Toft ATB vs Trident 8T : audio samples

[Backhousepro]

I think both consoles do a remarkable job for the price point. I believe whoever said that choice depends on the type of music you wish to do is correct. Personally, for my work, the sound of console A would be a better choice. While console B did seem to add more heft to the mids and low mids, that would become an issue with the large-scale compositions that I do—far too much low mid information. Also, in the mix buss examples, console A had more clarity and definition. I could hear vocals and center-panned instruments more clearly. Console B had more of that midrange speaker-chugging sound on the guitars. In fact, to my ears, that made guitars overwhelm the mix. Also, there was more ringing on the floor tom, which also contributed to more low-mid heft. If you feel that this is where your music lives, then by all means, go for console B.

I also noticed some bias in the performances. For example, the guitar in example A were played more on the upper strings than on example B, where there was more attack on the lower strings. Despite that, objectively, I would still say that console B did have more information in the mid to low-mid range and the guitar recorded at 3 ft sounded closer and more full. Also, the the snare was performed differently on each example. I heard a much more confident performance on example B. Overall, I'd say all of the performances on console B were performed with more confidence and authority, as though the performer wanted B to win the shootout. I'll voice another opinion; punch is more in the music than the console. When the snare on example A was hit with authority, there was enough punch. I felt as though I was hearing the snare more naturally, as opposed to having a little boost from the console. Also, the low-mid emphasis of console B made the snare sound a tad mushy during softer hits.

Ultimately for me, this is a tough call. I liked the sound that console B imparted to individual instruments, but I'm looking for a mixer, not a preamp. And while I'd love to say I own a Trident, I'll have to go with console A (I'm assuming that A is the ATB). I'd expect more contrast and separation between instruments in a busy mix. From a practical standpoint alone, the additional I/O makes it a better choice for me. (I emphasize, for me). Again, I think both consoles hold their own quite well — who knows maybe one day Toft and Oram can peacefully co-exist.

Cheers, and thanks for all your hard work Ciozzi,

-B-

[alanhyatt]

Originally Posted by ralphski

Anyone know where the best shop to try a Toft ATB is in London??? (preferably South).


I will be trying a Trident with them in Kent early next week...

Studiocare Professional
Unit 9 Century Building
Summers Road
Brunswick Business Park
Liverpool L3 4BL
+44 (0)151 236 7800
ATTM: Rick Whalley

Rick has a console in London. They bring it to your room and let you try it. That is the best way to test a console. I would call them as they are very helpful, very knowledgeable, and offer the best way to try a Toft ATB

We can show you one in our facility, but doing that is a bit biased...our room! You are best to do this with Studiocare. I know they will assist you properly. Give them a call...

You can buy them at Turnkey, and Digital Village, but they only order it when they sell one, but they have sold quite a bit. I say stay with Studiocare...

[Ciozzi]

Originally Posted by Dirty Halo

Just for my better understanding, how is it that you have the ability to have, borrow, or own both consoles to do this comparison? What was the general context of this situation?

As for dealers making comments, I too have a problem when it starts to sound like pimping, but it seemed Mr. Oram AND Trident posted without comment, but when PMI posted, there was an admonishment. tutt

Lastly I find it odd that by post #69/71 people are generally saying, they are so close, it really comes down to personal preference (this is BEFORE anyone knows what is what) and yet in another thread, people proclaim a winner... Odd

Anyway, please Ciozzo, thanks for your time and providing the "Story" behind all this would give me helpful context>

-andrews

Fair question.

I bought the Trident 8T a few months ago for my personal studio. It was a tough call cause I didn't have the chance to try it and I relied on the few comments available on this forum. At the time the ATB was among the options, but sadly there were no italian distributors and I decided to go for the 8T.

In december 2007, I was hired by my city hall to arrange a little recording facility. We decided to go analog, with a console and some outboard. This time I contacted Alan at PMI audio who told me they had found a distributor. The distributor had an ATB24 in stock and since time was a big concern (I had waited for 5 months to have the 8T), it was a no brainer, we went for the the ATB.

