Toft ATB vs Trident 8T : audio samples - Page 3

Ciozzi · 24th February 2008, 01:13 AM

Sorry for making you wait people. BTW I'm done testing, tonight I've finally completed the mixbuss tests and matched all the levels. It took me a lot for two reasons, first the ATB doesn't have center detent pots on line inputs, hence more work to be sure the actual respective levels on the both consoles were the same, plus matching the peaks didn't give me the same subjective (and RMS) volumes and I had to reimport all the samples into another project and match them by phase reversing.

BTW, at the end of the day I realized I had run out of CD's... (tooooooo BAAAAAD). Tomorrow you're gonna have the results guys, just wait for some hours, we're almost done

NathanEldred · 24th February 2008, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ciozzi

Sorry for making you wait people. BTW I'm done testing, tonight I've finally completed the mixbuss tests and matched all the levels. It took me a lot for two reasons, first the ATB doesn't have center detent pots on line inputs, hence more work to be sure the actual respective levels on the both consoles were the same, plus matching the peaks didn't give me the same subjective (and RMS) volumes and I had to reimport all the samples into another project and match them by phase reversing.

BTW, at the end of the day I realized I had run out of CD's... (tooooooo BAAAAAD). Tomorrow you're gonna have the results guys, just wait for some hours, we're almost done

Sounds thorough. Thanks for the hard work.

Trident Audio · 24th February 2008, 10:37 AM

Whatever the result, this has been a lot of precise testing and Ciozzi deserves all our thanks. Having designed the original 80 circuitry in the 70s and used the same in our 8T I am no doubt interested in what you guys prefer. We were compared at the TEC Awards in the US so the result here is important.
I do have an upscaled version of our product on our drawing board to fit between the entry level price of the 8T and our more expensive consoles.

May the best board win!

JOHN ORAM
TRIDENT AUDIO LTD.,

WINNER OF 2007 TEC AWARD, SMALL FORMAT CONSOLE DESIGN
WINNER OF PAR EXCELLENCE AWARD 2007 for TRIDENT 8T-8

jacko · 25th February 2008, 02:06 AM

24 hrs passed... :)
I'm impatient!

Ciozzi · 25th February 2008, 02:54 AM

As I promised, here is the mixbuss test. As you can see besides clipping the buss I've added a couple a samples limited with the PL2 (that is the best limiter I've ever tried so far).

The samples are meant to be:

1: normal gain staging
2: few db of clipping (1-2)
3: audible distortion but still consistent sound
4: deliberate distorion
PL2: sample 1 limited to imitate the deliberate distortion of sample 4

Driving the output on the consoles I tried to match the audible "distortion" on the respective files but as you can see from the PL2 samples, actual limiting was different!

A little note: Clipping level on console A was +19 dBu, on console B more than +26 dBu. I'm not shure but it should be around 28-30 dBu cause even the rosetta 800 with the soft limit engaged went into RED

(from that point to go I had to use the phone output to record the "hotter" samples)

Ciozzi · 25th February 2008, 02:57 AM

and console B...

Croaker · 25th February 2008, 03:08 AM

good job Ciozzi,

listening to mp3,s on computer and headphones right now, so its hard for me to tell a difference.

thanks for your efforts. aloha

Ciozzi · 25th February 2008, 03:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Croaker

good job Ciozzi,

listening to mp3,s on computer and headphones right now, so its hard for me to tell a difference.

thanks for your efforts. aloha

The differences on these samples is more subtle than in the others. BTW the two characters shown in this test are the same you can find in the preamps.
While B is smoother, round with more umpf, A is cleaner with more HF detail.

Anyway if you are interested,I'll post a zip file soon with all the wav files.

Croaker · 25th February 2008, 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ciozzi

The differences on these samples is more subtle than in the others. BTW the two characters shown in this test are the same you can find in the preamps.
While B is smoother, round with more umpf, A is cleaner with more HF detail.

Anyway if you are interested,I'll post a zip file soon with all the wav files.

cool thanks,

they both sound pretty good, all comes down to personal preference.

again great job

aloha

Ciozzi · 25th February 2008, 03:26 AM

Listen to these last files and let me know when you want the results

ENJOY!

