Toft ATB vs Trident 8T : audio samples

[TAVD]

Originally Posted by Ciozzi

The ATB uses last generation Burr Brown op amps, with extended frequency response and a lot of detail in the very high end. The 8T uses TL0 series chips that sound "warmer" cause of their limited response at the top end.

Interesting. I know my ATB was loaded with TL072 chips but there were also BB for mic/line amps plus one OPA2134 in the master section. Did you sum through the line inputs or the monitor returns? Unless your ATB was from the pilot program, it probably has THAT 1510 chips for the mic/line amp, which [to me] sound colder with a bump in the upper mids, compared to the BB. Now, if you summed through the monitor returns, it should all be TL072's. It's a moot point anyway since it sounds like it sounds, but the techie part of me is rather curious.

[Energie]

They both sounded somewhat similair, but different enough, but not like hugely night and day , at least through my computer speakers. My monitors may say something different. I liked them both for different reasons on different stuff. Overall, the Trident has more low end, or mid beefiness, which sounded better on some sources, but I would be happy with the Toft as well.

[kingofswing]

Originally Posted by Trident Audio

Whatever the result, this has been a lot of precise testing and Ciozzi deserves all our thanks. Having designed the original 80 circuitry in the 70s and used the same in our 8T I am no doubt interested in what you guys prefer. We were compared at the TEC Awards in the US so the result here is important.
I do have an upscaled version of our product on our drawing board to fit between the entry level price of the 8T and our more expensive consoles.

May the best board win!

JOHN ORAM
TRIDENT AUDIO LTD.,

WINNER OF 2007 TEC AWARD, SMALL FORMAT CONSOLE DESIGN
WINNER OF PAR EXCELLENCE AWARD 2007 for TRIDENT 8T-8

Dear Mr Oram,

It's great that you came onto this thread and showed your presence, thank you.

I am going to look into purchasing a small Trident desk in the near future, and the board has the right features and sonic qualities that i would need for tracking and basic mixing, etc.

The only thing left for me is the build quality aspect, the quote below from Ciozzi;

'The potentiometers on the 8T feel wiggly, and every now and then some buttons tend to get out from their housing, BTW the faders are seriously good'.

Is this something that may be improved with time or just a case of a design to meet a price point. For me the main thing is that the pots have a solid feel to them and work without feeling that they are going to break off. I have used alot cheaper mixers like the Mackie VLZ and Soundcraft M8, and they have pretty decent build with smooth pots. How about using similar pots to the Toft board as standard?

Thank you.

[Ciozzi]

Originally Posted by TAVD

Interesting. I know my ATB was loaded with TL072 chips but there were also BB for mic/line amps plus one OPA2134 in the master section. Did you sum through the line inputs or the monitor returns? Unless your ATB was from the pilot program, it probably has THAT 1510 chips for the mic/line amp, which [to me] sound colder with a bump in the upper mids, compared to the BB. Now, if you summed through the monitor returns, it should all be TL072's. It's a moot point anyway since it sounds like it sounds, but the techie part of me is rather curious.

I summed through the line inputs, and the ATB I used is 2 months old, hence not coming from the pilot program. Now I'm curious to open it and see the modules.

[Ciozzi]

Originally Posted by kingofswing

Dear Mr Oram,

It's great that you came onto this thread and showed your presence, thank you.

I am going to look into purchasing a small Trident desk in the near future, and the board has the right features and sonic qualities that i would need for tracking and basic mixing, etc.

The only thing left for me is the build quality aspect, the quote below from Ciozzi;

'The potentiometers on the 8T feel wiggly, and every now and then some buttons tend to get out from their housing, BTW the faders are seriously good'.

Is this something that may be improved with time or just a case of a design to meet a price point. For me the main thing is that the pots have a solid feel to them and work without feeling that they are going to break off. I have used alot cheaper mixers like the Mackie VLZ and Soundcraft M8, and they have pretty decent build with smooth pots. How about using similar pots to the Toft board as standard?

Thank you.

When I bought my 8T I spoke with Dave Cherry at Trident to know if it was possible to use different potentiometers. The answer was "yes" but the price for the mod was too high to make it worth it.

They suggested me to buy the metal knobs, that come with a mounting kit that is supposed to stiffen the feel, but even in this case the price to pay is high, around 500-700 euros for the 8T-16.