After the consulting work I was hired as a recording tech as well. This is the only reason why I have access to both consoles, I'm not a seller nor a manufacturer.

Having worked extensively on both, I'm surprised that a lot of people said that they sound similar. Even if I didn't try them in the same place ,from the first time I put my hands on the ATB I felt there was a substantial difference. In addition consider that every sound module (eq, preamp, summing) in each console leads you toward a different sound. I have some mixes made on both consoles and I am amazed by the difference.

The main reason for doing this test is obvious (at leat for me). Having the chance to use both I wanted to know exactly each one's sound compared with the other.

Recording the samples and posting them was the consequence

I hope I answered your question!

[Ciozzi]

Originally Posted by Backhousepro

I also noticed some bias in the performances. For example, the guitar in example A were played more on the upper strings than on example B, where there was more attack on the lower strings. Despite that, objectively, I would still say that console B did have more information in the mid to low-mid range and the guitar recorded at 3 ft sounded closer and more full. Also, the the snare was performed differently on each example. I heard a much more confident performance on example B. Overall, I'd say all of the performances on console B were performed with more confidence and authority, as though the performer wanted B to win the shootout. I'll voice another opinion; punch is more in the music than the console. When the snare on example A was hit with authority, there was enough punch. I felt as though I was hearing the snare more naturally, as opposed to having a little boost from the console. Also, the low-mid emphasis of console B made the snare sound a tad mushy during softer hits.


Cheers, and thanks for all your hard work Ciozzi,

-B-

In the beginning I noticed the same thing about the guitar parts, and I was surprised cause I'm a guitar player and I was shure I had played the riff the same way both times.

Since I didn't want to bias the test, I rerecorded the samples and guess what... ?!? I ended up with the same result again. That difference doesn't come from the performance but from the preamp. You should really try them to have an idea!

As for the snare test, I'm sorry guys but I'm not a drummer. At the 10th take I gave up and chose the one that sounded better

[Ciozzi]

Originally Posted by alanhyatt

Studiocare Professional
Unit 9 Century Building
Summers Road
Brunswick Business Park
Liverpool L3 4BL
+44 (0)151 236 7800
ATTM: Rick Whalley

Rick has a console in London. They bring it to your room and let you try it. That is the best way to test a console. I would call them as they are very helpful, very knowledgeable, and offer the best way to try a Toft ATB

We can show you one in our facility, but doing that is a bit biased...our room! You are best to do this with Studiocare. I know they will assist you properly. Give them a call...

You can buy them at Turnkey, and Digital Village, but they only order it when they sell one, but they have sold quite a bit. I say stay with Studiocare...

Thank you for not briging the argument on. I really appreciate that! thumbsup

[Hamburg58]

Well shucks! I really loved B. I can't afford it. I was hoping it was going to be an ATB >

[CKK]

At Funky Junk France - Vente et Achat Occasion Audio Pro - Musique et Production / Used audio pro equipment sales for studios - Music and Production

Trident 8T - 16 channels = 2990 euro
Toft ATB - 16 channels = 3150 euro

But when you go for 24 channels, the coin flips in favor of the ATB.

[Ciozzi]

Originally Posted by CKK

At Funky Junk France - Vente et Achat Occasion Audio Pro - Musique et Production / Used audio pro equipment sales for studios - Music and Production

Trident 8T - 16 channels = 2990 euro
Toft ATB - 16 channels = 3150 euro

But when you go for 24 channels, the coin flips in favor of the ATB.

Do the prices include the shipping ? That could make a huge difference!

[jeronimo]

What about Trident prices in the US?

[JB872]

Originally Posted by jeronimo

What about Trident prices in the US?

I'd like to know this as well.

[alanhyatt]

Originally Posted by CKK

At Funky Junk France - Vente et Achat Occasion Audio Pro - Musique et Production / Used audio pro equipment sales for studios - Music and Production

Trident 8T - 16 channels = 2990 euro
Toft ATB - 16 channels = 3150 euro

But when you go for 24 channels, the coin flips in favor of the ATB.