Mitch Deason · 25th February 2008, 04:58 AM

Yeah.. getting tough to pick differences, now.

As the gain went up, I thought maybe I was hearing A retain a hair more in the upper mids.

Judging just from these samples, it seems clear that one could do good stuff with either board.

NathanEldred · 25th February 2008, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trident Audio

I do have an upscaled version of our product on our drawing board to fit between the entry level price of the 8T and our more expensive consoles.

That sounds like it would be nice John.

lostinmusic · 25th February 2008, 02:43 PM

I'm considering one of these desks as it happens. Could you post the original audio file? B sounds bassier, maybe punchier and A sounds more focussed by comparison but without the original audio I don't know which is telling the truth.
Thanks
Neil.

tchristen · 25th February 2008, 02:59 PM

I like the Guitars on B better..they seem to be a little more full and low end.

The snares sound almost the same to me.. Could not decide between what one is better to my taste.

The vocals in A tended to sound a little better where B sounded a little more midrange.

Overall I would go with console B.

Ciozzi · 25th February 2008, 03:30 PM

I was listening to the mixbuss mp3's earlier and I realized that all the subtleties I could hear on the wav's were gone.

I've uploaded a zip file of this test with all the original wave files at this link:

ciozzi.altervista.org/mixbuss test.rar

Copy the adress and paste it!

I'll provide all the other wave samples as well, just give me some time to find a free web space and upload them.

jacko · 25th February 2008, 03:31 PM

I have heaphones only (hd280) at the moment, but when I listen to the distorted ones I much prefer B.

Ciozzi · 25th February 2008, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jacko

I have heaphones only (hd280) at the moment, but when I listen to the distorted ones I much prefer B.

Download the zip file with the wave's. There's much more noticeable difference to me in the original samples, especially in the low end that the mp3's just cut out!

Larrysings · 25th February 2008, 03:53 PM

Love console B. A seems a step down in excitement and emotion.

jacko · 25th February 2008, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ciozzi

Listen to these last files and let me know when you want the results

ENJOY!

let's find out now! :)

Mitch Deason · 25th February 2008, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ciozzi

Download the zip file with the wave's. There's much more noticeable difference to me in the original samples, especially in the low end that the mp3's just cut out!

Yup.. maybe it is a little more obvious in the wavs. To me B is still a little heavier in the lower mids. The resulting mix packs a little more punch.

All this this seems consistent with comments about the individual tracks.

indie · 25th February 2008, 07:45 PM

we want to know! we want to know! btw.. I like B.

Ciozzi · 25th February 2008, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by indie

we want to know! we want to know! btw.. I like B.

Yes, you've waited enough... so here's the answer

Console A : Toft ATB
Console B : Trident Audio 8T

Now I hope we're not going into an argument

Larrysings · 25th February 2008, 07:53 PM

I like B's mix buss and A's eq.
Thanks for the results. I have an ATB.
The ATB sounds great, the Trident seems to have that little something extra in the mix.

Ciozzi · 25th February 2008, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larrysings

Damn trannies sound so good.
Thanks for the results. I have an ATB and now I want a Trident.

I don't think there are trannies in the 8T. I believe that the sonic difference between the two consoles comes from the different chipsets.

The ATB uses last generation Burr Brown op amps, with extended frequency response and a lot of detail in the very high end. The 8T uses TL0 series chips that sound "warmer" cause of their limited response at the top end.

Which one is better ? Well... as usual.. it depends...

I have got a preference myself, but I'm not gonna say it for now. I don't want anyone to think that I favoured one console over the other, cause that would completely wrong, I did my best to be as objective as possible.

Now it's your turn again people... let me know what you think

kingofswing · 25th February 2008, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ciozzi

I don't think there are trannies in the 8T. I believe that the sonic difference between the two consoles comes from the different chipsets.

The ATB uses last generation Burr Brown op amps, with extended frequency response and a lot of detail in the very high end. The 8T uses TL0 series chips that sound "warmer" cause of their limited response at the top end.

