Impromptu SDC Shootout ( Including KM69 )

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Jam

Kev Bent at Unity Audio supplied the KM69 and the Nuemann 184 is mine.

Thanks James.

WOW! Is all I can say. Unless as was stated before, they are accidentally mis-labled,I will NEVER be putting up a KM69. Hated the way it sounded. It only took about two seconds to know for sure.

I don't know what Mercenary is talking about. It sounds nothing like the original KM84.

That really surprised me.

bp

[Jam]

Hi All

In answer to the mislabelling question, I'm confident that they're all labelled correctly.

The KM184 has this "mush" in the mids that I don't like and the KM69 on that guitar doesn't do the tops much of a favour.

My Lowden isn't the most present in the bass and that must be taken in to account.

My conclusion was I haven't found the SDC for acoustic guitar I'm looking for. Which is a bummer as I already own the KM184s.

Do yourself a favour if you're interested in the KM69 and get one in on demo they are certainly worthy of your attention but ( and if we're honest we all know this ) there is no magic bullet.

James

[lostinmusic]

Originally Posted by Jam

My conclusion was I haven't found the SDC for acoustic guitar I'm looking for. Which is a bummer as I already own the KM184s.

If it's of any help, I've been in a similar spot to you. I record quite a bit of acoustic and had been using the KM184. I never really loved it, it was just a case of it doing a better job than the competition. The Gefell M300, the Beyer 930 etc all very nice mics in their different ways but seemed too bright to me.

I had the KM69 for a while and even though I ended up selling it on it definitely sounded better than it does on some of these files. It made me think that maybe there's a far better preamp match for it. Also, the KM184, to my ears, works really well with the Pacifica. Now I know that none of this should matter that much - an original KM84 isn't a fussy mic - but for the majority of these mics it seems to.

So in the end, I was just about to buy some overpriced, knocked about KM84s when I happened to audition a Pearlman TM1. I thought I was going to cry... there it was! Job done. I hooked it up to a Great River and it's never been unplugged since. Sounds awesome on everything actually. Maybe you'll think the same..?

[Jam]

Lostinmusic

Thanks for the tip !!

Did you manage to get a Pearlman TM1 in on demo or did you just take the plunge ? Also isn't it an LDC ?

Unfortunately I won't spend that kind of money without hearing things first and as a UK resident that's not always easy !!

Also the last files were recorded through an A-designs P1, which I've always understood to be the "500 series Pacifica" so maybe that helped the 184 out !!

I haven't heard the Beyers but they're on my list to audition.

On the KM69 I had it here for a couple of weeks and tried in various situations and I totally agree with what you're saying. It definitely sounded better with some sources than others but that's what I expected.

I should also point in fairness that I've heard my 184s sound better than they do in the above clips but that's shout outs, everything is equally compromised !!

The other thing on my list is the new Telefunken USA tube SDCs ( can't remember the number ) as I've heard good things about them.

James

[lostinmusic]

Originally Posted by Jam

Did you manage to get a Pearlman TM1 in on demo or did you just take the plunge ? Also isn't it an LDC ?

Unfortunately I won't spend that kind of money without hearing things first and as a UK resident that's not always easy !!

Yes, it's a LDC. Contact Pearlman and they'll put you in touch with their German distributor. The deal was, if I didn't keep it I would have had to pay the return shipping - seemed reasonable to me.

I think it's the tube that does something for me. I've also got a Sebatron pre here and it seems to do wonders for the KM184. Another 'affordable' tube LDC is the Peluso short body 2247 which is another great all-rounder but I definitely prefer the Pearlman.

Neil.

[Jam]

Thanks Neil

I'll have an investigate.

James

[lostinmusic]

James - I just checked your website. Sorry, but I can't recommend you trying a TM1 when you've already got a U47 and a fet47..! If these aren't already giving you some good acoustic colours then maybe your style's more a vintage KM84?

[meldar produxshu]

i wish this was done using a guitar that didnt sound like pins and needles. you can dress up a pig...MARTIN next time !!!!

[Jam]

Originally Posted by lostinmusic

James - I just checked your website. Sorry, but I can't recommend you trying a TM1 when you've already got a U47 and a fet47..! If these aren't already giving you some good acoustic colours then maybe your style's more a vintage KM84?

Hi Neil

I've got a couple of good LDCs as you've discovered which is why I'm leaning towards a new SDC. That said this is Gearslutz so I appreciate the suggestion !!

I'm comfortable with the acoustic sound I get off the LDCs ( most often the U47 ) but I tend towards a LDC for solo, upfront acoustic or finger picking parts. My current quest is a SDC that sits well in a dense mix without sounding like crap when playing on it's own.

Sometimes I just automate the EQ but I'd rather have the option to capture at source.


James

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Jam

there is no magic bullet.