Truth is, once you get used to them, they are not a problem anymore and more importantly they don't affect they way you work. I have been using the 8T 6 months now and the knobs have never been an issue.

I have some planned modifications for my 8T, but the pots are not among them, not anymore!

[TAVD]

This might be a silly question but does the 8t have the pots screwed down to the metal or do they just poke through. I would imagine it's the first but I've seen some mixers that do the second and it definitely affects the feel.

Ciozzi, crack that sucker open and try some other IC's.

FWIW, I sum through the monitor returns when possible. In my half-assed initial testing, I thought the line ins colored the mix more. I didn't do anything scientific either.

[kingofswing]

Thanks for clearing Ciozzi. I would still like to see Trident make an improvement on the pots though, though i am not sure if they are surface mounted or pcb.

As for sound, i preferd console B (being the Trident) overall. It had a fatter analog sound compared to the ATB.

BTW Ciozzi, do you have the 8 channel or 16 channel 8T?

[Ciozzi]

Originally Posted by kingofswing

Thanks for clearing Ciozzi. I would still like to see Trident make an improvement on the pots though, though i am not sure if they are surface mounted or pcb.

As for sound, i preferd console B (being the Trident) overall. It had a fatter analog sound compared to the ATB.

BTW Ciozzi, do you have the 8 channel or 16 channel 8T?

I have an 8T-16 and I run out of channels almost all the times. I'm seriously thinking about buying another one.

[Snatchman]

Great job Ciozzi..! After these series of tests, I think it has proved that both consoles can get the job done. It's basically now a matter of taste and budget...thumbsup

[ralphski]

First of all, thanks for the files!

My personal preference was for the trident files, except for the guitar... I wasn't sure about the low mid end there.

I am going to go and demo and 8t for myself and see how it feels....

[alanhyatt]

I feel I need to say something here, but I do not want my words to be taken as inflammatory. I am not looking to start any flame war here...Lord knows, theres been more than enough already....This is just my opinion...everyone has one!

Malcolm Toft has his methods of designing that suit him best, so there will always be sonic differences. Which one works or sounds best to an individual is opinion based, and really can only be judged in ones own studio and room.

Malcolm chooses to use individual modules, all metal pots, and through hole components...that is his way. Mr. Oram chooses to use a single printed circuit board using surface mount technology and plastic pots...that is his way. Which one you prefer is up to you. Some like the EQ above the fader, and some at the top. Again, this is up to you.

The Toft ATB is in many dealers all over the USA and Europe who stock them. I am sure Mr. Oram has the Trident 8T in stock at many dealers in the USA and Europe as well. There you can see them side by side and see for yourself which one you prefer.

All of this is all good news and there are no winners or losers here. In fact, you all win because you all have choices in this price range of mixing consoles. Now as for where they are built, I just do not think it matters.

The Toft ATB is assembled in China. This is not a bad thing. I recently had a conversation with David Manley. David was supposed to partner with Mr. Oram on a project called DMD, but it fell apart. David told me the 8T was built in Poland at a factory owned by Mr. Oram's wife's family.

My point is where it is built just does not matter, it all comes down to the gear.

[ThomasWho]

Hi Ciozzi , thank you!!

Thank you for doing all this work and sharing it with us. I really appreciate it.

I was surprised at just how similar the two desks are , it`s obvious they are both built on the same philosophy.

For me the main difference was the mix bus. The 8T sounded more open and clear , especially in the low midrange. The drums seemed to hit with more clarity than on the Toft. It sounds like the Toft has some mud/warmth in that area. Maybe that`s why the 400Hz 12dB cut sounded better on it than on the 8T.

I can`t wait to try both for myself. thumbsup


All in all a very informative listen , thanks again Mr. Ciozzi! thumbsup thumbsup

Thomas

[Ciozzi]

Originally Posted by TAVD

This might be a silly question but does the 8t have the pots screwed down to the metal or do they just poke through. I would imagine it's the first but I've seen some mixers that do the second and it definitely affects the feel.

Ciozzi, crack that sucker open and try some other IC's.

FWIW, I sum through the monitor returns when possible. In my half-assed initial testing, I thought the line ins colored the mix more. I didn't do anything scientific either.