Which one is better ? Well... as usual.. it depends...

I have got a preference myself, but I'm not gonna say it for now. I don't want anyone to think that I favoured one console over the other, cause that would completely wrong, I did my best to be as objective as possible.

Now it's your turn again people... let me know what you think

Aside from the sound (the results are out and comparisons can still be made);

Which of the two desks has a better build quality, like pots, faders, jacks, chassis, and overall finish?

My understanding so far is that the Toft is made in China, whilst the Trident is made in England. But which has the better build, and would give the user full confidence in using the desk for long sessions, etc?

Ciozzi · 25th February 2008, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingofswing

Aside from the sound (the results are out and comparisons can still be made);

Which of the two desks has a better build quality, like pots, faders, jacks, chassis, and overall finish?

My understanding so far is that the Toft is made in China, whilst the Trident is made in England. But which has the better build, and would give the user full confidence in using the desk for long sessions, etc?

The ATB is much more robust and very well built and every knob and button feels top notch with the exception of the faders that feel a little cheap (I think that the newer consoles are being shipped with new faders) . The potentiometers on the 8T feel wiggly, and every now and then some buttons tend to get out from their housing, BTW the faders are seriously good.

Even if the construction quality of the ATB is better I feel myself working more confortably with the 8T cause of its layout. The Eq's are placed right over the master fader and easly accessible without getting off the chair. I have to mention that I don't use the AUX sends so much, and what I said could be the opposite for someone who uses them a lot.

jacko · 25th February 2008, 09:34 PM

thank God, because I prefer 8T because of the look and layout - and it sounds better to my ears too :)

Energie · 25th February 2008, 09:51 PM

Thank you for your awesome work and time in this comparison!!

indie · 25th February 2008, 09:53 PM

Thanks for doing this.

What I found interesting about the mix buss test was that when driven, B's kick drum was more present sounding...not just bigger.

Ciozzi · 25th February 2008, 10:02 PM

What do you think about the way the PL2 limits compared to the consoles ?

To my ears sounds smoother but too soft for some duties. I have to admit it's been the first time I clipped the master buss on these consoles and I was not expecting such good results!

24th February 2008, 10:37 AM	#63
Trident Audio Gear interested Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: London, England Posts: 15	Well done, Ciozzi Whatever the result, this has been a lot of precise testing and Ciozzi deserves all our thanks. Having designed the original 80 circuitry in the 70s and used the same in our 8T I am no doubt interested in what you guys prefer. We were compared at the TEC Awards in the US so the result here is important. I do have an upscaled version of our product on our drawing board to fit between the entry level price of the 8T and our more expensive consoles. May the best board win! JOHN ORAM TRIDENT AUDIO LTD., WINNER OF 2007 TEC AWARD, SMALL FORMAT CONSOLE DESIGN WINNER OF PAR EXCELLENCE AWARD 2007 for TRIDENT 8T-8 __________________ TRIDENT AUDIO LTD http://www.tridentaudio.co.uk info@tridentaudio.com

25th February 2008, 02:06 AM	#64
jacko Gear addict Join Date: May 2004 Location: London, Islington Posts: 310	24 hrs passed... :) I'm impatient! __________________ www.milaszewski.com www.chimpstudio.com http://www.myspace.com/jacekmilaszewski

25th February 2008, 03:08 AM	#67
Croaker Gear addict Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: maui, hawaii Posts: 343	good job Ciozzi, listening to mp3,s on computer and headphones right now, so its hard for me to tell a difference. thanks for your efforts. aloha __________________ Tom Lelli ____________________________________ "you are what you do, not what you say you do"

25th February 2008, 02:59 PM	#74
tchristen Gear Head Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Minnesota Posts: 42	I like the Guitars on B better..they seem to be a little more full and low end. The snares sound almost the same to me.. Could not decide between what one is better to my taste. The vocals in A tended to sound a little better where B sounded a little more midrange. Overall I would go with console B. __________________ Ted Christensen 320-491-6422 www.cellardoorstudios.net (opening soon!)