The ATB-16 is actually 3,299.99 EURO. This is with the new faders we recently employed. The old faders were Sellmark. They felt a bit stiff, and had some issues. We wanted to use them as that was the fader used on the original Trident Series 80B. Malcolm had used them for some time, but with ROHS approved solder, the Sellmarks became unreliable after time as the higher heat distorted the plastic shield on the crimp, which sometimes then failed.

The new faders feel like P&G's(almost) They are very good as well, so the price went up based on our using much more expensive faders....

Prices vary from dealer to dealer in both the USA and EU...so you need to check.

[CKK]

Originally Posted by jeronimo

What about Trident prices in the US?

Mail John and ask him how, and how much. He should be able to guide you guys in the right direction.

[ORAM]

Trident products are Made in England and we base our pricing on £GBP so when we sell around the world, we apply the exchange rate at the time of the transaction.
When the US dollar is at $1.70 to the pound (GBP) a product costing £3,000 is sold for $5100. Currently the USD is at $1.98 so the product costs $5940 in the USA. Freight is charged at the best rate we can get at the time and is charged at cost. This is not a profit centre for us.

The price of an 8T-16 mentioned earlier by CKK at 2990 euro has now gone down due to the euro getting stronger so it now costs 2,755 euro so you see it works both ways. Whether the Toft company change their prices, I really don't know.

For information:-
TRIDENT 8T-16 costs £1,999 GBP
TRIDENT 8T-24 costs £2,999 GBP
TRIDENT 8T-32 costs £3,999 GBP

According to Sound on Sound magazine last month:-
ATB-16 is £2585
ATB-24 is £3877.50
ATB-32 is £5169.98

Hope this makes sense.

BTW, Ralphski came to my studio yesterday and demo'd the Series 8T and bought it. Thank you and welcome to Trident.

JOHN ORAM
TRIDENT AUDIO LTD.,

[kingofswing]

Originally Posted by Trident Audio

Trident products are Made in England and we base our pricing on £GBP so when we sell around the world, we apply the exchange rate at the time of the transaction.
When the US dollar is at $1.70 to the pound (GBP) a product costing £3,000 is sold for $5100. Currently the USD is at $1.98 so the product costs $5940 in the USA. Freight is charged at the best rate we can get at the time and is charged at cost. This is not a profit centre for us.

The price of an 8T-16 mentioned earlier by CKK at 2990 euro has now gone down due to the euro getting stronger so it now costs 2,755 euro so you see it works both ways. Whether the Toft company change their prices, I really don't know.

For information:-
TRIDENT 8T-16 costs £1,999 GBP
TRIDENT 8T-24 costs £2,999 GBP
TRIDENT 8T-32 costs £3,999 GBP

According to Sound on Sound magazine last month:-
ATB-16 is £2585
ATB-24 is £3877.50
ATB-32 is £5169.98

Hope this makes sense.

JOHN ORAM
TRIDENT AUDIO LTD.,

Hi John,

You may have missed my post, but are you looking to improve the described wobbly pots on the 8T desks as mentioned here? I would like to see an improvement on this, as i am looking to make a purchase very soon. Just the thought of buying a desk with crippled pots makes me a little nervous.

Thank you.

[ORAM]

The "wobbly" pots are called "fleximount" and are designed to decouple the shaft from the element of the potentiometer. They are great for mobile products and withstand impact better than solid shaft / bush assemblies. They are perfect for robotic assembly that we use for this product. We have fitted thousands and they are totally reliable.
Because of the adverse opinion about feel we introduced a neoprene o ring and washer that reduces the flex by about 75%.
We have an all metal shaft option coming available this next quarter and we will run tests in the field for the mobile guys. I hope they have the required durability and are as good as fleximounts.
A lot of our Series 8T's have gone to location applications, live sound, film etc., where rough environments need these parts. All our large console series have all metal shafts which are made in our own factory to our design.
Naturally, due to the very low cost of the Series 8T some of them have been bought for small studio use and I agree the feel may not be what engineers are used to in that application.
Again, choice is good.