The pots are NOT screwed down to the metal, just soldered to the main circuit. Maybe that's the reason why they don't feel solid.

[Ciozzi]

Originally Posted by alanhyatt

Malcolm chooses to use individual modules, all metal pots, and through hole components...that is his way. Mr. Oram chooses to use a single printed circuit board using surface mount technology and plastic pots...that is his way.

David was supposed to partner with Mr. Oram on a project called DMD, but it fell apart. David told me the 8T was built in Poland at a factory owned by Mr. Oram's wife's family.

Yeah, you don't want to go into an argument, but your post is a good very starting point.

I think I've made a fair comparison, I didn't even express my opinions to be as objective as possible. I think it's time that you manufacturers let the people talk without the need to defend yourself, cause no one was attacking you.

You think you make a good product? with a good customer support ? Then... you've got nothing to fear.

[Ciozzi]

Originally Posted by ThomasWho

Hi Ciozzi , thank you!!

Thank you for doing all this work and sharing it with us. I really appreciate it.

I was surprised at just how similar the two desks are , it`s obvious they are both built on the same philosophy.

For me the main difference was the mix bus. The 8T sounded more open and clear , especially in the low midrange. The drums seemed to hit with more clarity than on the Toft. It sounds like the Toft has some mud/warmth in that area. Maybe that`s why the 400Hz 12dB cut sounded better on it than on the 8T.

I can`t wait to try both for myself. thumbsup


All in all a very informative listen , thanks again Mr. Ciozzi! thumbsup thumbsup

Thomas

I'm glad I did something that's been helpful for you guys. BTW, the best way to evaluate is to try them yourself. The sound of a console it's not only about the preamp, the eq's and the summing though, it's the interaction and the way they play with each other that gives you the final result.

Hence I have to agree with Alan, if you wanna be shure about which one's best for your needs, you have to try both.

[ralphski]

Originally Posted by Ciozzi

Hence I have to agree with Alan, if you wanna be shure about which one's best for your needs, you have to try both.

Anyone know where the best shop to try a Toft ATB is in London??? (preferably South).


I will be trying a Trident with them in Kent early next week...

[zoink]

Originally Posted by ralphski

Anyone know where the best shop to try a Toft ATB is in London??? (preferably South).


I will be trying a Trident with them in Kent early next week...

I might be wrong cause it's been awhile i moved from London but i would suggest any Turnkey shop.

[Dirty Halo]

Just for my better understanding, how is it that you have the ability to have, borrow, or own both consoles to do this comparison? What was the general context of this situation?

As for dealers making comments, I too have a problem when it starts to sound like pimping, but it seemed Mr. Oram AND Trident posted without comment, but when PMI posted, there was an admonishment. tutt

Lastly I find it odd that by post #69/71 people are generally saying, they are so close, it really comes down to personal preference (this is BEFORE anyone knows what is what) and yet in another thread, people proclaim a winner... Odd

Anyway, please Ciozzo, thanks for your time and providing the "Story" behind all this would give me helpful context>

-andrews

[pianodano]

Originally Posted by Dirty Halo

Just for my better understanding, how is it that you have the ability to have, borrow, or own both consoles to do this comparison? What was the general context of this situation?

As for dealers making comments, I too have a problem when it starts to sound like pimping, but it seemed Mr. Oram AND Trident posted without comment, but when PMI posted, there was an admonishment. tutt

Lastly I find it odd that by post #69/71 people are generally saying, they are so close, it really comes down to personal preference (this is BEFORE anyone knows what is what) and yet in another thread, people proclaim a winner... Odd

Anyway, please Ciozzo, thanks for your time and providing the "Story" behind all this would give me helpful context>

-andrews

+ 1 on wanting to know those facts

[Energie]

Originally Posted by Dirty Halo

Lastly I find it odd that by post #69/71 people are generally saying, they are so close, it really comes down to personal preference (this is BEFORE anyone knows what is what) and yet in another thread, people proclaim a winner... Odd

I think that some people preferred one console for one thing, and liked the other for another test, hence the conclusion that they were close, which I feel they were pretty close in sound overall as far as different consoles go. Even though there was a preference for some tests, the other console didn't need to hang its head in shame so to speak if that makes sence.