25th February 2008, 03:31 PM	#76
jacko Gear addict Join Date: May 2004 Location: London, Islington Posts: 310	I have heaphones only (hd280) at the moment, but when I listen to the distorted ones I much prefer B. __________________ www.milaszewski.com www.chimpstudio.com http://www.myspace.com/jacekmilaszewski

24th February 2008, 01:13 AM	#61
Ciozzi Gear maniac Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 273	Sorry for making you wait people. BTW I'm done testing, tonight I've finally completed the mixbuss tests and matched all the levels. It took me a lot for two reasons, first the ATB doesn't have center detent pots on line inputs, hence more work to be sure the actual respective levels on the both consoles were the same, plus matching the peaks didn't give me the same subjective (and RMS) volumes and I had to reimport all the samples into another project and match them by phase reversing. BTW, at the end of the day I realized I had run out of CD's... (tooooooo BAAAAAD). Tomorrow you're gonna have the results guys, just wait for some hours, we're almost done

25th February 2008, 03:26 AM	#70
Ciozzi Gear maniac Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 273	Listen to these last files and let me know when you want the results ENJOY!

25th February 2008, 04:58 AM	#71
Mitch Deason Gear Head Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Chicago Posts: 38	Yeah.. getting tough to pick differences, now. As the gain went up, I thought maybe I was hearing A retain a hair more in the upper mids. Judging just from these samples, it seems clear that one could do good stuff with either board.

25th February 2008, 02:43 PM	#73
lostinmusic Gear nut Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: London Posts: 118	I'm considering one of these desks as it happens. Could you post the original audio file? B sounds bassier, maybe punchier and A sounds more focussed by comparison but without the original audio I don't know which is telling the truth. Thanks Neil.

25th February 2008, 03:30 PM	#75
Ciozzi Gear maniac Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 273	I was listening to the mixbuss mp3's earlier and I realized that all the subtleties I could hear on the wav's were gone. I've uploaded a zip file of this test with all the original wave files at this link: ciozzi.altervista.org/mixbuss test.rar Copy the adress and paste it! I'll provide all the other wave samples as well, just give me some time to find a free web space and upload them.

25th February 2008, 03:53 PM	#78
Larrysings Gear maniac Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: New York City Posts: 161	Love console B. A seems a step down in excitement and emotion. __________________ Larry Hammel Vocalist/Producer/CEO Deepwave Music Productions http://www.deepwavemusic.com Long Island City/NYC

25th February 2008, 07:45 PM	#81
indie Lives for gear Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: C-ville area VA Posts: 1,203	we want to know! we want to know! btw.. I like B. __________________ rock on, Micah http://www.micahmixer.com http://www.myspace.com/wilshires

25th February 2008, 07:53 PM	#83
Larrysings Gear maniac Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: New York City Posts: 161	I like B's mix buss and A's eq. Thanks for the results. I have an ATB. The ATB sounds great, the Trident seems to have that little something extra in the mix. __________________ Larry Hammel Vocalist/Producer/CEO Deepwave Music Productions http://www.deepwavemusic.com Long Island City/NYC

25th February 2008, 09:34 PM	#87
jacko Gear addict Join Date: May 2004 Location: London, Islington Posts: 310	thank God, because I prefer 8T because of the look and layout - and it sounds better to my ears too :) __________________ www.milaszewski.com www.chimpstudio.com http://www.myspace.com/jacekmilaszewski

25th February 2008, 09:51 PM	#88
Energie Lives for gear Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 660	Thank you for your awesome work and time in this comparison!!

25th February 2008, 09:53 PM	#89
indie Lives for gear Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: C-ville area VA Posts: 1,203	Thanks for doing this. What I found interesting about the mix buss test was that when driven, B's kick drum was more present sounding...not just bigger. __________________ rock on, Micah http://www.micahmixer.com http://www.myspace.com/wilshires

25th February 2008, 10:02 PM	#90
Ciozzi Gear maniac Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 273	What do you think about the way the PL2 limits compared to the consoles ? To my ears sounds smoother but too soft for some duties. I have to admit it's been the first time I clipped the master buss on these consoles and I was not expecting such good results!