08 Apex 205MJ Stereo Fig8 Null.wav
Room09 M-Audio Sputnik Stereo Fig8 Null.wav
Room10 M-Audio Sputnik Stereo Card.wav
Room11 Cascade X-15 Stereo Front.wav



So.........whaddaya all think???? What were your biggest surprises???? For good? For bad??


bp

[drBill]

Originally Posted by recordingcustom

OK Bill, how much do I need for my mic budget?!

Craig

List prices - or going prices (without shopping too hard)....



Audix D6 $199 - kick inside #2
M-Audio Sputnik $799 - kick outside #2
Audio Technica 3528 (out of production and going up in price faster than I can type) $50 - hi-hat #5
Sennheiser 441 $700 new $400 used - snare #4 hands down
CAD M179 $128+128+128+(128???-you need 4??) - toms #1 hands down
Gefell 692/M70 (out of production) IF you can find them - $500+500 - overheads #10
Apex 205 Michael Joly Modified $80+250 (mods) - room #3


Around $3500 if you buy new. Maybe around $2500 if you buy used when you can find them and deal hard on the new ones. As for the out of production mics.......difficult to tell. If you really like those Gefell's, I hunt them down FAST and buy them. Gefell's are still pretty much sleeper mics, but the world is finding out fast!!! Personally, I can't figure out why you chose 10 rooms over our normal #5, but at least you stuck with the East Germans!!! :-)

bp

[warhead]

Are you saying the CAD M179 was #1 hands down most picked or am I reading that wrong?

War

[AnthonyRochester]

wow, the SM57 is a surprisingly good inside kick mic

[AnthonyRochester]

Why does snare 4 win? I don't like it

[drBill]

Originally Posted by warhead

Are you saying the CAD M179 was #1 hands down most picked or am I reading that wrong?

War

War, I think you're reading that wrong. The CAD M177 (actually not a 179) was the TOMS01 (number 1) clip out of the bunch. In Craigs mind, that is hands down his favorite tom mic that we shotout, so maybe it's appropriate that it's #1. That make any sense?? It's late.......

When Craig notated "hands down", I think that meant there was absolutely no question or doubt about which was best in his mind. That that mic far exceeded all the others. You'll note he only said that about the toms and snare mic's.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by beebay007

Why does snare 4 win? I don't like it

Well, it wins for Craig. Not for you or I perhaps. It's the most natural sounding to Craig. Also, he likes the way it minimizes the ring of the snare and has a natural sound.

Natural is not always best, but I think Craig is wearing his drummers hat when listening to these. By the time it gets into the track, he might change his mind.

BUT, the thing I learned in all of this is that hardly ANY of these mics sucked. They could all work with a little placement and EQ in the RIGHT song.

And yeah, the 57 is a respectable mic on a lot of stuff. I've seen guys mic entire kits with them. I wouldn't do it, but what do I know......

[warhead]

Originally Posted by drBill

War, I think you're reading that wrong. The CAD M177 (actually not a 179) was the TOMS01 (number 1) clip out of the bunch. In Craigs mind, that is hands down his favorite tom mic that we shotout, so maybe it's appropriate that it's #1. That make any sense?? It's late.......

When Craig notated "hands down", I think that meant there was absolutely no question or doubt about which was best in his mind. That that mic far exceeded all the others. You'll note he only said that about the toms and snare mic's.

I read M179 above and figured those were old, discontinue M177 prices you were quoting! The M179 is of course the multi-pattern version of the same mic.

I still use them 100% of the time on toms, just got done using them again tonight...

War thumbsup

[drBill]

Originally Posted by warhead

I read M179 above and figured those were old, discontinue M177 prices you were quoting! The M179 is of course the multi-pattern version of the same mic.

I still use them 100% of the time on toms, just got done using them again tonight...

War thumbsup

Yeah, sorry for the confusion. Craig and I have talked and he knows the 177's aren't available anymore. The 179's are better anyway. And just for the record, the prices I quoted were for 179's! thumbsup

cheers,

bp

[AnthonyRochester]

I didn't so much like the way 421's sound on toms when solo'd but they sound tough in combination with the other mics, and that's what its all about.

[junior]

Wow...

So here's what I picked (in order of pref):

Kick - SM57
FOK - AM62, Sputnik
Snare - KM84, AM62, i5, MXL 604
HH - KM84, C451E
Toms - M177, MXL 604, i5
OH - MXL V69, M71S, Sputnik
Room - Sputnik, M71S

Surprises for me:
1. that I liked the sound of the condensers on close drums over most of the dynamics.
2. that the 635A hung in there so well.
3. that it looks like I'll be buyings some M-audio and MXL mics in my near future.
4. that the Beta 52 sounded so BAD to me.
5. that I chose the sound of LDs over SDs on overheads.

Great work, guys - VERY revealing for me.

[drBill]

Junior - you bought those CAD's yet????

When you say the Beta52 sounds "bad". You mean bad/good or bad/bad???

Just wondering cause I really like that mic.


BTW, on your top Tom pics, I actually bought 3 of each of those sets 177/603-4/i5 for UNDER $500 for 9 mics!!!!!!!

[drBill]

Originally Posted by junior

Surprises for me:
1. that I liked the sound of the condensers on close drums over most of the dynamics.
2. that the 635A hung in there so well.
3. that it looks like I'll be buyings some M-audio and MXL mics in my near future.
4. that the Beta 52 sounded so BAD to me.
5. that I chose the sound of LDs over SDs on overheads.

Great work, guys - VERY revealing for me.

Love that!!!! Thx.

bp

[drBill]

Originally Posted by beebay007

I didn't so much like the way 421's sound on toms when solo'd but they sound tough in combination with the other mics, and that's what its all about.

That's cool. I was actually surprised that they didn't do better in the comparisons. Not enough stick definition for me personally. During normal tracking, I love the tone, but the off-axis bleed is kinda ugly for me, and I always have to EQ in some "stick". I usually end up gating them. HOWEVER, their tone now has me wondering about the Gefell M71's or CAD's on the top of the toms, and the 421's on the bottom resonant head. THAT I think would be the all-time be-all end-all tom sound.

[junior]

Originally Posted by drBill

Junior - you bought those CAD's yet????

Funny you should ask! I just picked up a used one for cheap. Gotta' find a few more now.

Originally Posted by drBill

When you say the Beta52 sounds "bad". You mean bad/good or bad/bad???

Just wondering cause I really like that mic.

I don't know why, but that was one of the only sounds that really irked me. Didn't like it all. Diffrent strokes, I guess.

Originally Posted by drBill

BTW, on your top Tom pics, I actually bought 3 of each of those sets 177/603-4/i5 for UNDER $500 for 9 mics!!!!!!!

That's actually really good news. Especially considering the other mics I liked are a bit more expensive. thumbsup