[dlmorley]

Originally Posted by Energie

I think that some people preferred one console for one thing, and liked the other for another test, hence the conclusion that they were close, which I feel they were pretty close in sound overall as far as different consoles go. Even though there was a preference for some tests, the other console didn't need to hang its head in shame so to speak if that makes sence.

Agreed. I do think the 8T came out better and I do think most thought the same, but this means little. What matters is when you actually use the desk. The way it responds to what you want a desk to do. In someone else's hands the test would have sounded different.

the short of it is that compared to the mackie 8 busses that were the bargains of their era, I think we are doing pretty well these days..

[hawaii82]

Originally Posted by Ciozzi

Yeah, you don't want to go into an argument, but your post is a good very starting point.

I think I've made a fair comparison, I didn't even express my opinions to be as objective as possible. I think it's time that you manufacturers let the people talk without the need to defend yourself, cause no one was attacking you.

You think you make a good product? with a good customer support ? Then... you've got nothing to fear.

thumbsup

[rekloos]

first of, thanks to the original poster for doing this comparison. i so happen to consider one of these boards
to take out of the digital domain and i'm also looking at
the soundcraft ghost.
so far i'm liking what i'm hearing [based on this test] on
8T better then the Toft but layout wise, the Toft has it
better. does anybody have or now where i can get more
detailed images of the 8T board? can't find anything good
enough and
oram's site [surprisingly] doesn't have much detail as far
as that goes.

[dlmorley]

[rekloos]

dlmorley, i've seen that picture on the web. thanks regardless......
what i'd like to see is a top view with a zoom option where i can actually scroll up and down and be able to read what every knob/fader has next to it. perhaps some
literature with drawings of what everything is and does.
rear panel would be nice to see as well
.





r/_

[ORAM]

I never understand why the anonimity on forums? If you have a name use it .... surely.
There are plenty of pix and details if you mail us your email. Go to john@oram.co.uk with your request and one of my team will respond immediately. There's no obligation and we will not bother you with further mails, unless you request them.
BTW, several posts have indicated that we are more expensive (8T) than the ATB.
This is not the case and was pointed out in Sound on Sound magazine this month.
We do have a much more extensive range of products and many of them are more expensive, but those products have a lot more to offer. We've simply been around a lot longer than PMI.
It's also been suggested that my wife's family make our mixers in Poland which I find quite despicable as two generations of her family (including her mother and father) were killed in the 70's.

Some guys are just bad losers!

JOHN ORAM
TRIDENT AUDIO LTD.,

[Geoff_T]

Originally Posted by Trident Audio

It's also been suggested that my wife's family make our mixers in Poland which I find quite despicable as two generations of her family (including her mother and father) were killed in the 70's.

Some guys are just bad losers!

JOHN ORAM
TRIDENT AUDIO LTD.,

Hi John

With respect, it was pointed out that your then biz partner, David Manley, made this comment.

Where did he get this idea from?

[AnalogBrain]

The lameness of Mr. Oram's and representatives of PMI's child-like banter makes me want to buy neither of their products.

I understand both organizations are well respected in the audio world, but you guys have both been acting like cheese-dicks for the last few years.tutt

Later,
-Neil

[ORAM]

I have spoken to David Manley over the weekend who assures me he never said any of this.
If you know the legal situation between AMH, PMI et al and Trident Audio Ltd, you will know the current progress and outcome and anything said that is considered detrimental to our position will only be reflected in our suit which to date has been found in our favour in several countries.

[rekloos]

Mr Oram, thanks for the tip. i did consider emailing you guys for more info but i was saving that as a last resort.
Honestly, a lot of people including myself are easily put
off by companies who sell a fairly expensive product
but dont have enough info on their website. Really, as a
costumer/consumer i want all the details available in an
instant when i'm considering such an expense. Back and
forth emails should be saved for technical issues and such. So there's a tip for you......
As far as being anonymous, there's nothing to understand about it, some people like their name to be known and some dont. Everybody has their reasons
.
In fact, i find it rather funny that you complain about such things when your products are available worldwide
yet you can't really take a good look at it.Especially when it's coming from a small company and it's not available at your local musical instrument dealer to see
it and touch it. Seriously, little things like these are only
against not for you.

I am interested in your products, regardless, and i agree with on the price: it is cheaper then the ATB.

I'l send you guys an email shortly.