James

There is for me, and it's called a vintage KM84. I just picked up a third for $800. In fairly decent shape as well.

When the 84 doesn't do it, I know that a Gefell M70/692 most likely will, and if that fails and I need something uber-bright, a 451E does the trick.

That said, I occationally fall back on a U87 as well. For certain AC guitars and one very dry sounding nylon, it's just the ticket. Why can't anyone build decent new SDC mics?!?!?!? At least some that are reasonably (under 1KUS) priced?

[Jam]

Originally Posted by drBill

There is for me, and it's called a vintage KM84. I just picked up a third for $800. In fairly decent shape as well.

When the 84 doesn't do it, I know that a Gefell M70/692 most likely will, and if that fails and I need something uber-bright, a 451E does the trick.

That said, I occationally fall back on a U87 as well. For certain AC guitars and one very dry sounding nylon, it's just the ticket. Why can't anyone build decent new SDC mics?!?!?!? At least some that are reasonably (under 1KUS) priced?

DrBill

Did you just say " there is a magic bullet " and then go on to list three more mics ?

All joking aside I suspect you're right and a good Km84 is what I'm looking for. But like you I also want options so I'll keep trying.

James

[peeder]

Six inches from the soundhole is too close to neutralize placement effects on an acoustic. You would have had to rotate the placements through a set of recordings to really nail what was the mic and what was the placement. Placement is nearly everything on acoustic guitar.

Thanks for the shootout.

[Jam]

Originally Posted by Jam

but that's shout outs, everything is equally compromised !!

Thanks Peeder

I was at pains to point that out but it is a notion that is worth reiterating !!

My idea ( fwiw ) with shout-outs is to give an outline impression and to keep encouraging people ( me included ) to try different gear in different situations. I think it's the only way to develop your sonic " palate "

Also if you're in the UK ( which I am ) it's much harder to get to hear the " boutique " gear, so these shout-outs are a poor but necessary substitute.

James

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Jam

DrBill

Did you just say " there is a magic bullet " and then go on to list three more mics ?

LOL

yes, I DID say that didn't I?? 97% of the time the 84's get it. But this is gearslutz, and sometimes I'd rather slap up another mic than patch in an EQ. Just because I got em damn it!!! I gotta use em or they'll start to feel lonely.

Obviously I wasn't there and don't know what your guitar actually sounds like with my own ears, but I'd be pretty confident in saying that the 84 would be much better than any of the mics I heard in your test. If you were in LA, I'd bring one over for you to check out. I just picked up #3 here on GS last week. (I wanted 3 for string quartets so I could use 84's on Vln, Vln, Vla and an M71 or U87 on Cello.) Check out a KM84. It will be well worth your time and effort. The only other mic's I'd maybe prefer would be a KM86 (multi pattern 84 - more versatile w/the same sound) and a KM54 - basically a tube powered older vintage 84.

For Ac Gtr, if all I had was an 84, I'd be OK. I'd even be OK with Gefell's, but not quite as OK.....

Cheers,

bp

Hey, don't forget this is gearslutz!!! More is MORE!!!

[Rick Sutton]

Originally Posted by drBill

97% of the time the 84's get it.

KM54 - basically a tube powered older vintage 84.

drBill,
I agree with you whole heartedly about the km84's. I am the lucky owner of 4 consecutive serial # beauties that I love for many applications.
A small clarification on the km54. It is a nickel capsule tube (AC701) mic that is similar in application to the 84 but the actual tube predecessor to the km84 is the km64 whick afaik uses the same mylar capsule as the 84 but with a tube amp (AC701).
The km54 is a wonderful mic as is it's cousin the km56 which is I use regularly for acoustic guitar.
Cheers,
Rick

[FossilTooth]

Originally Posted by drBill

Thanks James.

WOW! Is all I can say. Unless as was stated before, they are accidentally mis-labled,I will NEVER be putting up a KM69. Hated the way it sounded. It only took about two seconds to know for sure.

I don't know what Mercenary is talking about. It sounds nothing like the original KM84.

That really surprised me.

bp

Agreed. Something's fishy! Either:

A) The mic isn't working properly
B) The placement is different between the two
C) The guys at Mercenary are a bunch of big fat liars who don't know what they're doing.

Although I've never dealt with Mercenary myself, from all the positive customer feedback I've seen here, they seem like reliable and trustworthy guys who really listen. I'd venture to give them the benefit of the doubt until I try one myself, or hear more of the same from additional sources.

Originally Posted by Jam

My conclusion was I haven't found the SDC for acoustic guitar I'm looking for.

James, thanks for all your hard work and effort in doing this shootout.

However, based on these clips, I'd look elsewhere first. No offense to whomever is playing it, but the guitar doesn't sound "great" in any of the clips. I don't think it's all about the mic in this particular case.