JWO

[Ciozzi]

Originally Posted by Trident Audio

Trident products are Made in England and we base our pricing on £GBP so when we sell around the world, we apply the exchange rate at the time of the transaction.
When the US dollar is at $1.70 to the pound (GBP) a product costing £3,000 is sold for $5100. Currently the USD is at $1.98 so the product costs $5940 in the USA. Freight is charged at the best rate we can get at the time and is charged at cost. This is not a profit centre for us.

The price of an 8T-16 mentioned earlier by CKK at 2990 euro has now gone down due to the euro getting stronger so it now costs 2,755 euro so you see it works both ways. Whether the Toft company change their prices, I really don't know.

For information:-
TRIDENT 8T-16 costs £1,999 GBP
TRIDENT 8T-24 costs £2,999 GBP
TRIDENT 8T-32 costs £3,999 GBP

According to Sound on Sound magazine last month:-
ATB-16 is £2585
ATB-24 is £3877.50
ATB-32 is £5169.98

Hope this makes sense.

BTW, Ralphski came to my studio yesterday and demo'd the Series 8T and bought it. Thank you and welcome to Trident.

JOHN ORAM
TRIDENT AUDIO LTD.,

I saw on the oram website that you've got a customised version of the 8T, with the "original series 80 chipset" .

Is that mod available on stock consoles too ? What's the difference between the stock chipset and the "original" one ?

[kingofswing]

Originally Posted by Trident Audio

The "wobbly" pots are called "fleximount" and are designed to decouple the shaft from the element of the potentiometer. They are great for mobile products and withstand impact better than solid shaft / bush assemblies. They are perfect for robotic assembly that we use for this product. We have fitted thousands and they are totally reliable.
Because of the adverse opinion about feel we introduced a neoprene o ring and washer that reduces the flex by about 75%.
We have an all metal shaft option coming available this next quarter and we will run tests in the field for the mobile guys. I hope they have the required durability and are as good as fleximounts.
A lot of our Series 8T's have gone to location applications, live sound, film etc., where rough environments need these parts. All our large console series have all metal shafts which are made in our own factory to our design.
Naturally, due to the very low cost of the Series 8T some of them have been bought for small studio use and I agree the feel may not be what engineers are used to in that application.
Again, choice is good.

JWO

Thanks for your reply John. So i take it that you are now using this neoprene o ring and washer as standard on the desks?

Also i was under the impression that the 8T was more of a studio mixer than a live one, no? On your website all the 8T user pics are of studios.

Would like to know on this series 80 mod too.

Cheers.

[ORAM]

This version was custom built for Roy Thomas Baker (RTB) who was an original Trident recording engineer with a discography to die for. (I mention that as some of the younger 'slutz may not know what incredible work he has done). He came to our place and discussed his requirements and I built this version for him. It has aluminium knobs to his specification, a meterbridge as standard and the original chipset used in my design of the 70s. One of the main sonic features of the Series 80 was its headroom and to get that as high as possible those early boards were powered with 20 volt rails. I worked with Texas Instruments at the time developing better audio chips. The Fleximix was my first board design and also one of the first boards to use op amps. At that time the 741 was the industry standard. I found they could batch select this product with a much higher slew rate. Called the 741S it made audio with opamps a realistic fact. In further discussions improvements were made that resulted in a J-Fet front end and more beefy output stage and the TL series was born. Trident had its own part number, but the rest of the world got the TL080 series (later TL070 lower noise selection).
Anyway, back to headroom: to be safe with the 20 volt rails the chips were supplied with 22 volt rail selection that was virtually MIL spec.
These are fitted in the RTB version and the headroom goes on for days, to quote one of our pro users!
Hope this makes sense and again, very well done in conducting your comparison tests and fielding some of the sideswipes.

JOHN ORAM

[SeanBlack]

Just got this email today...

DELETED BY MODERATOR - reproduction of private / business emails is not allowed and is bad "netiquette"

[TAVD]

Does all the BS make anyone else wish they'd just bought a Ghost instead?

[Geoff_T]

Originally Posted by TAVD

Does all the BS make anyone else wish they'd just bought a Ghost instead?