I'd look into the sound of the instrument, the player's touch, placement, and the sound of the room before buying anymore SDCs. That octopre ain't helping either. Although I'm not a huge fan of the KM184 myself, they're good mics. I do believe that they definitely can sound a bit better than this if you spend some energy on other factors.

Good luck!

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Rick Sutton

drBill,
I agree with you whole heartedly about the km84's. I am the lucky owner of 4 consecutive serial # beauties that I love for many applications.
A small clarification on the km54. It is a nickel capsule tube (AC701) mic that is similar in application to the 84 but the actual tube predecessor to the km84 is the km64 whick afaik uses the same mylar capsule as the 84 but with a tube amp (AC701).
The km54 is a wonderful mic as is it's cousin the km56 which is I use regularly for acoustic guitar.
Cheers,
Rick

Rick - thanks! I stand corrected!!! As for your sequential KM84's........I HATE you!!! j/k I had a chance to pick up a pair of honestly UNUSED KM84's recently. 30 years old and never used - and I could verify that. Unfortunately, the guy just wanted too much for them, and was not willing to plug them in and let them stay powered up for a couple of days, so I decided I didn't need them THAT bad. The 54 sounds like an early cousin to my Gefell M70/692's. I love the "vibe" of the nickel cap on those and would really like to check out a 56 sometime........ Probably not in this lifetime though with the way vintage tube mics are skyrocketing in price.

[whitepapagold]

KM84s just sound so familiar on acoustic, I absolutely love them. An eq easily cures any issues IMHO. And there is just something about how they sound in the mids... I don't hate the 184 though. Funny, I chose #2 but I bet thats again cause its familiar.

Thanks for the shoot out. #1 was my least favorite- could the Mercenary really sound that bad relatively? I didn't jump out for the samples on their site either.

[tnjazz]

Originally Posted by drBill

Why can't anyone build decent new SDC mics?!?!?!? At least some that are reasonably (under 1KUS) priced?

You mean like the beyerdynamic MC930 ?

[drBill]

Originally Posted by whitepapagold

Thanks for the shoot out. #1 was my least favorite- could the Mercenary really sound that bad relatively? I didn't jump out for the samples on their site either.

Yeah, and after all the hoopla and hype that fletcher threw down about it being identical, only better than an 84.

[whitepapagold]

Originally Posted by drBill

Yeah, and after all the hoopla and hype that fletcher threw down about it being identical, only better than an 84.

Well sadly Fletchers inner gear pimp has unquestionably overtaken his integrity... He would argue different Im sure but after years on this site, I just have trouble stomaching half the BS he spits out nowadays. Its obvious his motivation has changed and his whole attitude towards prosumers has changed (nicer) to sell more gear. The guys whos famous for "If you want to sound like "gear X" you MUST BUY "gear X"- imitators are only that." Blah blah blah... Yet he has piggybacked the KM84s history/quality like a ***** for the KM69. I guess all those "if you want a pultec sound you MUST get a pultec" posts were just a bunch of BS... And Chinese imitators work just fine.

But then again are we really trying to compare a chinese capsule to a German one with the pedigree of the KM84?

[drBill]

Originally Posted by whitepapagold

But then again are we really trying to compare a chinese capsule to a German one with the pedigree of the KM84?

Indeed. The 84 is a classic, destined to never be cloned. That's why I just picked up a third 84.

[JazzPipo]

In the KM69 vs KM184 strumming samples... I much prefer the KM184.

Much warmer and balanced. Although I could imagine the KM69 cutting better through a loud mix.

By the way nice guitar... I had the a guitarist recently with a very nice Martin acoustic... If I had the money I'd buy one instanly.

[whitepapagold]

Originally Posted by drBill

Indeed. The 84 is a classic, destined to never be cloned. That's why I just picked up a third 84.

Yeah well Im the idiot who just WAY overpaid for a Mint pair of Telefunken M280n (KM84s no pad)! BUT they sound incredible and actually are in MINT condition. Zero regrets.

I seriously looked into the KM69 before blowing stoopid vintage cash but it was not even close... And there are better mics than the KM84 but it sounds like I expect and thats worth gold trackingwise... The KM69 is 100% mojo free and not in a wonderfully transparent way. I never got past the sound samples- and MANY have been posted- especially here. If I can hear the difference in quality via MP3 consistently, that can't be a good thing. MP3s are terrible for decision making but in this case, time and time again, it sounded blah and I could pick out the mids on the KM84 and even the KM184.

Gearpimpdom has taken over on Gearslutz. I even see Fletcher pimping on Harmony-central- the home studio/prosumer mecca... Jeeze

[warhead]

Originally Posted by tnjazz

You mean like the beyerdynamic MC930 ?

Don't forget the Oktava MK-012 at half that price also...serious mic on any budget.

War