Hi

I'm amazed that the moderator hasn't stepped in and locked the thread so that it doesn't become a never-ending advertisement.

That's what the links in the signature are normally adequate for...

[heyman]

"just 18% of the listeners
actually stated a general preference for Console A (the Toft), while a
landslide 82% of the audience stated that they preferred Console B, the
Trident 8T. "


Wow, Rob.... I dont think I would have been able to put those numbers togther without your help...


Thank you for the pie charts ...

Is this your way of using Leverage over the Toft board..?? I appreciate Ciozzi's efforts and I happen to like bits of both boards. I also think that more testing needs to be done.

I dont appreciate the fact that you are taking his results and turning it into a shameless plug for your business. One more reason your name and business will never see dime one from me. Oh, and I will make sure to tell my freinds as well. dfegad

People in this forum are intelligent enough to figure these things out. Way to Shit all over any positive feedback for John Oram/Trident.


...

[asagaai]

Well, I preferred the snare/vocals and mix of the Oram Board. The mix especially had a little extra depth. I was thinking about rolling for a Toft-but I really like the sonics of the pommie board.....

The Oram sounds like a great board, now if they could sort out the plastic pots, tone down the banter about lawsuits (sorta freaks me out thinking about entering into a contract with an organisation that carries on about lawsuits) and develop perhaps a tad of dignity -I would think they would sell a heap more of their boards.

All this is a shame, because J Oram obviously has made a great board.

GJ
Newcastle OZ

[JB872]

Originally Posted by Ciozzi

Do the prices include the shipping ? That could make a huge difference!

I emailed Rob regarding shipping to Canada, and a Trident 8T 24 will run you $1000 to $1200, not including taxes and brokerage fees.

[alanhyatt]

The price of the consoles in the UK are as follows, and not what was posted by Mr. Oram.

ATB-16 - £2,199.99
ATB-24 - £3,299.99
ATB-32 - £4,399.99

We may be a bit more than the 8T, but I think there is good reason why.

[alanhyatt]

Originally Posted by JB872

I emailed Rob regarding shipping to Canada, and a Trident 8T 24 will run you $1000 to $1200, not including taxes and brokerage fees.

JB872,

Every Trident 8T has to be paid up front and then it is built to order. It takes anywhere between 10 to 24 weeks to get it in and freight is paid by the customer all the way from the UK. The distributor in Canada does not stock any consoles, nor do any Canadian dealer.

Steve's Music and Long & McQuade sell the Toft ATB and have them in stock, so freight is not much at all. You can just go to the store and pick it up. No freight and no waiting!

Oh yeah, you can listen to it first if you want....The dealer will assist you with that.

[alanhyatt]

The story of Trident "is" well known. It was founded by Malcolm Toft. The designs were by Malcolm Toft and Barry Porter. You can see the early Trident History at

http://www.toftaudio.com/pdf/tapeop.pdf
http://www.toftaudio.com/pdf/Mtoft%2...Aug%201994.jpg
http://www.toftaudio.com/pdf/Mtoft%2...uly%201994.jpg

[alanhyatt]

Originally Posted by SeanBlack

Just got this email today...

Hello, All.


Cheers,

Rob Dewar.

To bad the majority of his facts are wrong.... Also seems a waste of time to discuss something he has no personal knowledge about....

Thanks for sharing Sean...Shows me what some folks are willing to do...

[pianodano]

Originally Posted by TAVD

Does all the BS make anyone else wish they'd just bought a Ghost instead?

Don't know about a Ghost. I received that salEmail from him (Dewar) also. I told him last year I had bought a Toft and to take me off his list. Lot of good that did. Besides, the only way I can figure to help bring the dollar up in relation to the Euro is to help create a shortage of greenbacks over there. As in, I'll keep my dollars here.

[johndykstra]

Originally Posted by Geoff_T

Hi

I'm amazed that the moderator hasn't stepped in and locked the thread so that it doesn't become a never-ending advertisement.

That's what the links in the signature are normally adequate for...

this nails it honestly...the work has been done (well) and opinions formed. the rest of this is just adfegading contest. who wouldn't be happy with either board really?